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      07-27-2020, 02:30 PM   #199
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All I see is desperation...

Dull design with huge ugly grills, no Hofmeister kink, no more corona rings, no more design originality...
Let's get them excited by posting a video with our insipid, uninspiring Head of development.

Without passion there is no passion result...
This guy passion is to make sure he is retiring with a bigger pension plan.

Every step BMW takes lately is just damaging the brand more.

[COLOR="Red"]BMW bring enthusiasts or you will die![/COLOR]
Enthusiasts are a minority of BMW profits. The mainstream is where the real money is to be made.
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      07-27-2020, 02:30 PM   #200
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I have no idea, it's just an assumption. Hopefully the stripper models can be around 3600lb with RWD, but I doubt it. Hope springs eternal but 3800lb may be too much to track the way I track the E90 and the CS
I’d take some comfort in what he says in this video that the new car is more agile and precise on the track than the F8X. For that to be possible either the car is similar enough in weight or the chassis tuning is so much better that the weight increase has little practical impact as long as the brakes can keep up which I have no doubt they can.
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      07-27-2020, 03:04 PM   #201
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I disagree with that notion.

Just because I sit a lot in traffic does not mean I don't value my experience with the car off the traffic and on the backroads or track, where these cars are meant to be driven. When the M engineers tell you that AWD is still "pressure heavy" in their promotion videos, you know it's a heavy car.

I hope this car turns out to be good. I really do. It is just saddening to hear they are starting out with some clearly inferior hardware components when it comes to sporty driving, which leaves many of us doubtful of that outcome.
You can value the experience as much as you want but the fact remains that 95% of owners will never go anywhere near what the limits of the car are in order to feel any of any weight penalty. Driving through your favorite backroad doesn't exploit a weight disadvantage. I'm sure the engineers will do the best they can to make sure that balance stays somewhat proper but I can't accept someone telling me they feel any kind of weight disadvantage when you're driving in day to day traffic or when you try to open it up every once in awhile. Not sure why we keep discussing the track when the people that take these cars to the track are the exception, not the norm.
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      07-27-2020, 04:07 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast View Post
You can value the experience as much as you want but the fact remains that 95% of owners will never go anywhere near what the limits of the car are in order to feel any of any weight penalty. Driving through your favorite backroad doesn't exploit a weight disadvantage. I'm sure the engineers will do the best they can to make sure that balance stays somewhat proper but I can't accept someone telling me they feel any kind of weight disadvantage when you're driving in day to day traffic or when you try to open it up every once in awhile. Not sure why we keep discussing the track when the people that take these cars to the track are the exception, not the norm.
It’s all physics. More mass means less horsepower per unit weight which translates to more tire wear and worse economy. Ever wonder why Panamera Turbos come with all seasons? Because there isn’t a summer tire that can last remotely long even for normal use due to carrying around a 2-ton kg car.

The legendary M3s that are meant to be and will be driven hard by owners with all seasons? That sounds exciting.
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      07-27-2020, 04:18 PM   #203
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And I think we are making too much assumptions about driving skills of M drivers. Out of 100,000+ M3/4s sold worldwide, it is mostly the same people that lease/purchase about 2 cars in a life cycle. So assume 50,000 people for G20 countries, simple average is 2,500 per country (of course sales figure is exponential depending on countries) These are the same people who could have bought a large SUV but decided to go for a rowdy vehicle. I would say they are likely to be slightly above average drivers who more or less have confidence in handling high power than those trying to experience it for the first time.
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      07-27-2020, 05:12 PM   #204
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The dissonance originates mainly from his racing gloves.

It would make a world of difference when the senior engineer would take the pre-production version for a stroll around the track and talk us in as a "casual" not pre-meditated trip.

Yes, he could be a bit more enthousiastic about this marvellous car, but he's just another dull engineer and that is not a bad thing. Rather him leading the project than Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt.

