[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I have owned a few turbo 4s in my past. NVH and reliability issue make them a no go in my future. Also, tunability of a 4 on stock internals is not close to what it could be on a 6 or 8. My choices for a performance car are;

So, a highly reliable turbo 4 making 460-470 hp and acceptable NVH? Good luck with that lol. 400 LB-FT+ of reliable torque in a turbo 4... gl with that again.

Respectful of your experience, the Subaru community has been pumping out over 400lb/ft (at the wheels in an AWD vehicle) on stock internal 2.5 liter engines for about a decade now. And those blocks (ej25 I believe) are using ancient technology and flow like crap, so they either run out of steam up top OR they produce well over 400awhp with massive turbo lag due to the size of the turbo needed.

Mercedes new little 2.0 liter turbo is already putting down near 400 crank hp/torque with just a tune (basing this off renntech tuning).

Personally I'd rather see a truly high-revving little number, like an 8,000-9,000 rpm 2.0 liter turbo engine that somehow maintains boost at the top-end.

Anyway, i get your comments on NVH. I owned a K20z3 honda engine that was revved out to 8300 rpms everyday and it really did not exhibit VH (and it was pretty good sounding for a 4-banger), so I guess my prejudice has been lightened.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Respectful of your experience, the Subaru community has been pumping out over 400lb/ft (at the wheels in an AWD vehicle) on stock internal 2.5 liter engines for about a decade now. And those blocks (ej25 I believe) are using ancient technology and flow like crap, so they either run out of steam up top OR they produce well over 400awhp with massive turbo lag due to the size of the turbo needed.

Yes, that's the problem... one or the other. IF you take the TQ, you will lose the top end. If you take the top end... what's the point of running a turbo motor?

Mercedes new little 2.0 liter turbo is already putting down near 400 crank hp/torque with just a tune (basing this off renntech tuning).

Yes but from I have read, that engine is nearly universally reviewed as crap.

Personally I'd rather see a truly high-revving little number, like an 8,000-9,000 rpm 2.0 liter turbo engine that somehow maintains boost at the top-end.

Sure, but I still don't see how any of this would be an improvement over what already exists.

Anyway, i get your comments on NVH. I owned a K20z3 honda engine that was revved out to 8300 rpms everyday and it really did not exhibit VH (and it was pretty good sounding for a 4-banger), so I guess my prejudice has been lightened.

Fair Enough

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Consider that the i-8 has a three-cylinder engine...

And that the quickest BMWs have four-cylinder engines (S1000rr)

We are not being serious here right now, are we?

We are comparing a car that is an experiment based solely on efficiency and a motorcycle to what is a definitive drivers car, right?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

There are some rumors that the next generation BMW I6, the B58, is only coming as .40i in the 5er series and bigger cars, and that the .35i gets at this generation change from N to B the top of the line B48 with 300+ HP !?

Not happening. The B58 is all but 100% confirmed for the F3x LCI next year.

Regarding the B58 being associated with the *40i badge only, well, it is certainly possible that BMW will use the opportunity to bump the F3x models to 330i/430i and 340i/440i to keep pace with Mercedes new W205 C300 and C400 designations.

The problem with cutting cylinders is who wants to be the first to take the step? Ok, sure the F8x will see the turbo I6 go against Mercedes C63 turbo V8 but that's been the case in past generations too (minus the turbo-chargers) and we should still expect expect other competitors like Audi and Infiniti to be six cylinders just like the M3/M4. With your bread and butter cars like the 3 and 5 series you can't necessarily afford to take such risks. That's why I mention the need for a hybrid power train. Granted the new E class I6 is not expected to have a hybrid variant, necessarily. But it is rumored to be over 400hp still, and plus other players in this segment such as the Lexus GS and Cadillac CTS are already flying sans V8. No one in the hotly contested entry lux segment where the 3 Series reigns is giving up the six yet. Though Volvo is in the process now, but then they are moving their entire fleet to I4 only.

[Maddict3]

how about we enjoy the new engine first? lol

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Yes but from I have read, that engine is nearly universally reviewed as crap.

I don't know about all that now, but even if so, you have to give it time. Let's see how VAG does with the the new 400hp iteration of the EA888 coming in the Golf R400 and quite possibly in the RS3 and TT RS as well. I have a feeling it's going to be a winner.

Think about that, by the way. A Golf with just 25hp less than the F8x, AWD, and probably weighing the same or less. It's going to be built in tiny quantities and not sold in the US, but it still has potential to really change the game. And the RS3 and TT RS will of course be more widely available.

Originally Posted by ASAP

We are not being serious here right now, are we?

We are comparing a car that is an experiment based solely on efficiency and a motorcycle to what is a definitive drivers car, right?

If you look beyond the car and just consider the power train, it is a much more serious proposition. Replace the the I3 with a ~300hp I4 and you have a future bread-and-butter BMW power train. The M3 swaps in a 200hp/L I4 perhaps, while the M5 uses a 200hp/L I6.

