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      06-11-2019, 07:29 AM   #111
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If collusion is all you care about, then the findings of the Muller Commission’s report are very disappointing. But if you care about honesty, integrity, defending our country and all of its citizens, and planning for its future success, then its findings are of a real concern. Unlike Trump’s rants, the establishment of that investigation was completely valid, of a believed attack on our country’s election process by Russia and whether or not any American’s were complicit in that attack. Especially since we now know the extent of the people who met with representatives of a hostile foreign power and lied about it. While there may not have been criminal collusion there certainly was the intended urging and cooperation of a foreign government who has historically been an enemy of our country to actively work to interfere in our presidential election on behalf of one candidate. By all of our traditionally accepted standards of law and order, that was wrong. It is also appalling to me to read how Trump continuously abused his presidential powers and attempted to corrupt his aides, (lawyers, AG, and senior staff), to do his bidding throughout the Muller investigation. Thankfully, many of them successfully resisted and refused to comply with those unjust, if not illegal orders by Trump. I do think that Special Counsel Mueller was an impartial leader of this investigation and still respect him and his efforts, even though his choice of words, (double negative), in the report’s conclusion, then repeated by him in his brief press conference, could have been stated more clearly.
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      06-11-2019, 07:30 AM   #112
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I donít need the Mueller report to justify why I and many others truly dislike Donald Trump and this administration. Trump has proven his unworthiness for this office for his never-ending barrage of lies, insults, cheating and obscenities. He has been dishonest, amoral, unethical, greedy and egotistical. He profits personally from the presidency. He takes more time off than any other president and his social media habits are repulsive. He is petty and vain, a whining bully who name calls, treats women horribly and lies constantly about everything. There is basically not one single good or admirable quality that one could point to in Trump. He is truly a deplorable human being...!
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      06-11-2019, 07:55 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
So let me get this straight, you saw this thread, decided to read its contents, and concluded that the best you can do to add something meaningful to the discussion was to criticize a word choice as opposed to adding something worthwhile to the topic being discussed?

If that's the case you get a high five for being so "special"

Thanks, mom always told me I was special.

Like I said, words matter. Don't be mad at me because you stepped on your dick trying to act like a know-it-all. You don't like it? Tough. Keep on scrolling.
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      06-11-2019, 07:57 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
For conspiracy with the Russians, yes you are right, they concluded insufficient evidence -- or as Trump calls it, total exoneration. For the investigation into obstruction that is not the conclusion.
A point that appears to be, repeatedly, lost on some here. Perhaps intentionally.

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      06-11-2019, 08:00 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
My understanding is that for an obstruction charge to be plausible, a person had to have tried to obstruct an action with corrupt intent. The corrupt intent being to conceal an underlying crime of which they are also guilty. In this case there was no evidence of conspiracy, the underlying crime also investigated and therefore no corrupt intent and therefore no obstruction charge. If there had been actual conspiracy, the same actions WOULD have led to an obstruction charge since the intent of the concealment was corrupt in nature in order to obstruct the discovery of an actual crime.
So an effort to stymie/stall/interfere with the investigation cannot be the corrupt intent in and of itself, in your estimation?

I'm not sure the legal community, as a whole, agrees with that interpretation - but they might. I'm not a lawyer.
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      06-11-2019, 08:23 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
My understanding is that for an obstruction charge to be plausible, a person had to have tried to obstruct an action with corrupt intent. The corrupt intent being to conceal an underlying crime of which they are also guilty. In this case there was no evidence of conspiracy, the underlying crime also investigated and therefore no corrupt intent and therefore no obstruction charge. If there had been actual conspiracy, the same actions WOULD have led to an obstruction charge since the intent of the concealment was corrupt in nature in order to obstruct the discovery of an actual crime.
So an effort to stymie/stall/interfere with the investigation cannot be the corrupt intent in and of itself, in your estimation?

