Bimmerpost
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) Newest info updates: G80 M3 Pure, Base and Competition models (Updated May 20, 2019)

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-17-2019, 12:44 PM   #419
mxchris727
Captain
mxchris727's Avatar
United_States
145
Rep
618
Posts

Drives: E93 335i, E39 (Both 6-speed)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wilton, CT/Boston, MA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
BMW M is a niche product line and with the pressure to cut corporate costs to pay for EV R&D, there will be unhappy customers— BMW AG is prepared for this. Time to embrace and accept that 6MT is yesterday's news.
I don't believe this is entirely true. The EV R&D is being offset by the CLAR architecture and other production consolidations. As true with any company, strategy, customer loyalty, and branding are of upmost importance when it comes to an increasingly competitive market.
__________________

BMW GT1 (INPA, DIS, WinKFP, ect..), ISTA/P & /D is up and running! PM me if you want to stop by and code your car.
Appreciate 0
      06-17-2019, 11:03 PM   #420
Ibiza
Major
Ibiza's Avatar
United_States
1073
Rep
1,315
Posts

Drives: 2018 F83 ZCP & 2018 F85
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Charleston, SC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxchris727 View Post
I don't believe this is entirely true. The EV R&D is being offset by the CLAR architecture and other production consolidations. As true with any company, strategy, customer loyalty, and branding are of upmost importance when it comes to an increasingly competitive market.
Total M vehicle production was around 100,000 units in 2018 where as BMW AG manufactured 2.49 million units world wide. M division represents 4% of total sales, as the 6MT take rate has been 50% for the US market M2, but below 30% for the F80/82/83. The M5, 6MGC, X5M and X6M were all 8AT production in 2018. I agree 110% regarding a successful business needs strategy and customer retention, but M vehicle 6MT is probably less than 1% of all BMW AG world wide sales. From a ROI analysis, there is no financial justification to continue 6MT R&D with your OEM part suppliers. This is a text book case from Harvard Business Review, as the 6MT R&D cost is too high even when the higher M vehicle profit margin is factored in-- figure 50% of the current 6MT customers will purchase a 8AT and the remaining vocal 6MT will leave for other brands as the cost of enthusiast 6MT customer retention is too high for BMW AG.
__________________
2018 X5M 1/18 PCD
2018 M4 cabrio ZCP- ED 9/17- PCD 12/17
Retired:
2015 X5 50i PCD, 2015 435 Cabrio ED, 2011 X3 PCD, 2011 335is Cabrio ED/PCD, 2007 X3is PCD, 2007 335i Cabrio PCD, 2004 328i Cabrio PCD
Appreciate 1
paliknight1257.50

      06-18-2019, 01:12 AM   #421
brad850csi
Lieutenant Colonel
505
Rep
1,523
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Total M vehicle production was around 100,000 units in 2018 where as BMW AG manufactured 2.49 million units world wide. M division represents 4% of total sales, as the 6MT take rate has been 50% for the US market M2, but below 30% for the F80/82/83. The M5, 6MGC, X5M and X6M were all 8AT production in 2018. I agree 110% regarding a successful business needs strategy and customer retention, but M vehicle 6MT is probably less than 1% of all BMW AG world wide sales. From a ROI analysis, there is no financial justification to continue 6MT R&D with your OEM part suppliers. This is a text book case from Harvard Business Review, as the 6MT R&D cost is too high even when the higher M vehicle profit margin is factored in-- figure 50% of the current 6MT customers will purchase a 8AT and the remaining vocal 6MT will leave for other brands as the cost of enthusiast 6MT customer retention is too high for BMW AG.

I agree with everything you said, but I feel a slightly longer term issue with this might be people considering the move to other brands, then never coming back and BMW losing their reputation as a manufacturer that is different to all of the others - eventually leaving them as another Acura or Infiniti.
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 3
Sedan_Clan3590.00
kyrix1st622.00

      06-18-2019, 05:15 AM   #422
kyrix1st
Major
kyrix1st's Avatar
Japan
622
Rep
1,004
Posts

Drives: E36 M3 Euro, E36/7, E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kyoto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2004 BMW Z4  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I agree with everything you said, but I feel a slightly longer term issue with this might be people considering the move to other brands, then never coming back and BMW losing their reputation as a manufacturer that is different to all of the others - eventually leaving them as another Acura or Infiniti.
M division should be ashamed of themselves for replacing M DCT with ZFat. They know full well the transmission responds nowhere as fast as DCT under demanding conditions.
__________________
Pass me if you can.
Appreciate 1
      06-18-2019, 08:29 AM   #423
adc
Major General
United_States
1359
Rep
5,706
Posts

Drives: 2015 F80 M3 ED
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MD/DC

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I agree with everything you said, but I feel a slightly longer term issue with this might be people considering the move to other brands, then never coming back and BMW losing their reputation as a manufacturer that is different to all of the others - eventually leaving them as another Acura or Infiniti.
This.