Nevertheless, it's a BIG mistake of BMW marketing division to target this movie like they did.
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      07-27-2020, 06:19 PM   #205
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Bring back Biermann, y'all fucked up and diluted the shit out of the M-brand.
This sums it all up! - no need to read further.
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      07-27-2020, 07:09 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast View Post
You can value the experience as much as you want but the fact remains that 95% of owners will never go anywhere near what the limits of the car are in order to feel any of any weight penalty. Driving through your favorite backroad doesn't exploit a weight disadvantage. I'm sure the engineers will do the best they can to make sure that balance stays somewhat proper but I can't accept someone telling me they feel any kind of weight disadvantage when you're driving in day to day traffic or when you try to open it up every once in awhile. Not sure why we keep discussing the track when the people that take these cars to the track are the exception, not the norm.
I agree with you... I am one of the 95% that will never take the car to its full power or potential. One- I don't want to take an 80k car on a track (thats just me). Two- I don't have the the nerve I used to and if I did, I would have a dedicated car and will have modded to a point where I feel comfortable tracking it. I'm sure there are guys on this forum that have the pockets for it. Let's face it, no manufacturer can sustain building a car for one group of buyers. Konesigg makes a great track car if you got a million burning a hole in your pocket
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      07-28-2020, 10:18 AM   #207
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I would agree skipping over the awd and 8at and instead developing the dct to handle 530 hp would have been great.
The DCT is torque limited, not power limited. The current DCT with its 700N-m/516lb-ft limit could have easily coped with the S58 power and torque levels with margin to spare for CS and CSL variants. It's one of the reason I am upset with the avenue of AWD on the G8X, as it forces other compromises.

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If the awd version tips 3800 lbs, then I'll be damned... that really should make everyone at least consider the other options...

The rear end of the M3 just needed some wider 285s running on PS4s w a slightly more sorted out suspension and it would hve been great... then just pimp the body w CF parts for even further weight savings. At this weight, you are almost defeating the purpose of what this car is to be.
The RWD M340i is above 3,800lb while the M340i xDrive is very close to 4,000lb. Usually, the weight reduction initiatives barely offset the added weight of the added go-fast goddies in ///M cars, plus the 8AT is heavier than the DCT, so I don't expect the G8X to be a lightweight. That being said, maybe a base 6MT stripper can near 3,700lb. But that still quite heavy for a stripper, and as you say, it defeats the purpose of such a car. We can only hope BMW pushed weight reduction even further on this gen and surprise us.
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      07-28-2020, 10:31 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Wyndi335I View Post
I agree with you... I am one of the 95% that will never take the car to its full power or potential. One- I don't want to take an 80k car on a track (thats just me). Two- I don't have the the nerve I used to and if I did, I would have a dedicated car and will have modded to a point where I feel comfortable tracking it. I'm sure there are guys on this forum that have the pockets for it. Let's face it, no manufacturer can sustain building a car for one group of buyers. Konesigg makes a great track car if you got a million burning a hole in your pocket
Then why not buy an M340i ?
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      07-28-2020, 11:24 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Then why not buy an M340i ?
I'll do you one better. Why not just get a 330i?

Simple answer: Status symbol.

Complex answer: The people that can afford and drive these cars new are either mid to high level managers(or an up and coming business owner)(Don't think like a enthusiast, think like the average joe) and want to make a statement and show up to the office in a nice car. The only difference between an M340i and a 330i is that six cylinder engine basically. I have more disposable income to spend therefore I will purchase the highest model vehicle I can afford. People in the price bracket usually aren't *too* picky about how much gas costs or things like that. It might be on their mind but it's not something that'll be a deal breaker.

I had the pleasure of speaking to a realtor who purchased a BASE 320i xDrive. The ONLY option it had was Nav. Bought it simply to make a statement to potential clients. The Roundel means a lot. I can't tell you how many of those people I had the pleasure of speaking to. That's the majority market for BMW, Mercedes and Audi. The majority of owners that decide they want a premium luxury brand aren't looking for how fast it goes or how sporty it is.

All three German luxury brands share the same philosophy, and that's comfort. How they go about giving their clients that comfort is a completely different story.
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      07-28-2020, 11:31 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
It’s all physics. More mass means less horsepower per unit weight which translates to more tire wear and worse economy. Ever wonder why Panamera Turbos come with all seasons? Because there isn’t a summer tire that can last remotely long even for normal use due to carrying around a 2-ton kg car.

