[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

i really don't understand what is being argued in this thread anymore. i think both things have a purpose. alas in policitics and society everything is generalites and exteremism which is a means to tuirn us againist each other

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I literally did in my reply that you quoted. Most of those dealers are still selling EV's, he says they are not.

You offered no empirical data. Just emotion. I realize that to a certain group of people, fairy farts and good feelings are all you need but being a conservative I want facts.

According to the AN report, nearly 400 dealers have dropped out of Ford’s EV sales program since December.
It also cut one of three shifts at its EV plant in Michigan, where the F-150 Lightning is built. CFO John Lawler added the company has “taken out some Mustang Mach-E production” last month. He explained, “We are also slowing down several investments, including making a decision with SK On to delay the second BlueOval SK JV battery plant in Kentucky.”
Ford loses nearly 400 participants from its EV dealer program

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by dfox

Why are there so many youtube videos posted in this thread? Is that really where ya'll are getting your news these days? Biased dudes behind a camera who spin every little piece of information into clickbait?

EV's are fine. Chances are good the mandates will be pushed back or modified in some way, just like so many things in government. They set their sights high, and will end up settling for something less. Par for the course. I'd like to see something like 25% EV, 50% plug in, 25% ICE production targets for manufacturers, with exceptions or ways around it for certain manufacturers.

I have an EV and 2 ICE vehicles, and love our EV. As a commuter to sit in stop and go traffic, it's absolutely spectacular, and it's not even a good car at the end of the day, it's just that the drivetrain is so perfectly suited for stop and go traffic. I charge at home or at work (for free). If I'm going somewhere more than 200 miles where I might need to recharge, I just take the ICE instead.

Do I want all cars to be EV? Nah. But the anti-EV sentiment turns it into a black and white issue, and it's definitely not. Would be a whole lot more productive if we could all work together to determine where EV makes sense, and where it doesn't.

the sheep that lap up all these anti-EV videos that are most likely bought and paid for by big oil who spends millions every year on misinformation campaigns and lobbying ....it obviously works on some of them...it is a circle jerk of stupidity






non-stop youtube videos of morons with agendas somehow has them all convinced EV's are the devil

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You offered no empirical data. Just emotion. I realize that to a certain group of people, fairy farts and good feelings are all you need but being a conservative I want facts.

According to the AN report, nearly 400 dealers have dropped out of Ford’s EV sales program since December.
It also cut one of three shifts at its EV plant in Michigan, where the F-150 Lightning is built. CFO John Lawler added the company has “taken out some Mustang Mach-E production” last month. He explained, “We are also slowing down several investments, including making a decision with SK On to delay the second BlueOval SK JV battery plant in Kentucky.”
Ford loses nearly 400 participants from its EV dealer program

YOu're not listening. Like at all. Those dealers have pulled out of the program, yes, but youtube guy said they are pulling out of selling EV, that is NOT true. Like at all. Am I clear?

And I vote to the right BTW, I'm also very bearish on EV, I have said that many times. Not everything is liberal or conservative and black and white. You can just call BS when you see it and not wedge yourself on some sort of compulsory side of the fence stance on every issue. I still say we hit 30pc market share then hit a wall but the youtube bros are embarrassing.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

YOu're not listening. Like at all. Those dealers have pulled out of the program, yes, but youtube guy said they are pulling out of selling EV, that is NOT true. Like at all. Am I clear?

And your proof of this is? Am I clear?
The article I posted is from Electrek do you think they would print a negative EV article if it wasn't factual?

Why in the world would a car dealer make a $500,000 to $1,000,000 investment if their local market has no interest in EV's? ROI, It's called capitalism.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Let's hope , Sleepy Bernie wakes up on time !

He'll come round EVentually when ppl start shouting how their txes are being wasted on a dead turkey.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Why in the world would a car dealer make a $500,000 to $1,000,000 investment if their local market has no interest in EV's? ROI, It's called capitalism.

Jesus H. It doesn't cost 500K to $1M just to sell a basic EV, all you need are a few chargers. "The Program" is a TOTAL re-think of the entire dealership layout and experience to suit EV's and make it easier to sell them. Not having that program doesn't mean you cannot sell them.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Jesus H. It doesn't cost 500K to $1M just to sell a basic EV, all you need are a few chargers. "The Program" is a TOTAL re-think of the entire dealership layout and experience to suit EV's and make it easier to sell them. Not having that program doesn't mean you cannot sell them.

You have a reading issue. That was Fords mandate. It was tested in court and Ford is revising.