As the world moves towards electrification where brand differentiation will be harder to maintain as differences shrink, I would think BMW needs all its current owners to stay true within the brand.

If I decide to buy a Porsche next (even second hand) or a nice American track car, what on earth will make me come back to BMW in 5 years?? Some 9 speed auto with a mild hybrid boost? Idrive 9.2 with emotional scent feature?
__________________

2018 F80 Santorini
2004 Z4 3.0
2014 X3 35i
Appreciate 6
JTO242302.00
kyrix1st622.00
ra2289108.00
solstice1374.00
kern4172020.00

      06-18-2019, 09:40 AM   #424
F82PRETEND
Colonel
F82PRETEND's Avatar
956
Rep
2,721
Posts

Drives: Freya - 2018 MGM M4
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
M division should be ashamed of themselves for replacing M DCT with ZFat. They know full well the transmission responds nowhere as fast as DCT under demanding conditions.
I think the post above mentioning that M has no choice is probably right...what's confounding is why not just use the existing DCT...it's robust enough to go another generation.
Appreciate 0
      06-18-2019, 09:13 PM   #425
seis-speed
#savethemanuals
seis-speed's Avatar
United_States
1099
Rep
1,306
Posts

Drives: 1M | 991T
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
From a ROI analysis, there is no financial justification to continue 6MT
Analytics and ROI calculations do not factor in emotional aspects of the human customer. After ruining a set of tires at M school, I asked why BMW offered M school? The director stated “it was all for customer retention, they lose money on all students, but they gain retention, because the customer is fully invested into M”....
Appreciate 1
JTO242302.00

      06-18-2019, 09:31 PM   #426
Ibiza
Major
Ibiza's Avatar
United_States
1073
Rep
1,315
Posts

Drives: 2018 F83 ZCP & 2018 F85
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Charleston, SC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
Analytics and ROI calculations do not factor in emotional aspects of the human customer. After ruining a set of tires at M school, I asked why BMW offered M school? The director stated "it was all for customer retention, they lose money on all students, but they gain retention, because the customer is fully invested into M"....
Replacing 4 tires is cheap for the performance center considering that Continental is a sponsor— wouldn't be surprised if the tires are free for the PC. Can't compare tires to the R&D cost of millions of dollars for a few thousand 6MT M vehicles.

PS did you notice the M3/M4 20 inch ZMP tires are not factory Michelin Super Sports, but Conti's?

If it was all for customer retention, then why did the Performance Center cancel all the off site Advance M Schools? Finally, the PC staff is all outsourced third party contractors expect for 2 individuals (who I will not name due to privacy). We'll see how fully invested you are when the G80 is 8AT, as the PC doesn't offers 6MT vehicles— only the M1 was 6MT.
__________________
2018 X5M 1/18 PCD
2018 M4 cabrio ZCP- ED 9/17- PCD 12/17
Retired:
2015 X5 50i PCD, 2015 435 Cabrio ED, 2011 X3 PCD, 2011 335is Cabrio ED/PCD, 2007 X3is PCD, 2007 335i Cabrio PCD, 2004 328i Cabrio PCD
Appreciate 1
JTO242302.00

      06-19-2019, 03:47 PM   #427
seis-speed
#savethemanuals
seis-speed's Avatar
United_States
1099
Rep
1,306
Posts

Drives: 1M | 991T
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Planet Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Replacing 4 tires is cheap for the performance center considering that Continental is a sponsor— wouldn't be surprised if the tires are free for the PC. Can't compare tires to the R&D cost of millions of dollars for a few thousand 6MT M vehicles.

PS did you notice the M3/M4 20 inch ZMP tires are not factory Michelin Super Sports, but Conti's?

If it was all for customer retention, then why did the Performance Center cancel all the off site Advance M Schools? Finally, the PC staff is all outsourced third party contractors expect for 2 individuals (who I will not name due to privacy). We'll see how fully invested you are when the G80 is 8AT, as the PC doesn't offers 6MT vehicles— only the M1 was 6MT.
Valid points.