The legendary M3s that are meant to be and will be driven hard by owners with all seasons? That sounds exciting.
I understand the physics aspect but the point I was trying to make was that you'll never get anywhere near the limits of the car on your favorite backroad to get any enough weight transfer for it to remotely matter. Backroads are not able to exploit any of the disadvantages of the weight of the car.

I actually didn't know that about the Panamera. Thank you for sharing that with me.
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      07-28-2020, 01:03 PM   #211
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Then why not buy an M340i ?
Because I can by an M3. This is America and it doesn't have to make sense and I really am not being a smart ass when I say this. I just don't believe in trashing a product because it doesn't meet your needs or chastise a individual because they buy that product and not use it for said purpose. I believe a M3 is a car that can be tracked to some point but in most cases driven daily my most consumers. Its purely a material object that most consumers can't afford or have no need for.
It is actually funny to see how serious people on this forum are getting bent out of shape about this. If i am fortunate enough to get this car, I will enjoy to the most of my capabilities which will be minimal and probably laughable.
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      07-28-2020, 01:09 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast View Post
I'll do you one better. Why not just get a 330i?

Simple answer: Status symbol.

Complex answer: The people that can afford and drive these cars new are either mid to high level managers(or an up and coming business owner)(Don't think like a enthusiast, think like the average joe) and want to make a statement and show up to the office in a nice car. The only difference between an M340i and a 330i is that six cylinder engine basically. I have more disposable income to spend therefore I will purchase the highest model vehicle I can afford. People in the price bracket usually aren't *too* picky about how much gas costs or things like that. It might be on their mind but it's not something that'll be a deal breaker.

I had the pleasure of speaking to a realtor who purchased a BASE 320i xDrive. The ONLY option it had was Nav. Bought it simply to make a statement to potential clients. The Roundel means a lot. I can't tell you how many of those people I had the pleasure of speaking to. That's the majority market for BMW, Mercedes and Audi. The majority of owners that decide they want a premium luxury brand aren't looking for how fast it goes or how sporty it is.

All three German luxury brands share the same philosophy, and that's comfort. How they go about giving their clients that comfort is a completely different story.
This is an interesting discussion.

Always thought it's a balance between catering to the car enthusiasts vs "brand enthusiasts". Sway too far to the car enthusiasts and they don't make money. Sway too far to the brand enthusiasts and you lose your identity. I think we all know where BMW is at.

Granted it seems like the entire industry is heading to that direction, automation, ease to operate, etc.

Now I'm not going the say the BMW or M badge doesn't mean anything when it comes to the cachet of owning such car, but I would not buy a car with a BMW or M badge without the content of what it meant to have that badge.
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      07-28-2020, 01:45 PM   #213
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This is an interesting discussion.

Always thought it's a balance between catering to the car enthusiasts vs "brand enthusiasts". Sway too far to the car enthusiasts and they don't make money. Sway too far to the brand enthusiasts and you lose your identity. I think we all know where BMW is at.

Granted it seems like the entire industry is heading to that direction, automation, ease to operate, etc.

Now I'm not going the say the BMW or M badge doesn't mean anything when it comes to the cachet of owning such car, but I would not buy a car with a BMW or M badge without the content of what it meant to have that badge.
It would be great if the M Division was made it's own stand alone sub brand so we could see what those engineers can do without having BMW bean counters breathing over their shoulders. To me, that would really bring some class back to what M use to stand for. I think the M divisions identity over the past couple years as gotten murkier and murkier.
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      07-28-2020, 02:40 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Wyndi335I View Post
Because I can by an M3. This is America and it doesn't have to make sense and I really am not being a smart ass when I say this. I just don't believe in trashing a product because it doesn't meet your needs or chastise a individual because they buy that product and not use it for said purpose. I believe a M3 is a car that can be tracked to some point but in most cases driven daily my most consumers. Its purely a material object that most consumers can't afford or have no need for.
It is actually funny to see how serious people on this forum are getting bent out of shape about this. If i am fortunate enough to get this car, I will enjoy to the most of my capabilities which will be minimal and probably laughable.
I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.

