[Soul_Glo]

Absolutely hate 4 pots and 4 pot turbos especially just sound like angry yobs!

[Soul_Glo]

Originally Posted by Eichler1

Thank you.

I recently said goodbye to an E93 M3 in favor of a 2013 mustang GT drop top (I live in one of the sunniest climates on earth,and I do like putting the top down). I know: many if not most most readers here may not relate to that decision. But my experience so far is that the Coyote-equipped GT is about 25% more efficient than the M3 in highway driving (the advantage is noticeable, though less pronounced, in town). The cars have very different personalities, driving styles and finish and trim levels, but the better trim levels in Mustangs, while nothing like those in a premium bmw, are pleasant enough places to spend time. What I like most is the Coyote's dual personality. You can drive around town burbling along in a totally relaxed manner, but swing the tach past about 3500 and the thing just rips. And ohhh, the sound!

Agreed. Two different personalities all together. Like cheese and chalk. American muscle vs German Engineering. Can't wait for the all new mustang... We're getting a limited number to pre-order over here in the UK. Looks stunning!

[jonasaurus]

Too far away to get upset about any possible downsize in cylinders.

Although not surprising if it goes that way given the trend to seek out greener options, could be a good thing with the use of ERS-type technology, could allow for some interesting power unit setups

[georgere]

Originally Posted by ASAP

8 to 6 is one thing. 6 to 4 is where I look for an exit sign.

+ 1
But it will sell

[Bahn360Photo]

if M division can squeeze 500 hp of out of turbo 4 plus make it sound real then why not.

Here is what some of you are missing, 4 turbo plus electric motor => i8

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by Bahn360Photo

if M division can squeeze 500 hp of out of turbo 4 plus make it sound real then why not.

Here is what some of you are missing, 4 turbo plus electric motor => i8

Yes but i8 sells for 140k and has performance probably on par w the current M3, its hard to believe you can in 6 years, take away CF and other luxuries of the i8 and wind up at a 70k car with good performance, not saying its impossible, just saying alot of people are skeptical

[Envyscorpio]

Won't happen. It's like salary.

LOWER Salary but better benefits at equal value. How does that sound? :P
A turbo 4cyl sounds like a good candidate for M2 or Z2. Cylinder cut off maybe for the next M3?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Yes but i8 sells for 140k and has performance probably on par w the current M3,

Exactly what I was about to reply with.

And the ICE in that setup is only a ~230hp I3. An I4 with the same specific power output would be over 350hp and BMW has already said they will hit 200hp/L in the relatively near future.

its hard to believe you can in 6 years, take away CF and other luxuries of the i8 and wind up at a 70k car with good performance, not saying its impossible, just saying alot of people are skeptical

I still think it's going to be somewhat longer than six years.

I don't see M Division taking the lead on the hybrid powertrain. It's not a cost effective way to make use of the technology. They need to be able to use the same formula as today - take the series car and modify it for performance. Once we have hybrid 3 and 5 series being sold as the volume product (not the special ActiveHybrid models they are today), only then the door opens for M Division to go that route as well.

[M3ryder55]

I'm out. I'm already second guessing this thing

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Yes but i8 sells for 140k and has performance probably on par w the current M3, its hard to believe you can in 6 years, take away CF and other luxuries of the i8 and wind up at a 70k car with good performance, not saying its impossible, just saying alot of people are skeptical

I don't think an I8 even has the performance of the current m3... it's 0-60 times is good because of the full availability of tq near instantly. If you run a 60-130 of that car, it really will not be even on par with a current gen m3.

[Evoixiaoni]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Good comments... but you missed a few things...

1) How reliable r high strung 4 cylinder motors? I know plenty of Evo, MS3 and STI owners and the answer is not very.
2) How much wtq can a 4 banger handle? The answer is not much reliably. Better yet, how much wtq can a 4 banger on the stock turbo even make and does the curve look nearly as good? Not even close to what a 6 or 8 could have.
3) How laggy is a 4 banger turbo? Much more so than a 6 or 8 would be unless you pair it with some sort of electric / hybrid system?
4) NVH on 4 cylinder motors... I simply think we r not there.

There would need to be 7 years of very significant leaps in turbo tech and general engine advancement before this can seriously happen. I know no one that speaks wonders of that CLA motor you speak of... in fact; when reviewers compared to the M235i's N55... it was actually considered pure JUNK.

Also... purely hypothetical... but this would need to be a 4 banger that makes 100 hp more than that CLA motor. I do not believe that BMW can do that reliable; definitely not without electric pairing. I don't think in 7 years the technology of 1 million dollar cars will trickle into 75K ones.

1) Reliability has everything to do with the tune itself. The issue with the tuning industry, in general, is that it is like the "Wild Wild West" out there when it comes to tuners. I agree with you, there are many cars out there that are tuned by amateurs, and the results speak for themselves in terms of longevity of the motor.

2) I'm not too sure where you have gathered all your ideas and philosophies on 4 cylinder motors, but they can handle GOBS of torque. With a quality tune the engine isn't even the breaking point (4G63 I'm referring to in this case). The clutch, transfer case, rear diff, and transmission are more of a concern then the properly tuned motor. Trust me when I tell you, these little 4 bangers that I had been around for 8+ years will do a better job at breaking your neck then most cars out there will. Including all the 6 and 8 cylinder motors. The v8s were always my favorite to upset in the real world.

You would be shocked at what stock turbos can do. As a matter of fact there are quite a few stock turbo Evos running 10 seconds in the quarter mile. I will tell you right now, BMW was very wise in choosing Mitsu turbos for the new Ms as well. They clearly have done their research.

3) We are referencing older motors here for the sake of this discussion, I want to be very clear with you. The point is to speak on behalf of the possibilities of the newer technology when applied to a 4 cylinder turbo motor, and what that new technology can do in combination with battery/hybrid power.

You can create a 4 cylinder motor that utilizes a "larger" stock turbo. Volumetric Efficiency is what matters here and the reason why a larger turbo would be beneficial (Cooler, more condensed air), which doesn't need to be Overworked to provide additional power. Nor will it fall flat on its face like most stock turbos do in the upper ranges of the RPMs. This will provide the incredibly flat torque curve we all wish for on the street/track. Paired with electric battery power, which will ADD horsepower to the entire combination, it will fulfill the duties of torque-fill early on, where yes, you will with out a shadow of doubt, experience turbo lag in the 4 cylinder turbo motor ONLY application (Non hybrid).

4) NVH was never a topic of concern when it came to these motors.

The CLA Motor itself wasn't Ever the primary concern of this car, it was the transmission. Like every other Mercedes. Not hating on Mercedes, but come on now, get with the times and fit in a proper auto/dct type clutch in there already.

We are all entitled to our own opinions. Where you believe our automotive technology will be in 7 years, is not even close to where I believe it will be. The only thing I can share with you are my own personal experiences with 4 cylinder vehicles. I didn't borrow these thoughts and ideas from somebody else's experiences. I have seen, experienced, and applied many MANY combinations with a turbo 4 cylinder setup. Also, I just want to reiterate that the entire point of my first post was to imply that yes, BMW would be using Hybrid Tech with the upcoming M in combination with a 4 cylinder turbo.

Hypothetical:

4 cylinder turbo Hybrid Motor
350+ hp developed by the 4 cyliinder turbo petrol motor (Simple and completely SAFE as a DD)
100+ hp developed by battery/hybrid technology

Clearly all the cars are headed this direction. You ask me how in the world would BMW be able to create this Million $$ technology and fit it into a $75K package? Well...

#1 The Majority of expenses incurred on the development of new technology happen at the very beginning, because it is well....New.
#2 So far I have seen a $125K vehicle created by BMW that contains the Exact technology we are referencing. It's called the i8.
#3 There is this other $45K car that BMW recently rolled out as well, it's called the i3.

I'm not trying to be funny here, but it's the truth. 7 years down the road will BMW be able to figure out how to combine a 4 cylinder turbo with electric power? Hmmm...my answer with absolute certainty is, Yes.

[Evoixiaoni]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Good comments... but you missed a few things...

1) How reliable r high strung 4 cylinder motors? I know plenty of Evo, MS3 and STI owners and the answer is not very.
2) How much wtq can a 4 banger handle? The answer is not much reliably. Better yet, how much wtq can a 4 banger on the stock turbo even make and does the curve look nearly as good? Not even close to what a 6 or 8 could have.
3) How laggy is a 4 banger turbo? Much more so than a 6 or 8 would be unless you pair it with some sort of electric / hybrid system?
4) NVH on 4 cylinder motors... I simply think we r not there.

There would need to be 7 years of very significant leaps in turbo tech and general engine advancement before this can seriously happen. I know no one that speaks wonders of that CLA motor you speak of... in fact; when reviewers compared to the M235i's N55... it was actually considered pure JUNK.

Also... purely hypothetical... but this would need to be a 4 banger that makes 100 hp more than that CLA motor. I do not believe that BMW can do that reliable; definitely not without electric pairing. I don't think in 7 years the technology of 1 million dollar cars will trickle into 75K ones.

Just for reference, here is a dyno graph of a twin scroll 61mm turbo on a stock block, pump gas, 2.0ltr 4 cylinder motor. When it comes to dyno numbers, for all you dyno queens out there (Haha), they mean nothing to me. Trap speed in the quarter mile, for example, is a far better determinant to over all power than a dyno number. This was a pull on a Mustang Dyno, which in the dyno world, is a very low reading dyno. But for reference, this specific car trapped 124mph in the quarter mile.

