[Dairdevyld]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I'll have a much better idea once I take delivery of the G80 next month. I'm relatively new to BMW ownership, but I understand in generations past the M cars have been significantly more "raw" than their non-M counterparts - both from comments as well as the few experiences I've had driving them. I didn't get that impression at all with the G80 the several times I've driven it. So in my mind it's very possible that there's some residual feeling from the F80 - because that absolutely was a harsh car - and people's perception of how the G80 should be based on previous M cars.

The whole comfort and usability argument stems from the fact that you can option an M3 to the exact spec of an M340i (i.e. driving assistance/traffic assistant, parking assistance, etc). So spec for spec (automatic M3 AWD compared to automatic m340i AWD), they should be identical in terms of usability and driving ease.

So really it comes down to seat comfort and suspension harshness. I'll report back after my 800 mile road trip how it comes to my m340i. But it's not simply higher quality materials - merino leather is inherently softer and smoother compared to vernasca, which is a hard and grainy leather. There's a reason the high end leather option in cars like the X7 is merino leather. And that's one of the reasons why IMO the seats are more comfortable (once you adjust the bolstering to your liking) in the M3 vs. the hard vernasca seats in the m340i.

I mean a lot of the harshness of previous M cars was because of technology. It was so much harder to blur the line between performance, comfort, and reliability. Today's tech, specifically adaptive suspension and variable engine response/noise/etc. makes it easier to blur the line for really high-performance vehicles. As someone who has always put the performance box first, it's easy for me to forget what trade-offs you might be making with something like an M3, but everytime I drive someone's luxury or non-performance focused vehicle I'm reminded how harsh and non-compliant performance vehicles are, even today.

BMW has always been hesitant to label anything M so them putting the badge on something from the factory means a lot. BMW has made some great performing cars without M badges (330i ZHP, E39 540, to name a few) so I like to believe the understand the value of the G20 and have vested in it the prestige of the M badge.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Dairdevyld

BMW has always been hesitant to label anything M so them putting the badge on something from the factory means a lot. BMW has made some great performing cars without M badges (330i ZHP, E39 540, to name a few) so I like to believe the understand the value of the G20 and have vested in it the prestige of the M badge.

Eh, I'm not so sure about that... BMW has been adding the M badge to non-M cars since the 70s. It's just now it's become much more prevalent which is why you now hear the term "///Marketing". Btw the 330i ZHP has m badging all over - the steering wheel, the shifter, the wheels, etc. My in laws have a basic 330ci and even that has m badging on the wheels from factory.

Even if you consider an "m performance" where the m badge comes in front of the model (i.e. m340i) that's nothing new either and dates back to the late 70s with cars like the m535 and m635. More recently you see examples such as the m550d, m135i, etc which have been around since the early 2010s.

[JABCAT]

I just take all the exterior emblems off

[jmg]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Looking at the BMW site, the M340 & the M3 have the same performance (0-60) despite the M3 having 100 hp bump - can someone explain that? Also running through the specs on both cars, I'm not sure what I'd be getting for the extra $18,000 base price? I'm not against paying more money for performance pkgs/options if they actually make it a better car than a lower trim level. I just can't see the huge price difference between these cars?

It's the same answer for pretty much every generation of 2/3/4 series. The true answer can be found in the gear ratios, final drive ratios, and how they relate to the torque and hp RPM delivery for the M340i and M3:

M340i ZF8 gear ratios:
1st: 5.25
2nd: 3.36
3rd: 2.17
4th: 1.72
5th: 1.32
6th: 1.00
7th: 0.82
8th: 0.64
Final drive 2.81
Maximum Horsepower: 382 @ 5000 RPM
Maximum Torque: 369 @ 1600 RPM


M3 ZF8 gear ratios:
1st: 5.00
2nd: 3.20
3rd: 2.14
4th: 1.72
5th: 1.31
6th: 1.00
7th: 0.82
8th: 0.64
Final drive: 3.15
Maximum Horsepower: 503 @ 6250 RPM
Maximum Torque: 479 @ 2750 RPM

The ratios are different for a reason. BMW engineers could easily make the more powerful M3 faster to 60 than a M340i, but they CHOSE NOT TO.
That deliberate choice that should tell us that BMW didn't prioritize 0-60 times with the M3.