It is a large automobile corporation at the end of the day, in recent years, I have become a huge fan of BMW for still offering manual transmission cars, European Delivery and adding the Thermal location.

If they do not offer 6MT on the G80 it will probably signal the end of my relationship with the brand. I will go (full investment) wherever the manual transmission goes......
Appreciate 1
      07-05-2019, 09:37 AM   #428
Ilyam5
Captain
390
Rep
687
Posts

Drives: 06 M3
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ma

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
{removed}
In one year, July 2020, 4 Series production starts. The M3 will come shortly after as MY 2021.

- The 4 Series front will show you the front of the M3.
- Go drive an M340i xDrive. That will tell you roughly how it will handle.
- Go drive an X3 M. That will tell you about the engine and drivetrain.

Put all three together - voila.
Appreciate 3
      08-04-2019, 08:31 AM   #429
bimmer456
Major General
1784
Rep
5,063
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA

iTrader: (0)

So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
Appreciate 0
      08-04-2019, 09:41 AM   #430
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
5441
Rep
18,433
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
Although BMW offers their “Integral Active Steering” rear wheel steering for the 5 Series and 7 Series, it is not available for the 3 Series nor the M5. This means it is virtually guaranteed not to be available for the M3 either.
Appreciate 1
JTO242302.00

      08-04-2019, 10:13 AM   #431
bimmer456
Major General
1784
Rep
5,063
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
Although BMW offers their “Integral Active Steering” rear wheel steering for the 5 Series and 7 Series, it is not available for the 3 Series nor the M5. This means it is virtually guaranteed not to be available for the M3 either.
My front wheel drive Camry has a great turn radius. They should be able to do that with all wheel drive, especially with a shorter wheelbase. We'll have to see if it still has a good turn radius.
Appreciate 0
      08-06-2019, 02:42 PM   #432
BwoodBMW
Colonel
BwoodBMW's Avatar
1483
Rep
2,269
Posts

Drives: EFFEIGHTY
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LA LA land

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
Appreciate 1
JTO242302.00

      08-06-2019, 02:46 PM   #433
solstice
Brigadier General
1374
Rep
4,438
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BwoodBMW View Post
my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
I was just going to say that. Our Cayenne with AWD has a much shorter turn radius. On the other hand if you live in the U.S like me large turn radius is kind of a non issue. Everything really is big over here
Appreciate 1
clee1982494.50

      08-06-2019, 04:19 PM   #434
bimmer456
Major General
1784
Rep
5,063
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BwoodBMW View Post
my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
I was just going to say that. Our Cayenne with AWD has a much shorter turn radius. On the other hand if you live in the U.S like me large turn radius is kind of a non issue. Everything really is big over here
My F30 RWD turn radius I'd say is fine not amazing considering my larger Camry with front wheel drive has about the same turn radius. You'd think they could do better if the front wheels aren't drive wheels or even if it's AWD. If it costs over $50k it should be able to do things cheaper cars can't. Even in the US we have tight parking lots and small parking spaces so a tight turn radius is needed. It's annoying when you have to back up and turn opposite lock when if you had a better turn radius you wouldn't have to.
Appreciate 0
      08-07-2019, 07:07 AM   #435
kern417
Cheapskate
United_States
2020
Rep
3,146
Posts

Drives: 2018 440i / 2010 X5
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cincinnati

iTrader: (0)

If your rwd car has a crappy turn radius, then that just means you're not using enough throttle
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by umizoomi View Post
As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
Instagram @kern417
Appreciate 3
      08-07-2019, 09:53 AM   #436
F82PRETEND
Colonel
F82PRETEND's Avatar
956
Rep
2,721
Posts

Drives: Freya - 2018 MGM M4
Join Date: May 2006
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
If your rwd car has a crappy turn radius, then that just means you're not using enough throttle
This!
Appreciate 1
kern4172020.00

      08-07-2019, 02:32 PM   #437
NUTScapes
Brigadier General
NUTScapes's Avatar
United_States
6478
Rep
4,670
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BwoodBMW View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
So the M boss confirmed it will have all wheel drive. Will it also have all wheel steer? This will overcome turn radius issues normally associated with all wheel drive cars.
my F80 has the worst turn radius of any car i've ever owned. It can't get worse.
Volvo S60R: "Hold my beer"
Turning circle: 43 feet
(F80 is 40 feet)
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 AM.




g20
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST