[LarryMarcia]

Originally Posted by Gladius Nova

Hmmm..to each their own I guess. Tried these settings and it sounded like crap (IMO). Sounded like a weak signal FM station. Everyone's ear is different when processing sounds. I love the immersive sound of Logic 7.

So true!! I tried that and so many different settings. I could not get the HK to sound even 1/2 way decent. Ripped it out and replaced the entire system with FOCAL components. Worth every penny.

[I800C0LLECT]

I think adding a subwoofer and powering the underseat woofers is the only chance to make Logic 7 better. Otherwise it’s easier to start over. There’s a reason the plug and play market does so well with these vehicles. Just wish there was better center channel processing available from aftermarket pnp

[LarryMarcia]

^ Don't be sad that your car has the HIFI - it actually could be a good thing.

I came to learn that replacing the HK components are bit more difficult than swapping out the base HIFI.

The tech at the car audio shop I went to said replacing the HK components in the 3 series takes a few more hours of labor as compared to removing the HIFI.

Personally, I've listened to both the HIFI and the HK in the 3 series. I guess the HK is a bit better (not really sure though , as they both don't sound that good to me).

Still, nothing like the drastic improvement possible by spending approx 2-3K on a high end audio system.

When looking at an audio upgrade, don't be moved by name brand or price or specs or manufacturer, or anything. Just Simply listen to the system and decide what is best for you.

If you are near a local BMW dealer, ask them to listen to the Bowers / Wilkins system if any of the cars on the lot have it.

100% you will then want your car audio to sound like that!!!

[SLGrassoPA]

Originally Posted by pcfc234

Hi there, in my personal oppinion the G20 version of the H/K system isnt as good as the F30 version. It could be the weaker "amplifier" system or the DSP eq setting thats preloaded.

Not just the amplifier. The whole HK system is a joke of an upgrade.
That's my humble assessment.

[Tim 4723]

Originally Posted by LarryMarcia

Personally, I've listened to both the HIFI and the HK in the 3 series. I guess the HK is a bit better (not really sure though , as they both don't sound that good to me).

I don't understand how anyone who claims to be serious about car audio can make that statement. The difference is significant and obvious in my opinion. The HiFi was never going to be acceptable to me where as the HK system is decent, if slightly dissapointing.

I take my music listening seriously and have an expensive B&W stereo for home listening. I get the top spec stereo on all of my cars. The HK upgrade is better than the Canton I got on my Skoda Octavia (as it should be), slightly better than the B&O in my S3 (pretty close and the bass isn't as powerful if that's especially important) and not as good as the B&O in my wife's A5 (losing out on bass clarity and power and high end detail).

The HiFi is clearly worse than all the 4 systems I've been able to compare it to and it wasn't even close. The system in my works base model RAV4 is almost as good.

I wish the HK system was better and I can understand being dissapointed with the lack of a really high end option but acting like it's barely better than the HiFi system seems like a hell of a stretch to me.

[JJKiii]

Larry, I know you replaced all your HK speakers with FOCAL's, what did you do for an amp? Did your installer remove the stock RAM and Booster completely and replace with something else?

[LarryMarcia]

Speakers and AMP were both replaced with FOCAL components.

I don't know what the installer did with RAM or Booster, but I can tell you that FOCAL speakers and AMP made a significant difference and the quality is vastly improved over the Harman product that came with my car.

FOCAL will refer you to authorized and qualified installers in your area.

[JJKiii]

Originally Posted by LarryMarcia

Speakers and AMP were both replaced with FOCAL components.

I don't know what the installer did with RAM or Booster, but I can tell you that FOCAL speakers and AMP made a significant difference and the quality is vastly improved over the Harman product that came with my car.

FOCAL will refer you to authorized and qualified installers in your area.

I went the Bimmertech route and replaced the subs and added the Alpha One amp (re-branded Audiotec Fischer UP10 DSP). Probably not as good as your solution but 2/3's the cost. I actually emailed FOCAL prior to this but never heard back from them.

With the Alpha One amp, the RAM and Booster are retained and a custom harness is used to plug in the new amp (which is why I asked what your installer did).

Sound is much improved over stock HK and Bimmertech will send you custom tune files until you are satisfied.

[LarryMarcia]

I have personally heard the sound in 2 separate cars with the Alpha One / Bimmer-Tech speakers / Amp. My feeling - basically just as good as the FOCALS.

I probably could have saved some money. And the Alpha One components are probably more plug and play versus other after-market products.

My installer was big on FOCAL as he was familiar with the way they install into a 3 series with existing HK- and kind of pushed FOCAL for that reason. Hindsight is 20-20.