Ford Eases EV Requirements After Latest Litigation Setback
Dec 5, 2023
In the fall of 2022, Ford introduced an aggressive “Model e Program,” requiring its dealers to invest roughly $500,000-$1 million to install publicly accessible electric vehicle (EV) charging stations, invest in employee training, use the Ford.com e-commerce platform for all EV transactions, engage in “no-haggle” pricing, and provide remote delivery of all vehicle purchases if they wanted to continue selling Ford EVs.
Shortly after the Board’s Final Order was issued, Ford announced it would modify the program, cutting training costs in half, lowering the number of required EV chargers, and delaying the deadline to install them by 6 months.
https://www.seyfarth.com/news-insigh...n-setback.html

[dfox]

independently owned dealerships just need to go away altogether. stupid middleman that makes the car buying experience terrible for all involved.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Jesus H. It doesn't cost 500K to $1M just to sell a basic EV, all you need are a few chargers. "The Program" is a TOTAL re-think of the entire dealership layout and experience to suit EV's and make it easier to sell them. Not having that program doesn't mean you cannot sell them.

it might help if they just built better cars with better prices and infrastructure ...

Tesla has two of the top selling cars in the world atm and 2 million people have deposits on their latest vehicle, the cyber truck.

Proving Ford has issues selling EV's isn't exactly proof that people aren't buying EV's...they're just not buying Fords

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

it might help if they just built better cars with better prices and infrastructure ...

Tesla has two of the top selling cars in the world atm and 2 million people have deposits on their latest vehicle, the cyber truck.

Proving Ford has issues selling EV's isn't exactly proof that people aren't buying EV's...they're just not buying Fords

There's definitely an argument that the companies struggling seem to be domestic. I mean Toyota has not really committed but the Hyundai group is doing ok and so is volvo/polestar for example.

But I just cannot, for the life of me, get past the charging issue. I just can't, i cannot see how it will be ready for another 20+ years. You will need a public charger on every dang corner, untold millions of them. This doesn't mean there is not a market for EVs but 100% of new cars by 2035 or whatever it is? Not gonna happen, it just wont.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You have a reading issue. That was Fords mandate. It was tested in court and Ford is revising.

Ford Eases EV Requirements After Latest Litigation Setback
Dec 5, 2023
In the fall of 2022, Ford introduced an aggressive “Model e Program,” requiring its dealers to invest roughly $500,000-$1 million to install publicly accessible electric vehicle (EV) charging stations, invest in employee training, use the Ford.com e-commerce platform for all EV transactions, engage in “no-haggle” pricing, and provide remote delivery of all vehicle purchases if they wanted to continue selling Ford EVs.
Shortly after the Board’s Final Order was issued, Ford announced it would modify the program, cutting training costs in half, lowering the number of required EV chargers, and delaying the deadline to install them by 6 months.
https://www.seyfarth.com/news-insigh...n-setback.html

Right, so my understanding after that debacle was that Ford said right, to be an "Official WIZZ BANG Green Certified Ford WOW NOW dealership you need to spend 500K to 1.2Bn but joe Schlub off the street can still walk in, order a Mustang EV off the brochure and have it delivered to said dealer even if they are not part of the "Whizz bang" program.

[gonzo]

She can't read and refuses to listen. Like she is bought and paid for.

"Michigan Gov Whitmer orders state government fleet to be 100% electric by 2033"

Run Forrest, run!

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

There's definitely an argument that the companies struggling seem to be domestic. I mean Toyota has not really committed but the Hyundai group is doing ok and so is volvo/polestar for example.

But I just cannot, for the life of me, get past the charging issue. I just can't, i cannot see how it will be ready for another 20+ years. You will need a public charger on every dang corner, untold millions of them. This doesn't mean there is not a market for EVs but 100% of new cars by 2035 or whatever it is? Not gonna happen, it just wont.

well, Tesla is domestic and they pretty much own the market....

People need to realize that most EV owners have their own charging stations at home and seldom need to use charging stations.... only time I ever use them is on the occasional road trips...recently we took the Tesla on a road trip to Tahoe for Thanksgiving to visit family...over 1000 miles round trip....spent $123 in charging fees total and never stopped for more than 25 minutes and evry station had plenty of open spaces on a busy holiday week of travel....even spotted a cyber truck at one of them.

[Car-Addicted]

The truth is there are a lot of folks like me that will never own a LiPo powered EV. The environmental damage is way too much for me to swallow.
There are a lot of people that will never be able to afford a EV and the used EV market is very dangerous especially if your not well off and a multi car family.
Then there are the early adopters and the folks on the fence. These are upper income multi car families and if this group has a bad EV experience, they will be gone. When the prestige and "look at me factor" is gone and you are left with range anxiety and charge hassles the ICE will look a lot better.
This is the fault of government that thinks they can force people to comply. Judging by COVID mania and mask monkeys they are right. A free market approach based on Hybrids and EV's with out mandates would produced a better result. Heck if BMW had solid state batteries in a X5 xDrive50e I might even buy one.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

People need to realize that most EV owners have their own charging stations at home and seldom need to use charging stations....

