04-25-2024, 10:19 AM | #23 | |
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Model 3 performance is not in the same class as a Toyota Corolla and Honda accord. It’s in the same class as an M3 comp x and Audi RS5 and C63 AMG. |
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04-25-2024, 10:31 AM | #24 |
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Thanks for pointing out what should be completely obvious
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04-25-2024, 10:55 AM | #25 |
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No it's not. This is an extremely ridiculous statement. Complete misunderstanding of what a 'class' of vehicle means.
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04-25-2024, 10:58 AM | #26 |
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You mean extremely absurd. I mean leaving everything aside - like luxury, material quality, build quality, customizability, brand image, options, comfort; price alone puts them in completely different categories.
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04-25-2024, 11:15 AM | #27 |
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My pleasure. Here's some stats via car and driver with as tested prices:
Toyota Corolla Hybrid - 9s to 60, 16.9s 1/4, 100mph in 38.7s, 134hp, 3218lbs, $29k Honda Accord Hybrid - 6.5s to 60, 15.2s 1/4, 100mph in 19.2s, 204hp, 3525lbs, $39k i4M50 - 3.3s to 60, 11.7s 1/4, 100mph in 8.0s, 536hp, 5063lbs, $77k Model 3 perf - 2.9s to 60, 11.5s 1/4 (est), 7.9s to 100mph (est), 510hp, 4054lbs, $47k w/tax credit; $54k without tax credit |
04-25-2024, 11:18 AM | #28 | |
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I was responding to someone saying the Tesla model 3 perf was in the same class as a corolla or accord. I think what's blowing everyone's little "class" strata is the price point here. The i4M50 and Tesla model 3 performance are direct competitors, whether you like it or not. And from a performance standpoint, you could take both of those cars and compare them to their ICE equivalents/counterparts, which is done all the time. |
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04-25-2024, 11:32 AM | #29 |
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The new model 3P is a great bang for the buck, maybe.
But, the i4 M60 is being released with 590hp, which is a 50hp+ bump. The existing runs at 3.3 seconds. I doubt there will be much performance difference between the two. I would choose the new i4, because it has a dashboard and HUD which I prefer. I don’t like taking my eyes off the road while driving. Last Friday, a local motorcyclist was killed when a Tesla driver, using auto pilot without his eyes on the road, hit the motorcycle, knocked the driver off, and proceeded to drive over his body. Quality Tesla software. I wouldn’t trust their OTA suspension adjustments. |
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04-25-2024, 11:38 AM | #30 | |
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It’s like a WRX vs an M3. Both are fast, but different.
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04-25-2024, 11:41 AM | #31 |
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$30k less than the i4M50 with tax credit just gets a maybe? The biggest difference is the weight - 1000 lbs lighter.
I don’t blame Tesla for idiots who don’t drive the car themselves. That’s on them, not Tesla. Autopilot is adaptive cruise control, it’s not full self drive. |
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04-25-2024, 12:09 PM | #32 | |
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I do blame Tesla for allowing people to keep their eyes off the road while using either Autopilot or FSD. That’s a flaw in their software. It should not be so easily defeated. |
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04-25-2024, 12:22 PM | #33 | |
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The biggest improvements in the interior for the Tesla are the new seats and the screen for the kiddos in the back seat. |
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04-25-2024, 12:52 PM | #34 | |
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The driver is fully responsible to drive the car and they’re supposed to have their hands on the wheel or the auto pilot will be disengaged.
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04-25-2024, 12:55 PM | #35 | |
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Anyway, how exactly is the i4M50 superior to the new model 3 performance? It's heavier - weighs 1,000 lbs more, it's $25-30k more expensive, it has the average vernasca leather or fake Sensatec vinyl - I'd put either on par with the Tesla, an inferior charging network, and the Tesla has better traction control, better motors, better efficiency, full self drive availability... Don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to be objective here. You could argue the HUD and UI is better in the BMW. I'd give you the HUD, but the UI in the Tesla is SO easy to use. Not to mention the security and safety of all the cameras. |
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04-25-2024, 01:11 PM | #36 | |
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Mercedes S500 0-60: 4.5s They're in the same class, right?(!) Model 3 and i4 ARE NOT in the same class, because cross-shopping them doesn't make sense. Performance measures by themselves don't make a 'class' of cars. When you say 'Luxury sport sedan', that's not a car which has like 3 options with giant panel gaps and $29K starting price at base.
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04-25-2024, 01:14 PM | #37 |
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04-25-2024, 01:25 PM | #38 |
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But, the autopilot did not disengage. The driver stated he was looking at his phone for a while. The car hit the motorcycle, still did not disengage. Then proceeded to run over the person afterwards.
