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      08-05-2020, 01:30 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Thank you for the clarification, that helps identify some of those small differences between the cars such as the mesh indicating 6MT base
I meant to swing back to this earlier...

The mesh intake trim doesn't necessarily indicate Base vs Comp just as an ACC sensor isn't an indicator of MT vs AT. The minor differences with camo on the cars is *extremely* small and requires quality high-res photos to spot.

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Originally Posted by xlover View Post
[actually that is no longer accurate, competition is once again just an option package... at least as far the USA is concerned, not sure about ROW (i see you are rocking the canadian flag). They have fully reversed course as of 2021. Take a swing through the 2021 order guides. The new M3 and M4 will follow the 2021 logic.
US is the only market that doesn't have separate model type certification for Comp MY2021. Canada can go either US Type or UN Type (RoW).
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      08-05-2020, 01:39 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
I meant to swing back to this earlier...

The mesh intake trim doesn't necessarily indicate Base vs Comp just as an ACC sensor isn't an indicator of MT vs AT. The minor differences with camo on the cars is *extremely* small and requires quality high-res photos to spot.



US is the only market that doesn't have separate model type certification for Comp MY2021. Canada can go either US Type or UN Type (RoW).

I like you. Far less cryptic than Scott26 where he gives clues but you have no idea wtf he’s on about.
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      08-05-2020, 02:11 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
My understanding is there will not be a 8AT base offering, base will be 6MT only.
That is a theory that has been surfaced with no actual evidence other than during the preprod drives bmw stated to the journalists that the base will offer a manual and competition will be auto only.

I started another thread to discuss it, probably should have just posted here but there is a swirly only final stage mule running around with the base traits (eggcrate lower grill, and diffuser without the extra fin) but also has the driving assist pro sensor which means it has to be an automatic
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      08-05-2020, 02:19 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
That is a theory that has been surfaced with no actual evidence other than during the preprod drives bmw stated to the journalists that the base will offer a manual and competition will be auto only.

I started another thread to discuss it, probably should have just posted here but there is a swirly only final stage mule running around with the base traits (eggcrate lower grill, and diffuser without the extra fin) but also has the driving assist pro sensor which means it has to be an automatic

See the above post. ACC doesn’t mean auto.
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      08-05-2020, 02:20 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
I meant to swing back to this earlier...

just as an ACC sensor isn't an indicator of MT vs AT. The minor differences with camo on the cars is *extremely* small and requires quality high-res photos to spot.
.
the ACC sensor HAS to be an auto, right? unless it is just there for dummy purposes?

there arent any manuals in the bmw lineup (or any brand???) that integrate a manual with the driver assist pro or beyond basic ACC? I do not see how that would work considering the range speed the system can control for driver would have to intervene to shift
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      08-05-2020, 02:26 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
the ACC sensor HAS to be an auto, right? unless it is just there for dummy purposes?

there arent any manuals in the bmw lineup (or any brand???) that integrate a manual with the driver assist pro or just basic ACC? I do not see how that would work considering the range speed the system can control for driver would have to intervene to shift
While that is true I see a clear value in ACC on an MT. Having it in top gear only would cover 95% of the use. The other 5% being emergency braking and stop and go. Since CC is already available adding the ACC function in top gear should be easy. As you I’m skeptical though that it will be.
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      08-05-2020, 02:31 PM   #227
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All I see in those wheels is a labor-intensive car washing nightmare. I am considering a move to Porsche and though they aren't my favorite offering, I love the user-friendliness of the Carrera sport wheels.
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      08-05-2020, 02:35 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
While that is true I see a clear value in ACC on an MT. Having it in top gear only would cover 95% of the use. The other 5% being emergency braking and stop and go.
I see some value for sure, just bmw does not currently allow for it. As of today the 440 is the only vehicle in the lineup offered with a manual and ACC, choosing one negates the other.

Steady state highway cruising makes sense, but the system will also emergency brake the car, imagine being slowed down to 20mph then the system tries to reaccelerate up to highway speed in 6th, requiring driver intervention to get back into the proper gear. at least to date bmw hasn't felt their owners are capable of solving for that....

EDIT: my evidence is all US centric, if someone has examples from other markets happy to learn
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      08-05-2020, 02:41 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I see some value for sure, just bmw does not currently allow for it. As of today the 440 is the only vehicle in the lineup offered with a manual and ACC, choosing one negates the other.

