[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

One other thing to consider is the sell-through rate on the Competition model. In the recent past it was, to my recollection, mentioned to be over 80% (and no I don't have a citation for that, sorry) during the period it was made available. If that's true, then not offering the base model with the automatic transmission would make sense. The demand for such a combination would likely be very small, with most people continuing to prefer the Competition model as before, while those who do prefer the base model in most cases doing so to get the manual transmission.

It was an interview with a BMW official ~2017 (before the LCI 2 for the F80) and they talked about how in "some markets the take rate of the competition model is 75-80%." I was blessed with a good memory.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

One other thing to consider is the sell-through rate on the Competition model. In the recent past it was, to my recollection, mentioned to be over 80% (and no I don't have a citation for that, sorry) during the period it was made available. If that's true, then not offering the base model with the automatic transmission would make sense. The demand for such a combination would likely be very small, with most people continuing to prefer the Competition model as before, while those who do prefer the base model in most cases doing so to get the manual transmission.

Agree, that would be the significant driver in a decision to push all auto buyers to comp only. comp models seem to be the preferred setup across most of the M lineup

Thinking out loud through the product positioning/marketing side of things... BMW does seem to be making a relatively big deal they retained the manual in the M3/M4, and it kinda is considering the overall competitive offerings. Differentiating the auto and manual offering in more ways than just the physical equipment for changing gears on the interior would would allow manual buyers more obvious distinction on the road and provide BMW marketing a stronger credible position to zero in on manual buyers (and roadside droolers) with that distinct model. It provides near explict confirmation the manual is not an afterthought "Hey we built an entire model variant around it"

If BMW would kindly share the customer personas they built the business model for the M3/M4 line on it would resolve alot of the open questions being debated.... (other than actually revealing the cars in a month and a half)

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by xlover

If BMW would kindly share the customer personas they built the business model for the M3/M4 line on it would resolve alot of the open questions being debated.... (other than actually revealing the cars in a month and a half)

This is just purely conjecture, but based mostly from 20+ years of BMW ownership and forum experience/meeting other members, etc.

Base M3/6MT - this is for enthusiasts who want the basic car, possibly who are moving up from other non-premium brands like Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Kia, etc. These are the people who are stretching their budget most likely to get into an M3 for the brand/name recognition and performance. These are the same folks who don't check any options boxes or would have taken the cloth interior with no moonroof back in the day. Nothing wrong with that but think no frills and probably seat time at a HPDE with their car. Entry level buyer and new to the brand type.

Competition Models - this probably for the more affluent buyer who probably doesn't buy the car to track it but just wants a nice sporty car to haul their kids around and go fast. Probably a more mature, middle age buyer, stable job, family, etc. This buyer wants the best of both worlds, all the creature comforts as well as the panache of performance on top and obviously brand name recognition doesn't hurt. Hence M3 Competition to set them apart plus more aggressive looks from wheels, brakes, etc. Most buyers would fit this profile.

CS models - this is for the even more affluent track junkies who want something they can occasionally daily but can really perform at the track. They will have a true daily vehicle or commuter car and take the CS to work on Fridays. There will be compromises but this type of buyer would rather have the performance over creature comforts. Smaller subset of buyers.

GTS models - this is for the collectors and very well to do buyer who has multiple BMWs and other marques and may be acquiring this type of car as a side investment hoping rarity will bring higher values in the future when they sell it on BAT for 25-50% markup with 750 miles on the odo. Very small subset which are most likely the wealthiest of BMW owners or owners from other premium marques.

These are just my thoughts/opinions. Others can add/subtract/edit

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

This is just purely conjecture, but based mostly from 20+ years of BMW ownership and forum experience/meeting other members, etc.

Base M3/6MT - this is for enthusiasts who want the basic car, possibly who are moving up from other non-premium brands like Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Kia, etc. These are the people who are stretching their budget most likely to get into an M3 for the brand/name recognition and performance. These are the same folks who don't check any options boxes or would have taken the cloth interior with no moonroof back in the day. Nothing wrong with that but think no frills and probably seat time at a HPDE with their car. Entry level buyer and new to the brand type.

With respect, I could not disagree more.

The people getting the Base are 6MT enthusiasts....period. As 6MT enthusiasts, almost all will be repeat buyers (because where else are they coming from other than the F30 340i?).

People new to the brand aren't likely to choose the Pure/6MT because if they're new to the brand, they haven't been driving a 6MT. If they are new to the brand but choose a 6MT, where are they coming from? Porsche? In that unlikely scenario, they can certainly afford other trims. And for those stretching their budget to get into an M3, they still have to drive 6MT to do so. People stretching their money are still 80% unlikely to choose a 6MT.

Some of us just choose our cars based on the transmissions first, everything else second. I have an M3 CS. Great car. I hate it. I miss the 6MT so bad (the CS is the first AND last non-6MT car I will ever own).

For me personally, I am able to afford a number of cars more expensive than the F80 or the G80. However, I love a 6MT and a 4 door. In the one situation I am able to speak for personally, and for a number of well funded enthusiasts I know who plan on getting a G8x in 6MT, I think your characterization is incorrect. It is missing the impact of the 6MT.