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04-25-2024, 01:31 PM | #39 |
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Well, there are always anomalies.
You should definitely get the Tesla, if you're not sophisticated enough to appreciate the differences. Kinda like me, buying clothing. I can get Polo over Armani, because I'm not sophisticated enough to appreciate the difference when it comes to clothing. The list of differences you wrote above is so off, that it's laughable. It's not just seats and HUD. 'Premium' class of vehicles are more customizable, and they've always been that way. Less options and less customizability are characteristic of low-tier brands like Nissan, Toyota, Tesla, Hyundai, Honda. i4 has 9 different seat options, M3P has 2 i4 has 4 wheels options, M3P has 1. i4 has 9 colors options, M3P has 4. i4 has HUD, ventilated seat option, air suspension, M3P doesn't. i4 is $75K Tesla is $50K. Tesla Model 3 is a lower class model. It's cheaper, less customizable, using low-tier materials and the build quality is some of the worst in the entire car market. Definitely worst than Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. Not just Model 3, but Tesla overall is a lower class brand. That's why they can't sell much of Model S and Model X cars anymore, now that Mercedes, BMW, Audi are involved. Because low-tier brands can't sell expensive cars.(Model X is selling less than EQE and iX, and I'm pretty sure i5 will be selling more than Model S when numbers come out.) Thias is not very surprising considering Tesla fans were comparing Model S to i7 and EQS back in the day. LOL.
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04-25-2024, 01:32 PM | #40 | |
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Seriously though it really depends what you prioritize. Tesla wins in performance and charging and some other metrics. The i4m50 is OK but doesn’t really motivate me to buy one. Like I said the M3 (BMW) is much better than the i4. Also, logically you’re using words like “anymore” and other extremes. Tesla is still selling nearly 1.5m cars per year so … I don’t get your points. You seem to buy into the bespoke model as superior, which is fine. Buy what you want. But the model 3 perf is definitely in the same class as the i4. And you’re showing your ignorance of Tesla options. S/X have ventilated seats and air suspension - S is about the price of the i4m50 with options - and the model 3 now has ventilated seats. I’d absolutely take a model S over the i4M50 come to think of it. The best ways to tell if two cars are in the same class - meet all or most of the following criteria 1) amount of doors 2) power and performance 3) the price point 4) if C&D puts them in the same class, 5) if they both have the same drivetrain, and 6) if a car company released a car to compete. |
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04-25-2024, 01:53 PM | #41 | |
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Try stepping outside of yourself
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04-25-2024, 02:10 PM | #42 | |
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3.5 years ago, I cross shopped the Model 3 and Polestar 2, and the 2 won because it’s a more premium product. The i4 would’ve been a contender had it been out. Today, the model 3 is cheap (feeling and now price). Just because they sold them for $60k+ when it was released doesn’t make it a premium product. It was just exclusive.
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04-25-2024, 02:38 PM | #43 |
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I feel like this discussion underscores just how far Tesla has been able to go in their attempt to disrupt the industry - that we can even argue about the model 3 being a direct competitor with a 4 Series - especially one with an M badge (not that it means what it once did) - is pretty amazing. The Model 3 has been something of a category buster, and how often do we see that happen with legacy brands? I definitely have friends who went Tesla for their daily commuter after being long-time German brand buyers.
Personally, I never considered any Tesla because the interiors, build quality, road noise, and suspensions were a no-go after so many years as a BMW loyalist. Yep, I like my HUD, well-designed seats, and any flavor of M suspension, etc. That said, I think I am going to take a hard look at the new Model 3 performance as a short term lease. I've been going back and forth between the I4 M50 and the I5 M60 for the last couple of months, while also waiting to test drive the upcoming 550e and the E53 AMG PHEV that launches in July. When I look at the price of the new Model 3 Performance and its recent enhancements, I feel like I'd be a fool not to at least test drive it. Honestly, with what I would save over an I5 M60, I could buy a GR86 or Miata for weekend use, which is feeling more and more like an actual option as I look at the ballooning weight on PHEV's and BEV's. I'm really curious to feel what they've done with the new adaptive suspension and seats. I also like the idea of saving nearly a thousand pounds of weight. I think it is pretty likely that I'll stick with BMW or Mercedes, but I'm gonna at least give the new Model 3 a look -- even if it isn't a true luxury car. That's the thing about disruptive products -- they can be hard to classify using the same rules as we use for legacy products. |
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04-25-2024, 03:09 PM | #44 |
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Overpriced for the general broader market (and BMW enthusiasts), but they are priced to their nitch market. BMW doesn’t want to discount them at all from current levels, unless they can drop production costs - which are relatively high
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