That's never what the M cars were about. If someone only sees 0-60 as the be-all-that-end-all metric for performance, then the M340i is the economic choice. For those who understand that there is more to performance than 0-60, there's the M3. I've been down the path of explaining the lap after lap performance of a G80 vs a G20, F30 vs a F80 etc, and they all say "but I'm never going to track". Then they have the right car for their use and their price point.

Other differences between the G20 M340i and G80 M3:

Brakes: G80 uses 6 piston vs 4 in the G20. G20 also has smaller rotors
Tires: The G80 can accommodate larger tires for better handling
X-Drive: Same base system, but the G80 is re-tuned, strengthened and reinforced.
I haven't looked into the specifics but the suspension and cooling have been upgraded as well.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Sbu

If I go on BMW website and click on M, the M135i shows up, the M235i shows up, the M240i shows up, the M2 shows up, the M3, M4 show up, the M5 shows up.. to name but a few M cars

Anyone who says these are not M cars can go fly a kite.
The above is all M cars. Not baby, not true. Just ///M

Technically they are under "Additional M Models" and in a separate section from the M cars. Whatever that means.

[Dairdevyld]

Originally Posted by jmg

Technically they are under "Additional M Models" and in a separate section from the M cars. Whatever that means.

Not sure where on the website you're looking but from what I see under M models there are three sections; High-Performance M Models, Electrified Performance M Models, and Performance M Models.

[Dairdevyld]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Eh, I'm not so sure about that... BMW has been adding the M badge to non-M cars since the 70s. It's just now it's become much more prevalent which is why you now hear the term "///Marketing". Btw the 330i ZHP has m badging all over - the steering wheel, the shifter, the wheels, etc. My in laws have a basic 330ci and even that has m badging on the wheels from factory.

Even if you consider an "m performance" where the m badge comes in front of the model (i.e. m340i) that's nothing new either and dates back to the late 70s with cars like the m535 and m635. More recently you see examples such as the m550d, m135i, etc which have been around since the early 2010s.

Yes, but we wouldn't say the 330i ZHP is an M vehicle. M Performance parts is very different than putting an M in a vehicle name from the factory and not having the M designation be optional like it would be on an M-Sport vehicle. As jmg pointed out BMW makes deliberate decisions and if BMW didn't want the M340 to be seen as an M vehicle they would've probably made the M designation an option like they did on the 335's.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Dairdevyld

Yes, but we wouldn't say the 330i ZHP is an M vehicle. M Performance parts is very different than putting an M in a vehicle name from the factory and not having the M designation be optional like it would be on an M-Sport vehicle. As jmg pointed out BMW makes deliberate decisions and if BMW didn't want the M340 to be seen as an M vehicle they would've probably made the M designation an option like they did on the 335's.

As long as we understand it was a conscious decision by BMW, 40 years after the foundation stone of today’s M GmbH was laid, that in 2012, to quote BMW Press Group; "the experts in athletic driving turned their minds to a new project – the BMW M Performance Automobile as an expansion of the model range with a clear focus on athletic performance and unrestricted road-going capability as well as outstanding efficiency".

This follows the philosophy of the original M535i of 1978.

× BMW M Performance Automobiles form a new product category prioritising sharp sporting focus and outstanding efficiency.

× M expertise ensures flawless interplay of powertrain, chassis and aerodynamic balance.

× Familiar concept given a contemporary makeover: BMW M Performance cars follow in the tyre tracks of the BMW M535i.

"Extraordinary performance, well-rounded driving characteristics centred around the perfect harmony of powertrain, chassis and aerodynamically optimised design, and impressive efficiency set the BMW M Performance Automobiles apart. The new product category satisfies the demands of performance-minded drivers for enhanced driving pleasure coupled with unrestricted everyday usability"

I believe that last statement, (often quoted in a similar way in other material), sums up the M Performance models, over and above the M-sport models.

"The new product category satisfies the demands of performance-minded drivers for enhanced driving pleasure coupled with unrestricted everyday usability".