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      07-28-2020, 02:58 PM   #215
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I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.
Absolutely, what sets the M2 and M3 apart from the non M 2s and 3s are their track capabilities. Without them these cars are obsolete.
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      07-28-2020, 03:49 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast View Post
I'll do you one better. Why not just get a 330i?

Simple answer: Status symbol.

Complex answer: The people that can afford and drive these cars new are either mid to high level managers(or an up and coming business owner)(Don't think like a enthusiast, think like the average joe) and want to make a statement and show up to the office in a nice car. The only difference between an M340i and a 330i is that six cylinder engine basically. I have more disposable income to spend therefore I will purchase the highest model vehicle I can afford. People in the price bracket usually aren't *too* picky about how much gas costs or things like that. It might be on their mind but it's not something that'll be a deal breaker.

I had the pleasure of speaking to a realtor who purchased a BASE 320i xDrive. The ONLY option it had was Nav. Bought it simply to make a statement to potential clients. The Roundel means a lot. I can't tell you how many of those people I had the pleasure of speaking to. That's the majority market for BMW, Mercedes and Audi. The majority of owners that decide they want a premium luxury brand aren't looking for how fast it goes or how sporty it is.

All three German luxury brands share the same philosophy, and that's comfort. How they go about giving their clients that comfort is a completely different story.
And that's where the dichotomy lies and why I previously stated that too many "average Joes" are getting these cars. These folks are buying the wrong car for the wrong reasons. This is shifting the buyer demographic and which in term can put the original M3(4) "design intent" at risk.

As I stated previously, the common denominator of each M3(4) generation has been a dual use car: a practical daily driver and track toy. With the F8X, Albert Biermann as the head of BMW ///M Engineering gave us the best one to date. Sadly, he left BMW because he did not like the direction ///M was taking. I am still hoping the G8X will fulfill my needs, but the preliminary info is not encouraging, with many of the key differentiators that made ///M superior to its competition gone.
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      07-28-2020, 03:51 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.
^ This exactly
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      07-28-2020, 03:52 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast View Post
It would be great if the M Division was made it's own stand alone sub brand again as it once was so we could see what those engineers can do without having BMW bean counters breathing over their shoulders. To me, that would really bring some class back to what M use to stand for. I think the M divisions identity over the past couple years as gotten murkier and murkier.
Fixed that for you
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      07-28-2020, 04:17 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
And that's where the dichotomy lies and why I previously stated that too many "average Joes" are getting these cars. These folks are buying the wrong car for the wrong reasons. This is shifting the buyer demographic and which in term can put the original M3(4) "design intent" at risk.

As I stated previously, the common denominator of each M3(4) generation has been a dual use car: a practical daily driver and track toy. With the F8X, Albert Biermann as the head of BMW ///M Engineering gave us the best one to date. Sadly, he left BMW because he did not like the direction ///M was taking. I am still hoping the G8X will fulfill my needs, but the preliminary info is not encouraging, with many of the key differentiators that made ///M superior to its competition gone.
I have the greatest respect for you but I think the loss of the DCT make you way to pessimistic about the G8X. I’m looking forward to see what you think once we can get our hands on these.
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      07-28-2020, 04:55 PM   #220
CanAutM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I have the greatest respect for you but I think the loss of the DCT make you way to pessimistic about the G8X. I’m looking forward to see what you think once we can get our hands on these.
I am just being cautious with my enthusiasm and keeping my options open. It depends how the whole package comes out, it's not only about the DCT. I am looking forward to the reveal and even more so on test driving one (this will be the first M3/4 I want to test drive before I purchase).
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Porsche 911 turbo 2021 992 GT Silver

Previous cars: M4cs 2019 F82 Limerock Grey / M4 2015 F82 Silverstone / M3 2008 E92 Silverstone / M3 2002 E46 Carbon Black

Last edited by CanAutM3; 07-28-2020 at 06:02 PM..
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