[solstice]

One of my friends (girl) who started buying M3s with the E92 primarily to track them get only one factory option, DCT. She thinks the M3 is too capable to slow down with MT, if she wanted a slower car with MT she would look elsewhere. I haven’t asked yet what she will do with the G8X but if no auto for the entry level I guess she will skip it. I don’t know how common these type of buyers are but they are definitely around.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

With respect, I could not disagree more.

I probably should have added a disclaimer that not everyone falls into one of those buckets b/c there's always exceptions.

[LOW4LYF]

Only people in the US think manual is pure, sportier, manly etc.

As I sold my 330ci manual couple weeks ago, I was really scarred on some test drives. Most manual guy's can't drive proper a stick shift! Sorry.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

I probably should have added a disclaimer that not everyone falls into one of those buckets b/c there's always exceptions.

Again, I am saying that you're dead wrong, not that there are exceptions to your conjecture.

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Again, I am saying that you're dead wrong, not that there are exceptions to your conjecture.

LoL sure buddy.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

This is just purely conjecture, but based mostly from 20+ years of BMW ownership and forum experience/meeting other members, etc.

Base M3/6MT - this is for enthusiasts who want the basic car, possibly who are moving up from other non-premium brands like Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Kia, etc. These are the people who are stretching their budget most likely to get into an M3 for the brand/name recognition and performance. These are the same folks who don't check any options boxes or would have taken the cloth interior with no moonroof back in the day. Nothing wrong with that but think no frills and probably seat time at a HPDE with their car. Entry level buyer and new to the brand type.

Competition Models - this probably for the more affluent buyer who probably doesn't buy the car to track it but just wants a nice sporty car to haul their kids around and go fast. Probably a more mature, middle age buyer, stable job, family, etc. This buyer wants the best of both worlds, all the creature comforts as well as the panache of performance on top and obviously brand name recognition doesn't hurt. Hence M3 Competition to set them apart plus more aggressive looks from wheels, brakes, etc. Most buyers would fit this profile.

CS models - this is for the even more affluent track junkies who want something they can occasionally daily but can really perform at the track. They will have a true daily vehicle or commuter car and take the CS to work on Fridays. There will be compromises but this type of buyer would rather have the performance over creature comforts. Smaller subset of buyers.

GTS models - this is for the collectors and very well to do buyer who has multiple BMWs and other marques and may be acquiring this type of car as a side investment hoping rarity will bring higher values in the future when they sell it on BAT for 25-50% markup with 750 miles on the odo. Very small subset which are most likely the wealthiest of BMW owners or owners from other premium marques.

These are just my thoughts/opinions. Others can add/subtract/edit

It’s not a bad analysis, but I think it is a bit off regarding most variants. IMO, the base is intended for either the “purist“ that are after a particular experience or the ones stretching their budget as you mention, the CS is intended more towards the original ///M crowd that seek a track toy that can be daily driven, while the CSL (ex-GTS) is meant as mainly a track toy that remains street legal to be driven to and from the track.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

LoL sure buddy.

It is 2020 my man. You don't buy a 6MT unless you're a complete lunatic, budget stretcher or not.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by xlover

The comp package is $7k usd on an x3m I expect it will be similar on the M3.

If the base model really is 6MT only, you might have to add the ZF 8HP option to that. For the base cars, that's over 2k EUR (in germany).

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

It is 2020 my man. You don't buy a 6MT unless you're a complete lunatic, budget stretcher or not.

You have me totally convinced. I must go sell my cars ASAP!

[solstice]

Originally Posted by LOW4LYF

Only people in the US think manual is pure, sportier, manly etc.

As I sold my 330ci manual couple weeks ago, I was really scarred on some test drives. Most manual guy's can't drive proper a stick shift! Sorry.

I doubt it’s most but a surprisingly large percent of my own sample size. My 75 year old mom easily out drive some of them I’ve been riding with over here in her MT GTI back in the motherland

Then again she has never driven an auto, I’m sure that would be just as scary stomping on the brake with the left foot by mistake reaching for a clutch

[seis-speed]

Lets do some market research.

I will buy a G80 manual or Blackwing ct5-v. But, I do agree that many manual buyers will go with less options and cloth seats, so the pure concept made sense to me.

While owning my 6MT F80, I met a lot of enthusiasts who had other cool cars and also owned a 6MT F80 as a family car. Their reason for purchase was availability of a manual and 4doors.

BMW has a nice little niche-product with the enthusiast community with the 4door M3, IMO.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

This is just purely conjecture, but based mostly from 20+ years of BMW ownership and forum experience/meeting other members, etc.

Base M3/6MT - this is for enthusiasts who want the basic car, possibly who are moving up from other non-premium brands like Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Kia, etc. These are the people who are stretching their budget most likely to get into an M3 for the brand/name recognition and performance. These are the same folks who don't check any options boxes or would have taken the cloth interior with no moonroof back in the day. Nothing wrong with that but think no frills and probably seat time at a HPDE with their car. Entry level buyer and new to the brand type.