[tooch]

and I was hoping the next one would get the bump up to a 3.2l

[ybbiz34]

Recently, AMG chief Tobias Moers was asked if there would ever be a 6-cylinder C63 AMG.

His response: Never.

I think a turbo 4-cylinder in something like the M2 would be cool though. The A45/CLA45/GLA45 have been successful with that formula thus far.

[JoeFromPA]

I would love a manufacturer in the $60-90k range to put out a small displacement v8 or (heaven forbid) v12. Something in the 2.9-4.0 liter range (depending upon # of cylinders)

I know, friction loss and manufacturing expense means it doesn't make sense....but damnit, I'm an enthusiast. None of my decisions make sense.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Recently, AMG chief Tobias Moers was asked if there would ever be a 6-cylinder C63 AMG.

His response: Never.

I believe him. Now, a six cylinder C32 AMG on the other hand...

Ok, so let's call it a C55 since even the I4 is *45 now.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I would love a manufacturer in the $60-90k range to put out a small displacement v8 or (heaven forbid) v12. Something in the 2.9-4.0 liter range (depending upon # of cylinders)

I know, friction loss and manufacturing expense means it doesn't make sense....but damnit, I'm an enthusiast. None of my decisions make sense.

The next C63 AMG is going to fall within that price range.

And it will have a 4.0L biturbo V8.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I believe him. Now, a six cylinder C32 AMG on the other hand...

Ok, so let's call it a C55 since even the I4 is *45 now.

Haha good point. But the 63 moniker will remain attached to the C-Class because of its value. According to AMG, anyway.

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I don't know about all that now, but even if so, you have to give it time. Let's see how VAG does with the the new 400hp iteration of the EA888 coming in the Golf R400 and quite possibly in the RS3 and TT RS as well. I have a feeling it's going to be a winner.

Think about that, by the way. A Golf with just 25hp less than the F8x, AWD, and probably weighing the same or less. It's going to be built in tiny quantities and not sold in the US, but it still has potential to really change the game. And the RS3 and TT RS will of course be more widely available.

VAG has confirmed that the R400 even can get more than 400hp !

And know just consider an Jetta R400 !?

[kyleb350]

Originally Posted by tooch

and I was hoping the next one would get the bump up to a 3.2l

I'd love for them to do this so they could get away with using slightly larger turbos and eliminate that HP plateau.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

VAG has confirmed that the R400 even can get more than 400hp !

Yeah I saw that. It does not surprise me considering they showed the engine with 420hp in the a Gen III TT concept, which may very well be previewing the new TT RS.

And know just consider an Jetta R400 !?

Very unlikely IMHO. But what seems at least plausible is a CC with this engine.

[Suave]

I have to say Porsche does an amazing job with smaller engines than the competition extracting a lot of power, good mpg, and performance and nobody complains so why not with BMW. I have to agree with other posters that as long as I get the performance and feel that I want from a car I don't care how many cylinders are under the hood. As far as the sound the new M4 reminds me a lot of my Boxster S Spyder with sport exhausts. It sounded great and the farting was a lot of fun on downshifts. Bring on the Gasx

[Cortexiphan]

Next M3 will probably be a hybrid with a 4 cylinder engine in the back, and an electric motor at the front.
Or it can very well be another I6

[///M Power-Belgium]

True ! I had today this confirmation also by Email >http://www.telegraaf.nl/autovisie/au...ogelijk__.html
And after the 4-cylinder they throw a coffee grinder under the hood !

[hwelvaar]

Originally Posted by JRV

I wonder how the public would perceive a 4 cylinder M3 starting at $65k. The price better drop!

Well the i8 sells for a lot more $, with less cylinders and less HP.

So there you have it...

[Koldun]

I'm sure the next M will be some 4-cylinder hybrid electric craziness. I'm sure it will be awesome. I'm sure people will bemoan that it's less raw than the old skewl twin turbo six.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by Suave

I have to say Porsche does an amazing job with smaller engines than the competition extracting a lot of power, good mpg, and performance and nobody complains so why not with BMW. I have to agree with other posters that as long as I get the performance and feel that I want from a car I don't care how many cylinders are under the hood. As far as the sound the new M4 reminds me a lot of my Boxster S Spyder with sport exhausts. It sounded great and the farting was a lot of fun on downshifts. Bring on the Gasx

Porsche uses high strung N/A 6 cylinders. that sound and feel nothing like what all these new small turbo engines are heading. they make some very nice engines. that new GT3 is a N/A 6 cylinder making allmost 500HP with a 9k RPM redline is NUTS.

i wish i was like you though. i wish i could say i dont care how many cylinders the car has. it would be easy to just go with the times. you will make a perfect f80 buyer

[Robert]

I will buy one if they downsize the 3 to e30 dimensions with body made out of carbon fiber tub and a healthy engine output at 300hp