[Dairdevyld]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

As long as we understand it was a conscious decision by BMW, 40 years after the foundation stone of today’s M GmbH was laid, that in 2012, to quote BMW Press Group; "the experts in athletic driving turned their minds to a new project – the BMW M Performance Automobile as an expansion of the model range with a clear focus on athletic performance and unrestricted road-going capability as well as outstanding efficiency".

This follows the philosophy of the original M535i of 1978.

× BMW M Performance Automobiles form a new product category prioritising sharp sporting focus and outstanding efficiency.

× M expertise ensures flawless interplay of powertrain, chassis and aerodynamic balance.

× Familiar concept given a contemporary makeover: BMW M Performance cars follow in the tyre tracks of the BMW M535i.

"Extraordinary performance, well-rounded driving characteristics centred around the perfect harmony of powertrain, chassis and aerodynamically optimised design, and impressive efficiency set the BMW M Performance Automobiles apart. The new product category satisfies the demands of performance-minded drivers for enhanced driving pleasure coupled with unrestricted everyday usability"

I believe that last statement, (often quoted in a similar way in other material), sums up the M Performance models, over and above the M-sport models.

"The new product category satisfies the demands of performance-minded drivers for enhanced driving pleasure coupled with unrestricted everyday usability".

Totally agree.

[TheStoic]

Originally Posted by jmg

It's the same answer for pretty much every generation of 2/3/4 series. The true answer can be found in the gear ratios, final drive ratios, and how they relate to the torque and hp RPM delivery for the M340i and M3:

M340i ZF8 gear ratios:
1st: 5.25
2nd: 3.36
3rd: 2.17
4th: 1.72
5th: 1.32
6th: 1.00
7th: 0.82
8th: 0.64
Final drive 2.81
Maximum Horsepower: 382 @ 5000 RPM
Maximum Torque: 369 @ 1600 RPM


M3 ZF8 gear ratios:
1st: 5.00
2nd: 3.20
3rd: 2.14
4th: 1.72
5th: 1.31
6th: 1.00
7th: 0.82
8th: 0.64
Final drive: 3.15
Maximum Horsepower: 503 @ 6250 RPM
Maximum Torque: 479 @ 2750 RPM

The ratios are different for a reason. BMW engineers could easily make the more powerful M3 faster to 60 than a M340i, but they CHOSE NOT TO.
That deliberate choice that should tell us that BMW didn't prioritize 0-60 times with the M3.

That's never what the M cars were about. If someone only sees 0-60 as the be-all-that-end-all metric for performance, then the M340i is the economic choice. For those who understand that there is more to performance than 0-60, there's the M3. I've been down the path of explaining the lap after lap performance of a G80 vs a G20, F30 vs a F80 etc, and they all say "but I'm never going to track". Then they have the right car for their use and their price point.

Other differences between the G20 M340i and G80 M3:

Brakes: G80 uses 6 piston vs 4 in the G20. G20 also has smaller rotors
Tires: The G80 can accommodate larger tires for better handling
X-Drive: Same base system, but the G80 is re-tuned, strengthened and reinforced.
I haven't looked into the specifics but the suspension and cooling have been upgraded as well.

What do you mean shorter gearing? Take the final drive ratio of the M3 and it looks like it’s about geared even or may have a shorter (higher numerically) final 1st gear ratio than the M340i.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Dairdevyld

Yes, but we wouldn't say the 330i ZHP is an M vehicle. M Performance parts is very different than putting an M in a vehicle name from the factory and not having the M designation be optional like it would be on an M-Sport vehicle. As jmg pointed out BMW makes deliberate decisions and if BMW didn't want the M340 to be seen as an M vehicle they would've probably made the M designation an option like they did on the 335's.

Yes, it's a deliberate marketing decision. Again, the m340i is the successor to the 340i. There's nothing new or revolutionary about the m340i outside of natural product progression... it still uses a b58 motor like the 340i before it and it shares its suspension with the 330i m-sport. The "m performance" category is pure product segmentation, not some revolutionary "new" product. It's no more an M car than the 340i that it replaced or even the 330i zhp. BMW walks a fine line between promoting their mid tier cars while attempting to maintain exclusivity of their M cars. I'm simply pointing out that we shouldn't be duped by these marketing tactics. That says absolutely nothing about the capabilities of the m340i or its status. I still maintain it's an excellent car and the best in its class. But I for one am not falling for BMW's marketing tactics... irrespective of the M3. I've maintained this stance from the beginning before I even ordered my m340i.