I'm not sure the legal community, as a whole, agrees with that interpretation - but they might. I'm not a lawyer.
It might be, but not necessarily. Because you can't read minds, it's hard to ascertain whether corrupt intent was there. You need to be able to show/prove the corrupt intent, which is difficult depending on the specific action.

Lying to investigators and/or intentionally concealing evidence is very clearly indicative of corrupt intent. Firing Comey, which is within a presidents purview, MIGHT have been done with corrupt intent, but not necessarily, and without knowing what was in Trump's head there's too much ambiguity to bring charges.

In the 2000s Arthur Anderson was charged and found guilty of obstruction for destroying documents related to an investigation. It was later overturned when the courts were made aware that the document destruction was consistent with a broader document destruction policy that predated the investigation. Once the corrupt intent was removed the charge could not be upheld.
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      06-11-2019, 08:32 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Thanks, mom always told me I was special.

Like I said, words matter. Don't be mad at me because you stepped on your dick trying to act like a know-it-all. You don't like it? Tough. Keep on scrolling.
My mama says I'm special. Hmmmm... where else did I hear that???
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      06-11-2019, 08:34 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
It might be, but not necessarily. Because you can't read minds, it's hard to ascertain whether corrupt intent was there. You need to be able to show/prove the corrupt intent, which is difficult depending on the specific action.

Lying to investigators and/or intentionally concealing evidence is very clearly indicative of corrupt intent. Firing Comey, which is within a presidents purview, MIGHT have been done with corrupt intent, but not necessarily, and without knowing what was in Trump's head there's too much ambiguity to bring charges.

I'm the 2000s Arthur Anderson was charged and found guilty of obstruction for destroying documents related to an investigation. It was later overturned when the courts were made aware that the document destruction was consistent with a broader document destruction policy that predated the investigation. Once the corrupt intent was removed the charge could not be upheld.

Agreed. It all depends on the evidence, at the end.

Comey's firing might be too ambiguous, or it might not, depending on what evidence was gathered regarding the action.

I don't expect there will be any "business as usual" type defense for anything that Trump might have done, however, in comparison with the AA example.
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      06-11-2019, 08:39 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by irishbimmer View Post
All I am saying is read the book.
ive seen enough documentaries and read enough about it to form an educated opinion without having to read a book by a guy that has spent much of his time bashing trump since 2016.

Was Trump going after the NFL the final nail in the coffin? Sure, you could argue that. But the league was on life support when he came into it in 1984. They had no money, only 4 of the original 12 owners were still involved, and teams were already closing up shop just 2 years after starting.
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      06-11-2019, 08:41 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
It might be, but not necessarily. Because you can't read minds, it's hard to ascertain whether corrupt intent was there. You need to be able to show/prove the corrupt intent, which is difficult depending on the specific action.

Lying to investigators and/or intentionally concealing evidence is very clearly indicative of corrupt intent. Firing Comey, which is within a presidents purview, MIGHT have been done with corrupt intent, but not necessarily, and without knowing what was in Trump's head there's too much ambiguity to bring charges.

I'm the 2000s Arthur Anderson was charged and found guilty of obstruction for destroying documents related to an investigation. It was later overturned when the courts were made aware that the document destruction was consistent with a broader document destruction policy that predated the investigation. Once the corrupt intent was removed the charge could not be upheld.

Agreed. It all depends on the evidence, at the end.

I don't expect there will be any "business as usual" type defense for anything that Trump might have done, however, in comparison with the AA example.
I call em like I see em. Trump is not a virtuous man by any stretch. I live in the greater NYC area and know of many people who have interacted with him or his companies and got screwed over. He doesn't just straddle the border between right and wrong, he very obviously crosses into the wrong side when convenient but in careful ways to avoid prosecution or lawsuits. Having said that, I truly believe that if there was sufficient evidence muller would have brought charges. That doesn't mean trump didn't do anything, it's just not enough for conviction.

