[pbar]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I am just being cautious with my enthusiasm and keeping my options open. It depends how the whole package comes out, it's not only about the DCT. I am looking forward to the reveal and to even more so on test driving one (this will be the first M3/4 I want to test drive before I purchase).

This ^^^.

And I would want to test drive it in a way that I know the dealership isn't going to like (or allow).

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The DCT is torque limited, not power limited. The current DCT with its 700N-m/516lb-ft limit could have easily coped with the S58 power and torque levels with margin to spare for CS and CSL variants. It's one of the reason I am upset with the avenue of AWD on the G8X, as it forces other compromises.

The RWD M340i is above 3,800lb while the M340i xDrive is very close to 4,000lb. Usually, the weight reduction initiatives barely offset the added weight of the added go-fast goddies in ///M cars, plus the 8AT is heavier than the DCT, so I don't expect the G8X to be a lightweight. That being said, maybe a base 6MT stripper can near 3,700lb. But that still quite heavy for a stripper, and as you say, it defeats the purpose of such a car. We can only hope BMW pushed weight reduction even further on this gen and surprise us.

The real question to ask ourselves here... is what does bmw think of the M3 as? In my mind, the real enthusiast would want the rwd option... but w the current setup of more powerful and auto options being reserved for the awd model... we will never really know as similar vehicles w both variants will not be offered.

Does bmw think they are losing that large of a market share by people coming out of the woodwork for an awd m3? If so... i gather they think this will be a daily for many driving in the snow. To me thats not really an enthusiast vehicle but a mixed daily use car... as intended for an M3... but we are getting to the point w weight and awd / auto, why not just get anything else in the segment? Don't see the pull towards the bmw as in the past. I think I am keeping my M2 comp for quite a while...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast

It would be great if the M Division was made it's own stand alone sub brand so we could see what those engineers can do without having BMW bean counters breathing over their shoulders. To me, that would really bring some class back to what M use to stand for. I think the M divisions identity over the past couple years as gotten murkier and murkier.

The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The real question to ask ourselves here... is what does bmw think of the M3 as? In my mind, the real enthusiast would want the rwd option... but w the current setup of more powerful and auto options being reserved for the awd model... we will never really know as similar vehicles w both variants will not be offered.

Does bmw think they are losing that large of a market share by people coming out of the woodwork for an awd m3? If so... i gather they think this will be a daily for many driving in the snow. To me thats not really an enthusiast vehicle but a mixed daily use car... as intended for an M3... but we are getting to the point w weight and awd / auto, why not just get anything else in the segment? Don't see the pull towards the bmw as in the past. I think I am keeping my M2 comp for quite a while...

Honestly, the M2 is essentially the new M3 and is having its E39 moment right now, while the M3's nameplate is iconic, I have a feeling the M2 will be favored more so over the M3 as time goes by and the cars grow in size and lose more feedback. Its clear that while it may not sell in as large numbers, its the halo car of the brand, and the best current definition of "the ultimate driving machine."

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.

That's why he said sub brand, similar to what Alpina is and what AMG use to be.

[JDUNITNOW]

Originally Posted by pbar

I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.

Originally Posted by pbar

I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.

Yes, I do get it and he is correct but the M3 comes with better seats and other options (US cars) and i will act a little hooligan at times and I am sure the M340i will be sufficient enough. I am coming from owning 5 seven series and the M3 seems to check all the boxes for me. I may still get M340i bit am holding off until I see the M3 without camouflage.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jstein55

That's why he said sub brand, similar to what Alpina is and what AMG use to be.

...and what ///M used to be.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.

M use to be a sub brand before 1993 when BMW brought it in house. Same goes for AMG.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast

M use to be a sub brand before 1993 when BMW brought it in house. Same goes for AMG.

I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?

Nobody is saying M should build a bespoke car. Having M become a sub brand again means you're giving the engineers and designers the freedom to go build the M car that they think would be the ideal M car instead of what the bean counters over at BMW think what the ideal M car is.

Two different philosophies.

[solstice]

AWD is not standard it’s an option (RWD is standard) to an option (competition model). To wring your hands in agony over BMW abandoning the M3 legacy by “going AWD” and reaching 4K lbs isn’t really fair or true is it?

AWD is an option for those who are prepared to trade some traditions for a lot of extra speed. For some like myself I’m looking forward to trying it out, not because I no longer appreciate low weight and MT transmission etc. but because I’m open and willing to try different things. If it doesn’t work out, well it’s just a trade away to the “purer” version or something else.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast

That's not the point that is being made. Having M become a sub brand again means you're giving the engineers and designers freedom to go build a car that they think would be the ideal M car instead of what the bean counters over at BMW think what the best car would be.

I dont entirely believe that gets you away from the corporate overlords... if u say 93, that means no bmw since the early e36s was that... thats far removed from reality at this point... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?

The M1

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by solstice

AWD is not standard it's an option (RWD is standard) to an option (competition model). To wring your hands in agony over BMW abandoning the M3 legacy by "going AWD" and reaching 4K lbs isn't really fair or true is it?

AWD is an option for those who are prepared to trade some traditions for a lot of extra speed. For some like myself I'm looking forward to trying it out, not because I no longer appreciate low weight and MT transmission etc. but because I'm open and willing to try different things. If it doesn't work out, well it's just a trade away to the "purer" version or something else.

For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I dont entirely believe that gets you away from the corporate overlords... if u say 93, that means no bmw since the early e36s was that... thats far removed from reality at this point... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The M1

oh uuu

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.

ok... not sure how some of you guys arrive at these conclusions... bmw m was formed as an expansion to help bmw's racing program... that program no longer exists... the baseline for these production models was always base BMWs... nothing would change that... unless you are saying bmw M builds 100 off cars for enthusiasts, then maybe you'd be right.

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by ASAP

For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?

Because getting down 500+ horsepower and 400+ ft lbs of torque to the ground is impossible. The F8x was criticized for just that. Lack of traction.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by ASAP

For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?

As I understand it they will offer the competition model as RWD and AWD with RWD being the standard competition drive type available at launch with AWD an optional drive type to the competition model that is launched later. Hence AWD is an option to an option...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast

Because getting down 500+ horsepower and 400+ ft lbs of torque to the ground is impossible. The F8x was criticized for just that. Lack of traction.

yes... the Giulia and the C63s suffer this same fate... as do plenty of other cars... or maybe bmw engineers suck at putting a proper diff in with decently sized rear tires?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.

I see this part differently and it is what is keeping my hopes up. ///M has never produced that many variants of their road cars into factory race cars: the M6GT3, M8GTE, M4GT4, M2csR and the upcoming M4GT3. Even more so, these cars use very similar engines as their road going counterparts. It is what gives me hope that there is still some Motorsport DNA in ///M, and not only the most powerful letter in Marketing.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by solstice

As I understand it they will offer the competition model as RWD and AWD with RWD being the standard competition drive type available at launch with AWD an optional drive type to the competition model that is launched later. Hence AWD is an option to an option...

this needs clarification and quick... because it doesnt read that way