Steady state highway cruising makes sense, but the system will also emergency brake the car, imagine being slowed down to 20mph then the system tries to reaccelerate up to highway speed in 6th, requiring driver intervention to get back into the proper gear. at least to date bmw hasn't felt their owners are capable of solving for that....

EDIT: my evidence is all US centric, if someone has examples from other markets happy to learn
Yeah that’s why I noted that on an MT it will cover around 95% of the ACC range of actual use
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      08-05-2020, 02:49 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
4 styles then different finish options in addition on some of them.
Am I guessing right that the top left is the 18"-19" combo while the three others are 19"-20" ?

CCW starting with the bottom left quad:

A: 19/20
B: 19/20
C: 19/19
D: see next

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I was wondering the same.

Though the bottom left wheels are the ones on two of the cars in the pictures from the OP, and they sure look small - like 18"/19" as I had mentioned earlier. Could be the shipping blocks giving that effect though.

I wonder if RWD vehicles will have wheel options that are distinct from those available on cars equipped AWD. If so, there could be more than one style of 18"/19" sized wheels.

Going back to our earlier discussion, I suspect that the wheels that look similar (but much better IMHO, due to the fact that they have some concavity and also because they remain open at the point they intersect the outside of the wheel) to the F8x 666M will be available from the factory for the Competition model only. Perhaps the other 19/20 combo in the top right will be the upgrade wheel on the base model, and also available on the Competition model as well.
Three questions for the audience.

Will an 18" wheel clear the front caliper?

Anyone actually seen a mule with anything smaller than 19"?

What size do they appear to be?

They need a design revision desperately to address a performance deficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
the ACC sensor HAS to be an auto, right? unless it is just there for dummy purposes?

there arent any manuals in the bmw lineup (or any brand???) that integrate a manual with the driver assist pro or beyond basic ACC? I do not see how that would work considering the range speed the system can control for driver would have to intervene to shift
VW, Audi, Honda, Ford, Jaguar, Kia

With or without an e-clutch, forward radar ACC can be combined with MT. The parameters of operation vary by manufacturers.
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      08-05-2020, 04:47 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
CCW starting with the bottom left quad:

A: 19/20
B: 19/20
C: 19/19
D: see next



Three questions for the audience.

Will an 18" wheel clear the front caliper?

Anyone actually seen a mule with anything smaller than 19"?

What size do they appear to be?

They need a design revision desperately to address a performance deficiency.



VW, Audi, Honda, Ford, Jaguar, Kia

With or without an e-clutch, forward radar ACC can be combined with MT. The parameters of operation vary by manufacturers.
That’s interesting. It has been previously rumoured that all M3/4 would have a diametrically staggered setup in either 18/19 or 19/20. So you’re saying the wheel options will be either 19/19 or 19/20 to address a performance deficiency (I have to assume in braking performance) ?
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      08-05-2020, 05:17 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post

VW, Audi, Honda, Ford, Jaguar, Kia

With or without an e-clutch, forward radar ACC can be combined with MT. The parameters of operation vary by manufacturers.
Fair enough, my point was more around systems beyond the just basic ACC, BMW bills the driver assist suite as one if its key initiatives. BMW does not even offer just basic ACC on any vehicle in the USA except the outgoing 4 series (even the X1 its bundled with stop and go). Every new generation only offers that feature with the driver assist plus or pro packages... not sure if this is just a USA thing? Like most just forming my own uninformed opinions waiting for release date!
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      08-05-2020, 06:08 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
That’s interesting. It has been previously rumoured that all M3/4 would have a diametrically staggered setup in either 18/19 or 19/20. So you’re saying the wheel options will be either 19/19 or 19/20 to address a performance deficiency (I have to assume in braking performance) ?
Yes it has to be to accommodate bigger rotors up front for increased momentum. Then comes the question, is it mainly because of less help from the new rear brakes, significantly more weight or speed...
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      08-05-2020, 07:49 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
That's interesting. It has been previously rumoured that all M3/4 would have a diametrically staggered setup in either 18/19 or 19/20. So you're saying the wheel options will be either 19/19 or 19/20 to address a performance deficiency (I have to assume in braking performance) ?
Too much wheel slip (not to be confused with tire slip). Needs rouletted bead seats.