This is clearly NOT an apples to apples comparison, but it is a way to demonstrate what a 4 cylinder motors curve can look like with a Large Turbo setup. BMW would NOT need to use a turbo charger of this size, nor would they need to use a twin scroll design, because they will have electric battery power to fill in all the gaps of the initial turbo lag.

Where we used a twin scroll design here, we wanted to for this setup to aid initial turbo lag on the street. Where twin scroll designs help with spool, they will suffer on the back end, or rather, the upper reaches of the RPM curve. BMW can use an open volute turbo setup here, paired with electric battery power, and yes the car would be an absolute street monster. Love it or hate it, if it does happen, which obviously there a HUGE chances it will, it can be a significant street machine.

And to GRUESOM3, in the next 5 years, yes that probably will be the case, but I believe in 10 years, there will be COMPLETE silence on the streets except the sound of tires!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I don't think an I8 even has the performance of the current m3... it's 0-60 times is good because of the full availability of tq near instantly. If you run a 60-130 of that car, it really will not be even on par with a current gen m3.

The I8 has an inline three cylinder with 235hp. We are talking about an I4 for the M3 with at least 300hp and possibly up to 400hp. The point of the I8 example is to demonstrate the type of technology that could be used for a future M model, not to suggest we literally drop the exact same (years old, by that time) powertrain into the M car.

[ASAP]

@evoixiaoni

I agree with many points that you made other than there is a ton of assumption in there about the pairing of the motor with an electric system and how far 4 bangers can still come.

The trap speed, turbo sizing and VE comments are spot on but once again... there will need to be a performance pairing that currently doesn't exist to get rid of that lag and improve responsiveness. The dyno curve you posted is incredible for the track but I do not want to drive that car on the street. I'm an FP green type of guy ... I am sure you understand it's TQ constraints on a 4g63. The electric pairing is merely an assumption at this point. Also, I highly question paying 80K for a 4 banger... that may be a mindset but its a pretty strong one just as I would not buy a 528i with a 4 banger.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The I8 has an inline three cylinder with 235hp. We are talking about an I4 for the M3 with at least 300hp and possibly up to 400hp. The point of the I8 example is to demonstrate the type of technology that could be used for a future M model, not to suggest we literally drop the exact same (years old, by that time) powertrain into the M car.

Optimal setup would be a 330-340 HP 4 a'la mildly tuned evo and an electric motor with another 120 HP. I would keep displacement around 2.6L to make things somewhat easier and figure out a way to get it to rev high.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by ASAP

@evoixiaoni

I agree with many points that you made other than there is a ton of assumption in there about the pairing of the motor with an electric system and how far 4 bangers can still come.

The trap speed, turbo sizing and VE comments are spot on but once again... there will need to be a performance pairing that currently doesn't exist to get rid of that lag and improve responsiveness. The dyno curve you posted is incredible for the track but I do not want to drive that car on the street. I'm an FP green type of guy ... I am sure you understand it's TQ constraints on a 4g63. The electric pairing is merely an assumption at this point. Also, I highly question paying 80K for a 4 banger... that may be a mindset but its a pretty strong one just as I would not buy a 528i with a 4 banger.

No one can say for sure what BMW will do, of course, but what about the i3? It's not performance oriented, but it demonstrates that BMW can incorporate hybrid technology in to an affordable package.

From a technology standpoint, I see two likely paths forward for higher specific output:

1) Higher boost levels (larger turbochargers) on smaller displacement engines, coupled with electric components for torque-fill. Look for a ~2.0L I4 with >1.8bar of boost pushing even higher specific output than Merc's M133 and a smallish (compared to the current crop of hybrid-hypercars) electric assist motor pushing 75-100 HP.

2) Electrical-scavenging/electric-assisted turbochargers. These exist, but we've not seen one in a production car. The energy recovery systems on current generation F1 cars have a generator unit attached to the turbocharger (this is called the MGU-H). This allows them to directly generate electricity from what would normally be wasted exhaust energy. Instead of a wastegate, they allow all of the exhaust energy to drive the turbocharger, and regulate turbine-speed/boost level with electrical charging resistance. This keeps turbine pressures up, even under moderate engine use, which alleviates lag. It's also possible to run current through a generator in the reverse direction in order to spool the turbo (they don't currently do this in F1).

IMO, option 1 is more likely. Option 2 involves some very advanced turbo technology that is complex, and difficult to make reliable. We've seen other complex turbocharger technology fail in the marketplace, giving way to related, but less complicated advancements. I'm talking about variable geometry turbos versus dual-inlet geometry turbos. Dual-inlet geometry (branded TwinScroll) turbos beat variable geometry turbos on expense and complexity.