Hard stop here. Yes, for now most are at home chargers but we will hit a wall where those folks are in an EV and everyone else who cannot get one at home, condo dwellers, street parking types etc, will need a public charger. Also a decent number of EV are second car in household, there is still aback up ICE if the family needs it for a long trip or whatever... so we will need copious, and I mean fucking COPIOUS amounts of chargers out int he public domain.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Hard stop here. Yes, for now most are at home chargers but we will hit a wall where those folks are in an EV and everyone else who cannot get one at home, condo dwellers, street parking types etc, will need a public charger. Also a decent number of EV are second car in household, there is still aback up ICE if the family needs it for a long trip or whatever... so we will need copious, and I mean fucking COPIOUS amounts of chargers out int he public domain.

yes, but that is kind of a shortsighted view point....by the time 2035 is here, most likely these cars will be more affordable, have much longer ranges and yes, there will be plenty of charging stations...but like I said, when most people charge at home/work there isn't the crazy demand...you know how empty gas stations would be if we most people filled up at home every night? .heck, they are already working on roads that have electromagnetic chargering built into them that charge cars as they go...

2035 is a long way away and many things will change by then and it will be another 30-40 years like 2075 by the time most of the cars on the road will be electric...if we are even driving cars in 2075....

None of us are ever going to see the day where every car is an EV ...we won't live that long

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

yes, but that is kind of a shortsighted view point....by the time 2035 is here, most likely these cars will be more affordable, have much longer ranges and yes, there will be plenty of charging stations...but like I said, when most people charge at home/work there isn't the crazy demand...you know how empty gas stations would be if we most people filled up at home every night? .heck, they are already working on roads that have electromagnetic chargering built into them that charge cars as they go...

2035 is a long way away and many things will change by then and it will be another 30-40 years like 2075 by the time most of the cars on the road will be electric...if we are even driving cars in 2075....

None of us are ever going to see the day where every car is an EV ...we won't live that long

I'm not so sure that 2035 is going to be the place that all the government types are pushing us to.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

by the time 2035 is here, most likely these cars will be more affordable, have much longer ranges and yes, there will be plenty of charging stations...

Public charging stations are like public laundromats. We have all had to use them at some point in our life but everyone had a big party when they got their own washer and drier and never had to go to a laundromats again.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

The truth is there are a lot of folks like me that will never own a LiPo powered EV. The environmental damage is way too much for me to swallow.

You just got blinders on and ignore the damage that oil has done and continues to do?

I love my ICE vehicles, and my EV, and I'm not going to pretend that either are saving the world, they're both bad in their own way. The big picture reality is that personal transportation is unsustainable for the human race. Unfortunately in the US our society is completely dependent upon it.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by dfox

You just got blinders on and ignore the damage that oil has done and continues to do?

Four years in earth science, specifically in stratigraphy (mining and oil exploration) so I think I'm on solid ground on what is environmentally damaging.

How many tons of overburden have to be removed to get the lithium ore, How many liters of water are required? Now lets move on to Cobalt and Copper?

Fun facts:
Currently, most lithium is extracted from hard rock mines or underground brine reservoirs, and much of the energy used to extract and process it comes from CO2-emitting fossil fuels. Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air.

Too many variables to truly determine the environmental impact of the entire live cycle of a ICE vs a EV but for me The ICE is the better long term play.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

The truth is there are a lot of folks like me that will never own a LiPo powered EV. The environmental damage is way too much for me to swallow.
There are a lot of people that will never be able to afford a EV and the used EV market is very dangerous especially if your not well off and a multi car family.
Then there are the early adopters and the folks on the fence. These are upper income multi car families and if this group has a bad EV experience, they will be gone. When the prestige and "look at me factor" is gone and you are left with range anxiety and charge hassles the ICE will look a lot better.
This is the fault of government that thinks they can force people to comply. Judging by COVID mania and mask monkeys they are right. A free market approach based on Hybrids and EV's with out mandates would produced a better result. Heck if BMW had solid state batteries in a X5 xDrive50e I might even buy one.

Bang on with what you have said..

Meanwhile in the UK serious limitations are coming in next month.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...cars-evs-vote/

The controversial mandate compels car manufacturers to ensure that at least 22 per cent of their vehicles sold will be electric from Jan 1.

By 2030, 80 per cent of cars sold will need to be zero emission, even though the outright ban on petrol and diesel does not come in until 2035.