As far as M performance parts.... the m340i is literally that... it uses an m sport suspension like the 330i m-sport... it uses m sport brakes... it uses an m sport differential... and it uses a tuned b58, which is not an M motor. In essence it's exactly like the 330i zhp in its use of m performance parts, except BMW's marketing department decided to slap an M badge before the model designation in addition to the flurry of m badges that were already on the 330i zhp because they thought that would sell more units.

BMW is VERY liberal with their use of M badging. That's the entire complaint of many enthusiasts... that "M" is watered down because you can get M badging in some form or another from the factory for practically any car in the lineup.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

BMW is VERY liberal with their use of M badging. That's the entire complaint of many enthusiasts... that "M" is watered down because you can get M badging in some form or another from the factory for practically any car in the lineup.

And.....why should anyone care? The entire point of this thread is to show that it doesn't matter. It is all marketing. The "proper" M marketing for a "proper" M car is equally marketing.

Nobody should care. I certainly don't care what so called "enthusiasts" think.

It is a car. You enjoy the car you drive, nothing more. That is what being a car enthusiast is about. It is not about how much money or how much "sport" car you have, or what brand/logos are on it, or what the spec sheet says, or what it "feels like" to drive. It is about enjoying the car you drive. Nothing more.

As I have said, and will continue to say, the only place this fight about the M marketing watering down the brand is on the internet, by people with more time and money than most people.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

And.....why should anyone care? The entire point of this thread is to show that it doesn't matter. It is all marketing. The "proper" M marketing for a "proper" M car is equally marketing.

Nobody should care. I certainly don't care what so called "enthusiasts" think.

It is a car. You enjoy the car you drive, nothing more. That is what being a car enthusiast is about. It is not about how much money or how much "sport" car you have, or what brand/logos are on it, or what the spec sheet says, or what it "feels like" to drive. It is about enjoying the car you drive. Nothing more.

As I have said, and will continue to say, the only place this fight about the M marketing watering down the brand is on the internet, by people with more time and money than most people.

To be fair this is a discussion forum... to have discussions... which is what this is.

In the grand scheme of things I agree it doesn't really matter, it's about what makes us all happy as car enthusiasts. I've been extremely happy with my m340i these past 3.5 years and it's the best car I've ever owned. But that doesn't mean I should stop engaging in discussion especially in a forum meant to foster discussion.

Besides, to answer your question about why should anyone care, my comment of the liberal use of the M badge was in response to a comment that stated that BMW has been hesitant to use the M badge.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by TheStoic

What do you mean shorter gearing? Take the final drive ratio of the M3 and it looks like it’s about geared even or may have a shorter (higher numerically) final 1st gear ratio than the M340i.

The purpose of posting the gear ratios was to show that BMW chose those ratios purposefully, and if they wanted the M3 to be faster to 60 than the M340i, they could easily have chosen different ratios for both cars strategically. . As it stands, the ratios were chosen to complement each vehicle’s characteristics (hp and torque @ RMP, fuel economy etc) and allowing for the same or similar 0-60 wasn’t a concern because it is not a defining characteristic of an M car.

Additionally, gears 5-8 on both cars are similar, but the final drive of the M3 highlights what the car was engineered to do: be fast on the track, where the shorter final drive ratio allow the car to accelerate faster and take advantage of straights in higher gears. Straights on a track are short compared to highway driving so the faster the car gets to higher speeds the better. On the street, the M340i final drive ratio is good for cruising, when getting to faster speeds quicker isn’t as important as fuel economy at those speeds. The street engineered M340i won’t reach higher speeds in gears 5-8 as quickly compared to the M3, which is appropriate for what they were designed to do.