We also have to consider that, arguably, all-electric is the future. Investing in turbocharger technology is investing in the near future. Investing in electric drive train components is investing in the long term.

[bradleyland]

I think I might have omitted a third (and most disappointing) option.

BorgWarner has a system called eBooster that is basically a twin-sequential turbo setup where one of the turbos is electrically driven. I deem this one the most disappointing because it's a half-measure, IMO. In order for it to make sense from an efficiency perspective, you'd need to drive it from recovered energy, rather than drawing from engine power to push it. Otherwise it's just an electrically-driven supercharger (which directly robs engine power). If you're going to introduce the weight of an energy recovery system, the most complete solution is to use a hybrid drive train.

In a hybrid drive train, the genset is directly attached to the drive line; usually an electric motor. In that case, it makes the most sense to send recovered energy back through those motors, rather than using it to drive a turbo.

I suspect the eBooster system could be implemented more cheaply though. BMW could change to lithium batteries, increase the cell capacity, and use their current alternator driven energy recovery systems. This system attaches the alternator to the serpentine belt system at the front of the engine. The recovered energy is far less, because the system only works while the car is coasting, and most of the energy is eaten up by engine braking.

A lot of people are excited about the electric-assisted turbo setup, but I'm skeptical.

[Evoixiaoni]

Originally Posted by ASAP

@evoixiaoni

I agree with many points that you made other than there is a ton of assumption in there about the pairing of the motor with an electric system and how far 4 bangers can still come.

The trap speed, turbo sizing and VE comments are spot on but once again... there will need to be a performance pairing that currently doesn't exist to get rid of that lag and improve responsiveness. The dyno curve you posted is incredible for the track but I do not want to drive that car on the street. I'm an FP green type of guy ... I am sure you understand it's TQ constraints on a 4g63. The electric pairing is merely an assumption at this point. Also, I highly question paying 80K for a 4 banger... that may be a mindset but its a pretty strong one just as I would not buy a 528i with a 4 banger.

Agreed on my assumptions, they are just that. I have nothing else to go off in this discussion other than the "Assumption" from BMW's Head of Project Management that the future M motor could be a 4 cylinder, my own personal experiences with a 4 cylinder motor, and what metrics would need to be applied to ensure the same quality, character, and meaning behind a ///M car.

It doesn't take a technological genius to understand the complexity of having a 4cylinder ~2.0liter motor spool up a turbo charger (large or small) from the onset of pushing the gas pedal to the floor. In the real world, we all know this is next to impossible without some SERIOUS advancement in turbo/hybrid technology. The "lag" will, without a doubt, be apparent in the brand new M3 as well. BMW already knows that.

So, my assumptions are just that, assumptions. You have made that clear and I have as well. Unless BMW is willing to spend significant money on the development of some crazy hybrid turbo technology or create an anti-lag turbo motor (this would go against the Green Emissions direction however ;-)), which they probably won't (like you have stated previously), they will absolutely combine the technology that is already at the forefront, in which they have already invested in developing in the i3 and the i8. All this is to say that although they are my assumptions, they are based of real world data and the current direction of automotive technology that exists today.

Oh yes, the good old FP green turbos. Great street turbos! I would have been more of a FP Red/Black guy though. The low end torque provided by the smaller stock and green turbos is great for the street for sure. The high revving nature and power provided by the larger compressor/turbines turbos, however, ohhh so fun. And you certainly need that power up top when dealing with Zo6s and such at higher speeds.

I can understand everybody's "concern" regarding paying $75K+ for a 4 cylinder, but as you said, that is just a mindset. The Evos have already proven that 4 cylinder motors can be ABSOLUTE BEASTS. That is a fact. I paid 36K for just that in my Evo: the motor and drivetrain (Ok maybe the Momo steering wheel and the Recaro seats as well, haha!) I didn't buy the Evo for the high quality interior and awesome plastic/fake carbon fiber everywhere. You pay for an Awesome (cast iron block) 4 cylinder motor and drivetrain, not class and luxury, that is for sure! In BMW M3s, you don't just pay for a quality motor/drivetrain, you pay for all the tech and luxuries that complement the motor/drivetrain.

I'm with you ASAP, I wouldn't buy the 528i either.

Just one question for you though, what do you mean when you say this?

"there will need to be a performance pairing that currently doesn't exist to get rid of that lag and improve responsiveness."

[Diver]

Total BS. Our leaders tell us it is climate change, I think it is weather.

[PDX1er]

i8 is a tech demo.

Times have changed. Look at the Porsche 918. Look at Formula 1. Please read writing on wall.

[Diver]

Kind of hard to imagine. I think we need to quit worrying about C02 and enjoy life.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by Diver

Total BS. Our leaders tell us it is climate change, I think it is weather.

Q F T ! ! !