And No matter what - the Alpha One / Bimmer - Tech sound is excellent - and far, far superior to the HK that BMW offers in their 3 series. I understand Bommer Tech also has someone that actually picks up the phone if you need tech support which is nice.

[SLGrassoPA]

FYI -- Aside from Bimmer-Tech and Alpha One, there are many other quality car audio systems that will fit just fine as a replacement for the 330 / 340 HK. Take your time and go to a shop that has the various systems on display and pick what sounds best to you.

[JJKiii]

Originally Posted by SLGrassoPA

FYI -- Aside from Bimmer-Tech and Alpha One, there are many other quality car audio systems that will fit just fine as a replacement for the 330 / 340 HK. Take your time and go to a shop that has the various systems on display and pick what sounds best to you.

That's certainly true for the speakers but maybe not for the amp. In my opinion, the amp is the weakest link and is what differentiates the G20 from prior BMW's (F30, E9X, etc.).

[elambo]

Originally Posted by Tim 4723

I wish the HK system was better and I can understand being dissapointed with the lack of a really high end option but acting like it's barely better than the HiFi system seems like a hell of a stretch to me.

Absolutely correct. There's an awful lot of purchase justification happening in this thread (people who've paid a lot of money to move into different hardware) and "the HK is terrible" is a side effect of that justification. If I'd spent a few thousand on hardware I'd surely feel better thinking that I'd left something bad behind.

I listened to both BMW systems 5 minutes apart from each other and I didn't feel good about the stock stereo. I jumped into the car with the HK, made a few quick adjustments before we even put the car in drive, and immediately knew that it had potential. The stock stereo didn't have that potential.

Anyone in doubt (and in the LA area) I invite you to listen to what I'm getting from the HK, and then we can talk about the real reasons why some people might falsely suggest that it's a lame duck.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by elambo

Absolutely correct. There's an awful lot of purchase justification happening in this thread (people who've paid a lot of money to move into different hardware) and "the HK is terrible" is a side effect of that justification. If I'd spent a few thousand on hardware I'd surely feel better thinking that I'd left something bad behind.

I listened to both BMW systems 5 minutes apart from each other and I didn't feel good about the stock stereo. I jumped into the car with the HK, made a few quick adjustments before we even put the car in drive, and immediately knew that it had potential. The stock stereo didn't have that potential.

Anyone in doubt (and in the LA area) I invite you to listen to what I'm getting from the HK, and then we can talk about the real reasons why some people might falsely suggest that it's a lame duck.

You are projecting. People don't need to be told what to think, you know why? Because they have ears. And people who have ears, have heard the HK setup, and found it wanting. Some mickey mouse EQ doesn't change the fact the hardware is cheap garbage. You can literally purchase the HK speakers on Aliexpress for $17. Just think about that for a minute.

[j2dad5389]

Anyone know if the standard $799 plug play kit from Bavsound is good for hi fi or need an amp too?

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Montaver

You are projecting. People don't need to be told what to think, you know why? Because they have ears. And people who have ears, have heard the HK setup, and found it wanting. Some mickey mouse EQ doesn't change the fact the hardware is cheap garbage. You can literally purchase the HK speakers on Aliexpress for $17. Just think about that for a minute.

Excuse me but this is the thread for TWEAKING the Harman Kardon system settings for those of us who enjoy it and aren't interested in anything further.

There are other threads for you to pop off about what you don't like about HK. This is the thread for those of us who do.

[I800C0LLECT]

Originally Posted by Montaver

You are projecting. People don't need to be told what to think, you know why? Because they have ears. And people who have ears, have heard the HK setup, and found it wanting. Some mickey mouse EQ doesn't change the fact the hardware is cheap garbage. You can literally purchase the HK speakers on Aliexpress for $17. Just think about that for a minute.

You would be surprised how many “high end” brands use speakers less than $10. The real effort goes into the actual use of a speaker. Is it mounted well? Does it have enough air space? Should it be open baffle? What are the T/s for design application? Etc. This is where Penny pinching hurt the HK.

The HK has potential. Second and third order harmonics make a difference. Powering the under seat woofers and limiting them to 80Hz crossover will probably take it to a point where most are satisfied. Then adding a subwoofer and level matching will meet almost all expectations.

The HK is a good starting point but so is the HiFi. A great processor goes a long ways. JBL was winning SQ competitions with the factory speakers in a 3 series, plus processor and subwoofer. No gimmicks…they installed a JBL MS-8 the same way Best Buy would and it used Logic 7.

Just because you swap a speaker and it sounds different doesn’t mean the first one was bad. The speakers from factory are lighter weight because they’re a higher sensitivity. Bigger motor is more likely to need more power for the same output.