To come full circle, on the track, 0-60 doesn’t really come into play. The car is only starting from a stop on the first lap, which is a warm up lap anyway. Acceleration from 25-100+ is where track cars want the most advantage.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Yes, it's a deliberate marketing decision. Again, the m340i is the successor to the 340i. There's nothing new or revolutionary about the m340i outside of natural product progression...

Do you mean the standard 340i M-sport, or as many uses, a 340i with 'pick and mix' M Performance packages added, including the M Performance suspension? Many customers were wanting a factory package in the F30, like the 1 and 2-series already had, rather than build their own package. I definitely see it as a progression, but not a big enough market to have both a G20 340i and the M340i.

Originally Posted by wtwo3

BMW is VERY liberal with their use of M badging. That's the entire complaint of many enthusiasts... that "M" is watered down because you can get M badging in some form or another from the factory for practically any car in the lineup.

BMW intentionally capitalised on the original 'halo' M1 with the first M badging on models with some M motorsport involvement. Marketing a brand is what businesses look to do. We simply feed the beasts.

Why do some enthusiasts get their knickers in a twist about BMW using the 'M'? I sense some want 'M' exclusiveness. BMW gave that idea up years ago, to keep in business and make decent profits.

In my experience, M-Technic, M-Sport, M Performance, M Cars, all have helped the BMW brand. More customers have a taste of the 'M', even if it is only an 'M' steering wheel.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Do you mean the standard 340i M-sport, or as many uses, a 340i with 'pick and mix' M Performance packages added, including the M Performance suspension? Many customers were wanting a factory package in the F30, like the 1 and 2-series already had, rather than build their own package. I definitely see it as a progression, but not a big enough market to have both a G20 340i and the M340i.

No definitely not saying there should be a G20 340i and M340i. My only point is that the M340i is not a "new" product line. It's simply the natural progression of the f30 340i, and BMW decided to package up the M performance bits.

It's not a new product, it's a new product category - there's a difference. People seem to think this is some revolutionary new product to bridge the gap between the regular 3 series and the M3. No.... the 340i which preceded it was already doing that.... now it just has an m badge in front of it.

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

BMW intentionally capitalised on the original 'halo' M1 with the first M badging on models with some M motorsport involvement. Marketing a brand is what businesses look to do. We simply feed the beasts.

Why do some enthusiasts get their knickers in a twist about BMW using the 'M'? I sense some want 'M' exclusiveness. BMW gave that idea up years ago, to keep in business and make decent profits.

In my experience, M-Technic, M-Sport, M Performance, M Cars, all have helped the BMW brand. More customers have a taste of the 'M', even if it is only an 'M' steering wheel.

I think people wanting "M exclusiveness" is exactly why many enthusiasts do complain about the use of M badging. It's the same conversation over at Mercedes with AMG badging. People in general like to justify their purchases.

I agree it's all about marketing capitalizing on the motorsport aspect, regardless of it's 330i with m sport, m340i, or M3.... it's all a marketing effort. My point throughout this entire thing has been that the "m performance" cars (m240i, m340i, m550i, etc) are not new products - they're just natural progression of the 240i,340i, 550i which preceded them.

Even before I ordered my m340i, I didn't place any extra importance on it because of the "m" badging, because in my mind that was nothing more than a marketing tactic and in reality it was just the new generation of 340i. I guess you can say I'm apathetic to most marketing efforts like this. If BMW had a 340i and say, an m350i in the lineup, now we can say this is a "new" product offering (yes, I know there's no room for something like that, but for discussion sake). But to me, simply adding an "m" in front of 340i while my car still shares its suspension with the 330i and my engine is just a tuned b58 from the f30 340i - I wasn't going to fall for it. I bought my m340i because it's an excellent car - not because it has an m badge in front of it - and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Now one caveat to all this which I think is an interesting move by BMW. The X7 - the pre-LCI m50i has been replaced by an m60i. So now they're actually changing the name of it. But more interesting than that is the engine choice. The pre-LCI m50i used the N63, but this LCI m60i is now using a detuned S63, which is an actual M motor. Now obviously there is no X7M in the lineup. The m60i doesn't perform any better than the m50i did (thanks to the detuning of the S63 in the m60i, and the fact that the rest of the specifications are essentially the same such as suspension setups, weight, etc) - but an interesting move nonetheless. The S63 has a few key differences to the N63 engine - such as the turbo setup, cooling, etc. So it begs the question - if we, instead of an m340i, were to get something like an m350i with a de-tuned s58 engine - how would this conversation be different? While I think the same delineation is still there - M car, M performance car - would we now say this is a brand new product, or is it still progression of the f30 340i?