I honestly have not seen a single G8x with 18" front wheels nor do I believe the info was provided in bad faith.
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      08-05-2020, 08:22 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I think expectation should be access to the base model will be primarily determined by the market demand for a manual transmission model and probably secondarily driven by overall volume and the need for diversity within the model line (over simplified example, if bmw only plans to sell 10 M3s in your market they probably only need to offer the more expensive comp package to find the 10 buyers, but if they want to sell 100 it is more likely that a buyer might not convert without offering more variation)

The 4 variants that are expected to exist (based on spy shots and actual bmw confirmation)
Base - 6MT (confirmed by BMW)
Base - auto (not mentioned explicitly but test mules matching the configuration are out and about)
Comp package - auto (confirmed by BMW)
Comp package - MxDrive/auto (kinda sorta confirmed by articles written in the pre-prod drives that xdrive will be comp only)

I expect (and my hunch is BMW agrees) that the lions share of sales will come from the comp-auto and comp-xdrive
Australia actually has the highest penetration of M models in the world (number of M cars sold as a percentage of total BMWs sold).

But very few manuals sold, and they usually only bring in highest spec and make a lot of options (in other markets) standard equipment.
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      08-05-2020, 10:38 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
That is a theory that has been surfaced with no actual evidence other than during the preprod drives bmw stated to the journalists that the base will offer a manual and competition will be auto only.

I started another thread to discuss it, probably should have just posted here but there is a swirly only final stage mule running around with the base traits (eggcrate lower grill, and diffuser without the extra fin) but also has the driving assist pro sensor which means it has to be an automatic
This press release seems pretty clear cut to me that that base will be 480hp 6MT while Competition will be 510 hp 8AT: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1735162
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      08-05-2020, 11:44 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
This press release seems pretty clear cut to me that that base will be 480hp 6MT while Competition will be 510 hp 8AT: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1735162
I get your line of thinking but the exact wording doesn't preclude an auto version with 480hp. It just says the manual will be at 480 hp, and the competition will be 510 and only come in auto. I read the wording as bmw informing there will be no manual competition version not that there will be no auto base version.

The comp package is $7k usd on an x3m I expect it will be similar on the M3. Considering that auto models are by far the volume seller I can't see bmw forcing the full 7k on buyers who want auto, that is likely a 10% price premium for the consumer preferred variant. It just wouldn't make business sense to me. Now if you told me that all autos were 510hp and comp wasn't a price premium option, merely a designation of manual or auto then I could see it.
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      08-06-2020, 12:55 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
Australia actually has the highest penetration of M models in the world (number of M cars sold as a percentage of total BMWs sold).

But very few manuals sold, and they usually only bring in highest spec and make a lot of options (in other markets) standard equipment.
Curiously we are the same here but for Audi RS. Sadly we have plenty of people buying UKL platform BMWs here and are quite low as a percentage of M car sales
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      08-06-2020, 07:04 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I get your line of thinking but the exact wording doesn't preclude an auto version with 480hp. It just says the manual will be at 480 hp, and the competition will be 510 and only come in auto. I read the wording as bmw informing there will be no manual competition version not that there will be no auto base version.

The comp package is $7k usd on an x3m I expect it will be similar on the M3. Considering that auto models are by far the volume seller I can't see bmw forcing the full 7k on buyers who want auto, that is likely a 10% price premium for the consumer preferred variant. It just wouldn't make business sense to me. Now if you told me that all autos were 510hp and comp wasn't a price premium option, merely a designation of manual or auto then I could see it.
I find it pretty clear cut in the wording. I guess we’ll have to agree to dissagree until we know more. The entire press release for reference: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...-the-racetrack
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      08-06-2020, 08:44 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
4 styles then different finish options in addition on some of them.
Top left are reminiscent of the wheels on my CS.
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      08-06-2020, 08:47 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colinv6 View Post
I like you. Far less cryptic than Scott26 where he gives clues but you have no idea wtf he’s on about.
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      08-06-2020, 11:07 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
The comp package is $7k usd on an x3m I expect it will be similar on the M3. Considering that auto models are by far the volume seller I can't see bmw forcing the full 7k on buyers who want auto, that is likely a 10% price premium for the consumer preferred variant.
One other thing to consider is the sell-through rate on the Competition model. In the recent past it was, to my recollection, mentioned to be over 80% (and no I don't have a citation for that, sorry) during the period it was made available. If that's true, then not offering the base model with the automatic transmission would make sense. The demand for such a combination would likely be very small, with most people continuing to prefer the Competition model as before, while those who do prefer the base model in most cases doing so to get the manual transmission.
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