Competition Models - this probably for the more affluent buyer who probably doesn't buy the car to track it but just wants a nice sporty car to haul their kids around and go fast. Probably a more mature, middle age buyer, stable job, family, etc. This buyer wants the best of both worlds, all the creature comforts as well as the panache of performance on top and obviously brand name recognition doesn't hurt. Hence M3 Competition to set them apart plus more aggressive looks from wheels, brakes, etc. Most buyers would fit this profile.

CS models - this is for the even more affluent track junkies who want something they can occasionally daily but can really perform at the track. They will have a true daily vehicle or commuter car and take the CS to work on Fridays. There will be compromises but this type of buyer would rather have the performance over creature comforts. Smaller subset of buyers.

GTS models - this is for the collectors and very well to do buyer who has multiple BMWs and other marques and may be acquiring this type of car as a side investment hoping rarity will bring higher values in the future when they sell it on BAT for 25-50% markup with 750 miles on the odo. Very small subset which are most likely the wealthiest of BMW owners or owners from other premium marques.

These are just my thoughts/opinions. Others can add/subtract/edit

Nothing wrong with throwing out some thoughts in a discussion forum...

I think I am generally aligned with your analysis on comp and up

However I dont agree with some of the comments on the 6MT base model. 6MT itself has evolved from being perceived as a 'lower cost option' to being a specialty option for traditionalists who are looking for a very specific driving experience.

BUT (and this was my point in general) I believe there could be a market for the consumer you called out and that I why I personally think they will offer an auto with the base model to attract those consumers who want to step above the M340 but not invest all the way into the comp pack but have never even driven a manual (much less want to)

[MFNATIK]

Originally Posted by xlover

Nothing wrong with throwing out some thoughts in a discussion forum...

I think I am generally aligned with your analysis on comp and up

However I dont agree with some of the comments on the 6MT base model. 6MT itself has evolved from being perceived as a 'lower cost option' to being a specialty option for traditionalists who are looking for a very specific driving experience.

BUT (and this was my point in general) I believe there could be a market for the consumer you called out and that I why I personally think they will offer an auto with the base model to attract those consumers who want to step above the M340 but not invest all the way into the comp pack but have never even driven a manual (much less want to)

Thanks for the added perspective. I actually agree that the 6MT has evolved as you stated. That's probably what the Frank n' Beans guy was trying to get at, but you said it more eloquently

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by MFNATIK

Thanks for the added perspective. I actually agree that the 6MT has evolved as you stated. That's probably what the Frank n' Beans guy was trying to get at, but you said it more eloquently

I think my initial response was quite eloquent and well reasoned. Subsequent responses perhaps not so much.

Simply put, you're missing the impact of the 6MT on the decision to buy the lesser car. You thanked this guy for the "added perspective" (while taking a shot at my username) and dismissed my comments. Not the finest conduct I've seen on these forums, but certainly not the worst.

Please read my initial response again.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I think my initial response was quite eloquent and well reasoned. Subsequent responses perhaps not so much.

Simply put, you're missing the impact of the 6MT on the decision to buy the lesser car. You thanked this guy for the "added perspective" (while taking a shot at my username) and dismissed my comments. Not the finest conduct I've seen on these forums, but certainly not the worst.

Please read my initial response again.

Originally Posted by frankiebones

Again, I am saying that you're dead wrong, not that there are exceptions to your conjecture.

Very eloquent and classy response there...

Originally Posted by frankiebones

I think my initial response was quite eloquent and well reasoned. Subsequent responses perhaps not so much.

Simply put, you're missing the impact of the 6MT on the decision to buy the lesser car. You thanked this guy for the "added perspective" (while taking a shot at my username) and dismissed my comments. Not the finest conduct I've seen on these forums, but certainly not the worst.

Please read my initial response again.

Perhaps you meant the same as xlover, but when I read it, his wording is better at making that point. At least from my perspective.

And when you say someone is dead wrong when they respond to your post and acknowledge the points you made, you probably should be prepared to get some funny comments in return...

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Very eloquent and classy response there...



Perhaps you meant the same as xlover, but when I read it, his wording is better at making that point. At least from my perspective.

And when you say someone is dead wrong when they respond to your post and acknowledge the points you made, you probably should be prepared to get some funny comments in return...

I appreciate your response. It's academic, but his response to my initial point was "i guess I should have said there were some exceptions to the rule." I felt that was dismissive of the time I took to enunciate my point, as I did my best to respond to his conjecture. I acknowledge my subsequent response was not my finest hour.

Perhaps, just perhaps, I am self conscious of my impending choice (driven by the 6MT) to get the "lesser model" I felt the need to attack someone who said it was for people who could barely afford the car....perhaps.

[Freak1c]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

.... the BMW paint shop did a horrible job... was never the same again

BMW has a paint shop in the USA outside of Spartanburg? Dealers do, but not BMW to my knowledge. Dealers seldom have the best body shop in an area but if they own one it becomes by default the preferred shop for the dealer. Caveat emptor!

The fronts are 19", tires is 275/35/19