[TheStoic]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

No definitely not saying there should be a G20 340i and M340i. My only point is that the M340i is not a "new" product line. It's simply the natural progression of the f30 340i, and BMW decided to package up the M performance bits.

It's not a new product, it's a new product category - there's a difference. People seem to think this is some revolutionary new product to bridge the gap between the regular 3 series and the M3. No.... the 340i which preceded it was already doing that.... now it just has an m badge in front of it.




I think people wanting "M exclusiveness" is exactly why many enthusiasts do complain about the use of M badging. It's the same conversation over at Mercedes with AMG badging. People in general like to justify their purchases.

I agree it's all about marketing capitalizing on the motorsport aspect, regardless of it's 330i with m sport, m340i, or M3.... it's all a marketing effort. My point throughout this entire thing has been that the "m performance" cars (m240i, m340i, m550i, etc) are not new products - they're just natural progression of the 240i,340i, 550i which preceded them.

Even before I ordered my m340i, I didn't place any extra importance on it because of the "m" badging, because in my mind that was nothing more than a marketing tactic and in reality it was just the new generation of 340i. I guess you can say I'm apathetic to most marketing efforts like this. If BMW had a 340i and say, an m350i in the lineup, now we can say this is a "new" product offering (yes, I know there's no room for something like that, but for discussion sake). But to me, simply adding an "m" in front of 340i while my car still shares its suspension with the 330i and my engine is just a tuned b58 from the f30 340i - I wasn't going to fall for it. I bought my m340i because it's an excellent car - not because it has an m badge in front of it - and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Now one caveat to all this which I think is an interesting move by BMW. The X7 - the pre-LCI m50i has been replaced by an m60i. So now they're actually changing the name of it. But more interesting than that is the engine choice. The pre-LCI m50i used the N63, but this LCI m60i is now using a detuned S63, which is an actual M motor. Now obviously there is no X7M in the lineup. The m60i doesn't perform any better than the m50i did (thanks to the detuning of the S63 in the m60i, and the fact that the rest of the specifications are essentially the same such as suspension setups, weight, etc) - but an interesting move nonetheless. The S63 has a few key differences to the N63 engine - such as the turbo setup, cooling, etc. So it begs the question - if we, instead of an m340i, were to get something like an m350i with a de-tuned s58 engine - how would this conversation be different? While I think the same delineation is still there - M car, M performance car - would we now say this is a brand new product, or is it still progression of the f30 340i?

What are you trying to accomplish?

[madpistol]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I just take all the exterior emblems off

I was actually thinking about doing this to my M440i GC.

• Debadge
• Black wrap the roof
• Replace stock tailpipes with quads

Make people go "Wait... what is that?"

Me: "It's an M car. Scrub. LAUNCH CONTROL ACTIVATED!!!!"

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by TheStoic

What are you trying to accomplish?

To have a discussion.... isn't that one of the points of a forum?

Anyway, I'm not surprised that I have an unpopular opinion here

I think OP's intention was to give his thoughts about the m340i in comparison to his G82 and ask us all what our thoughts on it were. I think his OP was very fair and describes the car very well. I've not once bashed the m340i (except to say it's under-tired) and I've stated multiple times it's been the best car I've ever owned. I was just trying to discuss the marketing aspect of adding the "m" badge on to it, which I guess strikes a nerve with people so I'll leave it.

[TheStoic]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

To have a discussion.... isn't that one of the points of a forum?

Anyway, I'm not surprised that I have an unpopular opinion here

I think OP's intention was to give his thoughts about the m340i in comparison to his G82 and ask us all what our thoughts on it were. I think his OP was very fair and describes the car very well. I've not once bashed the m340i (except to say it's under-tired) and I've stated multiple times it's been the best car I've ever owned. I was just trying to discuss the marketing aspect of adding the "m" badge on to it, which I guess strikes a nerve with people so I'll leave it.