I’ve had bad factory stereos. This one isn’t anywhere near that. It has flaws but nothing that can’t be sorted with a subwoofer and processing

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by I800C0LLECT

You would be surprised how many “high end” brands use speakers less than $10. The real effort goes into the actual use of a speaker. Is it mounted well? Does it have enough air space? Should it be open baffle? What are the T/s for design application? Etc. This is where Penny pinching hurt the HK.

The HK has potential. Second and third order harmonics make a difference. Powering the under seat woofers and limiting them to 80Hz crossover will probably take it to a point where most are satisfied. Then adding a subwoofer and level matching will meet almost all expectations.

The HK is a good starting point but so is the HiFi. A great processor goes a long ways. JBL was winning SQ competitions with the factory speakers in a 3 series, plus processor and subwoofer. No gimmicks…they installed a JBL MS-8 the same way Best Buy would and it used Logic 7.

Just because you swap a speaker and it sounds different doesn’t mean the first one was bad. The speakers from factory are lighter weight because they’re a higher sensitivity. Bigger motor is more likely to need more power for the same output.

I’ve had bad factory stereos. This one isn’t anywhere near that. It has flaws but nothing that can’t be sorted with a subwoofer and processing

I don't factor in what happened at some 'competition' and neither should you. Listening is entirely subjective, that means one persons assessment of a setup can differ and no one is right or wrong. If people feel they can adjust the EQ to get a good setup that's great. By contrast it doesn't mean that those who find the setup unimpressive are wrong either.

As for the hardware, take off your door card and remove the mid range. Look at it, feel it in your hands. The magnet is tiny, its light and plasticky. It barely has a magnetic field, the pull on a magnetic torx bit is practically not existent when you hold it next to it. You cannot EQ around physics. The actual housing its in is pretty good, the doors feel well damped. I have spent plenty of time around high end audio hardware to know what good sounds, looks, and feels like. I do agree with you that penny pinching hurt the HK.

[I800C0LLECT]

I guess we all have our perspectives. I’ve been building car audio systems for years. A lot of people throw time and hardware at their builds hoping it will sound great. What is I said there’s a science or formula to follow so you don’t waste all that time and money? Well…there is an easier way.

Bill Fitz designs and sells speakers for a living…he says they’re great speakers. Remember, they’re high sensitivity. You don’t have to believe me. I’m just trying to help everybody save a dollar. My car is always open to your ears too. I’m in north Texas

[I800C0LLECT]

This is a good start on car audio from one of the industry leaders…

https://www.audiofrog.com/audiofrog-tech-blog/

Edit: Target curves are the end goal. Harman has spent years studying people and audio curves. Slight changes can sometimes appear dramatic and not understanding how EQ plays that role can turn us into the great destroyer of any audio system.

There’s very advanced processors that can allow you to draw the curves you want with an EQ. But that’s not what you should be doing unless you have those processors. Instead, they’re used to help correct the response in that environment. That’s all. And without a measurement we’re all using that EQ blindly with little success other than adding bass and highs

https://www.audiofrog.com/a-note-about-target-curves/

[I800C0LLECT]

Here’s another great question…why are speakers expensive?

When the product requires its own tooling and proprietary parts it’s extremely expensive to make. That’s the only reason car audio speakers are so expensive. They are small companies making a living off a small niche group of individuals.

There’s another group of engineers that understand this and prefer the “cheap” home audio speakers. My first subwoofer build where I stopped using bro science…family and friends were awe struck. Not that they actually cared about my hobbies but when I turned on music in the car or home they noticed immediately. It was a $30 subwoofer and 20 watt amp. First time in my life I had people begging me to build for them. It was a nice side gig.

The point being, that speaker was from a major name brand that sold their home theater subs for $5K. The speaker itself was deemed trash by its looks by forum members.

Add some passive crossovers for better filtering on the mids and tweets. Power the under seat woofers separately and dial them in with a subwoofer….Factory flaws are fixed. The speakers are better than we realize

[Montaver]

As an example, here is a Focal midrange next to the stock HK midrange. The HK magnet is tiny. The Focal is 30-40% heavier. These Focals have a sensitivity of 89.5db - what is the stock HK sensitivity?

[I800C0LLECT]

Not sure the t/s of the HK speakers or the focal speaker. Not even sure the magnet type either. Do the magnets present the same force on the coil? I can’t measure that. Bill Fitz has looked at the hifi versions and says they’re great…I can’t imagine the HK version being worse…maybe the same

https://speakerwizard.co.uk/driver-t...otor-strength/

Edit: I have a microphone for a field measurement. I can get A weighted and C weighted. Since I just moved from Germany it might be lost somewhere…I’ll look for it