There was a story for years that in his preconstruction deals, he would let you pick the finishing touches in your unit and then intentionally under provide what you asked for and give you lower level finishes. But he would do so in a very calculated way so as to underprovide by an amount that would make him $ but not enough to be worth suing over.
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      06-11-2019, 08:54 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
I call em like I see em. Trump is not a virtuous man by any stretch. I live in the greater NYC area and know of many people who have interacted with him or his companies and got screwed over. He doesn't just straddle the border between right and wrong, he very obviously crosses into the wrong side when convenient but in careful ways to avoid prosecution or lawsuits. Having said that, I truly believe that if there was sufficient evidence muller would have brought charges. That doesn't mean trump didn't do anything, it's just not enough for conviction.

There was a story for years that in his preconstruction deals, he would let you pick the finishing touches in your unit and then intentionally under provide what you asked for and give you lower level finishes. But he would do so in a very calculated way so as to underprovide by an amount that would make him $ but not enough to be worth suing over.
You "truly believe" that even though Mueller himself said that he felt the OLC letter specifically and explicitly prohibited him from doing exactly that, both in the report and in his presser?
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      06-11-2019, 08:58 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
I call em like I see em. Trump is not a virtuous man by any stretch. I live in the greater NYC area and know of many people who have interacted with him or his companies and got screwed over. He doesn't just straddle the border between right and wrong, he very obviously crosses into the wrong side when convenient but in careful ways to avoid prosecution or lawsuits. Having said that, I truly believe that if there was sufficient evidence muller would have brought charges. That doesn't mean trump didn't do anything, it's just not enough for conviction.

There was a story for years that in his preconstruction deals, he would let you pick the finishing touches in your unit and then intentionally under provide what you asked for and give you lower level finishes. But he would do so in a very calculated way so as to underprovide by an amount that would make him $ but not enough to be worth suing over.
You "truly believe" that even though Mueller himself said that he felt the OLC letter specifically and explicitly prohibited him from doing exactly that, both in the report and in his presser?
He could have recommended bringing charges after Trump left office. Or he could have been more specific that the actions warrant impeachment.
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      06-11-2019, 09:01 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genieman View Post
He could have recommended bringing charges after Trump left office. Or he could have been more specific that the actions warrant impeachment.
We'll agree to disagree. He very obviously told Congress it was their job to impeach him before the DoJ should/could have anything to say on the subject, IMO.

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      06-11-2019, 10:32 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
I donít need the Mueller report to justify why I and many others truly dislike Donald Trump and this administration. Trump has proven his unworthiness for this office for his never-ending barrage of lies, insults, cheating and obscenities. He has been dishonest, amoral, unethical, greedy and egotistical. He profits personally from the presidency. He takes more time off than any other president and his social media habits are repulsive. He is petty and vain, a whining bully who name calls, treats women horribly and lies constantly about everything. There is basically not one single good or admirable quality that one could point to in Trump. He is truly a deplorable human being...!
Someone has their panties in a bunch this morning.
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      06-11-2019, 01:42 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Eriphill View Post
Someone has their panties in a bunch this morning.
Eriphill :

I keep trying to ignore Donald Trump's bizarre behavior and tweets, but I guess it just is cumulative and builds up inside of me until I have to core-dump my feelings about him and his actions, hence this morning's multiple posts....
Thank you for your understanding.

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      06-11-2019, 04:36 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Eriphill :

I keep trying to ignore Donald Trump's bizarre behavior and tweets, but I guess it just is cumulative and builds up inside of me until I have to core-dump my feelings about him and his actions, hence this morning's multiple posts....
Thank you for your understanding.

AVB-AMG
The symptoms you are describing here clinically speaking is likely stage 2 TDS.

Itís an epidemic folks!
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      06-11-2019, 08:15 PM   #127
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Unlike Trump's rants, the establishment of that investigation was completely valid, of a believed attack on our country's election process by Russia and whether or not any American's were complicit in that attack.
Interesting that you seem to have already made you mind up about the legitimacy of the Obama administration's surveillance on Americans, including the opposition party's campaign for the Presidency. Especially in the face of mounting evidence of illegitimacy.