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by TheStoic

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Yeah I get that a lot

[Dairdevyld]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

No definitely not saying there should be a G20 340i and M340i. My only point is that the M340i is not a "new" product line. It's simply the natural progression of the f30 340i, and BMW decided to package up the M performance bits.

It's not a new product, it's a new product category - there's a difference. People seem to think this is some revolutionary new product to bridge the gap between the regular 3 series and the M3. No.... the 340i which preceded it was already doing that.... now it just has an m badge in front of it.




I think people wanting "M exclusiveness" is exactly why many enthusiasts do complain about the use of M badging. It's the same conversation over at Mercedes with AMG badging. People in general like to justify their purchases.

I agree it's all about marketing capitalizing on the motorsport aspect, regardless of it's 330i with m sport, m340i, or M3.... it's all a marketing effort. My point throughout this entire thing has been that the "m performance" cars (m240i, m340i, m550i, etc) are not new products - they're just natural progression of the 240i,340i, 550i which preceded them.

Even before I ordered my m340i, I didn't place any extra importance on it because of the "m" badging, because in my mind that was nothing more than a marketing tactic and in reality it was just the new generation of 340i. I guess you can say I'm apathetic to most marketing efforts like this. If BMW had a 340i and say, an m350i in the lineup, now we can say this is a "new" product offering (yes, I know there's no room for something like that, but for discussion sake). But to me, simply adding an "m" in front of 340i while my car still shares its suspension with the 330i and my engine is just a tuned b58 from the f30 340i - I wasn't going to fall for it. I bought my m340i because it's an excellent car - not because it has an m badge in front of it - and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Now one caveat to all this which I think is an interesting move by BMW. The X7 - the pre-LCI m50i has been replaced by an m60i. So now they're actually changing the name of it. But more interesting than that is the engine choice. The pre-LCI m50i used the N63, but this LCI m60i is now using a detuned S63, which is an actual M motor. Now obviously there is no X7M in the lineup. The m60i doesn't perform any better than the m50i did (thanks to the detuning of the S63 in the m60i, and the fact that the rest of the specifications are essentially the same such as suspension setups, weight, etc) - but an interesting move nonetheless. The S63 has a few key differences to the N63 engine - such as the turbo setup, cooling, etc. So it begs the question - if we, instead of an m340i, were to get something like an m350i with a de-tuned s58 engine - how would this conversation be different? While I think the same delineation is still there - M car, M performance car - would we now say this is a brand new product, or is it still progression of the f30 340i?

Well, I think this kind of brings us to the overarching question which is do you rate components more than a car's nomenclature? I think the point you've made several times is that the M340 shares many components with a traditional 330 and that the B58 isn't as special as the S58 which makes the M designation less authentic than a "true" M car. I think an M350i would certainly be closer to what many have defined as a true "m" car as you've described it. However, I don't think you would even need to rename it from M340i. If it had a detuned S58 I think it'd be a harder delineation from the M3/4.

What I will say is that BMW seems to have tried to create the delineation you talk about. The B58 is only available in M-badged vehicles. All these vehicles BMW labels as "Road ready vehicles enhanced with the epic engineering of M" and are listed under the M models on their website. I don't think this is so much a continuation of the F series 340 as a broadening of the influence and delineation within the M ranks (the expansion of Alpina also plays in here as well). From what I can see buyers that have opted for the E series 335 and F series 340 were drawn in by performance more than anything. So it makes sense that BMW would eliminate the more luxury-focused aspects of these vehicles and make them more performance sub/by-products of the M division.

As TheMaxXHD stated, it's all marketing. I think we're all really expressing different beliefs on what M is. Some people think M is a limited product and engineering/designing effort for a set vehicle, whereas others think there's more of an overlap and the M is sprinkled across the brand. I tend to think that BMW has high performance (M), high luxury (Alpina), and its traditional line and all the performance and luxury aspects have become bigger divisions than they once were and contribute to more of the traditional line and even encompassing some vehicles within the traditional line rather than just providing bits and pieces.