I'll stick my neck out and predict the Obama administration spying on Americans predates the Trump campaign, and likely involves actions against opponents of the Iran deal. This entire Trump thing is likely going to be exposed as a coverup operation seeking to obstruct justice being served on this lawless surveillance.

Hey I'm just some average guy with no inside knowledge. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. Then again perhaps your ilk will be proven wrong. Time will tell.
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      06-11-2019, 08:15 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Unlike Trump's rants, the establishment of that investigation was completely valid, of a believed attack on our country's election process by Russia and whether or not any American's were complicit in that attack.
Interesting that you seem to have already made you mind up about the legitimacy of the Obama administration's surveillance on Americans, including the opposition party's campaign for the Presidency. Especially in the face of mounting evidence of illegitimacy.

I'll stick my neck out and predict the Obama administration spying on Americans predates the Trump campaign, and likely involves actions against opponents of the Iran deal. This entire Trump thing is likely going to be exposed as a coverup operation seeking to obstruct justice being served on this lawless surveillance.

Hey I'm just some average guy with no inside knowledge. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. Then again perhaps your ilk will be proven wrong. Time will tell.
Please produce some evidence......
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      06-11-2019, 08:18 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Unlike Trump's rants, the establishment of that investigation was completely valid, of a believed attack on our country's election process by Russia and whether or not any American's were complicit in that attack.
Interesting that you seem to have already made you mind up about the legitimacy of the Obama administration's surveillance on Americans, including the opposition party's campaign for the Presidency. Especially in the face of mounting evidence of illegitimacy.

I'll stick my neck out and predict the Obama administration spying on Americans predates the Trump campaign, and likely involves actions against opponents of the Iran deal. This entire Trump thing is likely going to be exposed as a coverup operation seeking to obstruct justice being served on this lawless surveillance.

Hey I'm just some average guy with no inside knowledge. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. Then again perhaps your ilk will be proven wrong. Time will tell.
Please produce some evidence......
I can't provide evidence of revelations that may/may not come to fruition. That's why I called it a prediction. 💡
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      06-11-2019, 10:22 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by DonaldPump View Post
The symptoms you are describing here clinically speaking is likely stage 2 TDS.

It’s an epidemic folks!
DonaldPump :

Actually, TDS is just a silly Republican acronym for more and more Americans realizing that they have been duped by a con man, a carnival barker and increasingly deranged narcissistic, pathological liar.
They are seeking someone, maybe anyone who they believe will be better than Trump, to vote for in 2020.

I am surprised in your feelings, since your signature would lead a rational observer to think that you would recognize when you were being fooled and would want to correct that mistake.....

Ephesians 6:12, KJV: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

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      06-11-2019, 10:37 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
DonaldPump :

Actually, TDS is just a silly Republican acronym for more and more Americans realizing that they have been duped by a con man, a carnival barker and increasingly deranged narcissistic, pathological liar.
They are seeking someone, maybe anyone who they believe will be better than Trump, to vote for in 2020.

AVB-AMG
Actually TDS was defined right after the election, not something developed over time.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...226-story.html
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      06-11-2019, 10:37 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwarzschild Radius View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Unlike Trump's rants, the establishment of that investigation was completely valid, of a believed attack on our country's election process by Russia and whether or not any American's were complicit in that attack.
Interesting that you seem to have already made you mind up about the legitimacy of the Obama administration's surveillance on Americans, including the opposition party's campaign for the Presidency. Especially in the face of mounting evidence of illegitimacy.

I'll stick my neck out and predict the Obama administration spying on Americans predates the Trump campaign, and likely involves actions against opponents of the Iran deal. This entire Trump thing is likely going to be exposed as a coverup operation seeking to obstruct justice being served on this lawless surveillance.

Hey I'm just some average guy with no inside knowledge. Maybe I'll be proven wrong. Then again perhaps your ilk will be proven wrong. Time will tell.
Please produce some evidence......
I can't provide evidence of revelations that may/may not come to fruition. That's why I called it a prediction. 💡
You said mounting evidence of Illegitimacy. The word evidence is in there.
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