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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) G80 M3 vs. Tesla Model 3 Performance

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      02-15-2019, 01:25 AM   #67
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Z35is - I looked at the Alfa as well - wasn't too fond of the tighter interior space or poor rated reliability.

I also went to the local BMW dealer to check out the f80. I was shocked to see that the salesman admit how much better the Tesla was and he didn't even try to compete.

The last one I checked out was a Macan Turbo, and it was fairly apples to oranges, despite Porsches claims that the Macan is a sports car. Not only did the Macan feel slow, the steering was disappointingly light. The dealership experience was the nicest, as were the quilted leather seats. Neither could make up for the underwhelming performance and handling though.
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      02-15-2019, 12:50 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
I actually like the fact that Model 3P does not have outlandish skirts and bumpers to differentiate itself from the base Model 3. Kind of like the old days of BMW. When a car is designed well to begin with, it doesn't need all that to sell the performance version. All you need to know are the red calipers. Sometimes I feel manufacturers purposely uglify base cars so they can enlarge fake air inlets for a premium.
I agree. I like how the M5's visual enhancements were tastefully done. E46 and E90 M3 followed the same philosophy, while F80 took a different direction by going for a way more visually aggressive look.
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      02-17-2019, 12:10 PM   #69
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Need more objective comparison? Before G80 M3 specs are out, one can only speculate, the closest is using F80 M3 as reference.

F80 M3 vs Model 3 P:
- 0-60 (3.9s vs 3.3s)
- Top Speed (167mph vs 155mph)
- Length (184.6" vs 185")
- Width (73.9" vs 73")
- Height (56.1" vs 56.5")
- Wheelbase (110.7" vs 113.2")
- Front Track (62.2" vs 62.2")
- Rear Track (63.1" vs 62.2")
- Weight (3,630 lbs vs 4,072 lbs)
- Roof (CF Roof vs Glass Roof)
- Software Update (less vs more)
- Torsional Rigidity (40,000 Nm/deg vs 19,000 Nm/deg) Note: this is for Model S, likely similar for Model 3
- Insurance Cost (lower vs higher) Note: in general, could vary depended on individual cases
- Range on full tank or full charge (300+ miles vs 310+ miles)
- Refuel or Recharge (minutes vs hours)
- Front Wheel/Tire (20 x 9.0" 265/30 vs 20 x 8.5" 235/35)
- Rear Wheel/Tire (20 x 10.0" 285/30 vs 20 x 8.5" 235/35)

G80 M3 vs Model 3 P: (Speculation on future improvement)
- 0-60 (sub 3.0s vs sub 3.0s)
- Top Speed (177+mph vs 164+mph) Note: improve by 6% on both
- Length (188.4" vs 185")
- Width (74.5" vs 73")
- Height (56.6" vs 56.5")
- Wheelbase (112.3" vs 113.2")
- Front Track (64.3" vs 62.2")
- Rear Track (64.12" vs 62.2")
- Weight (3,630 lbs vs 4,072 lbs)
- Range on full tank or full charge (330+ miles vs 330+ miles)
- Torsional Rigidity (50,000 Nm/deg vs 23,750 Nm/deg) Note: improve by 25% on both, for cross reference, 50,000 Nm/deg is in the range of Buggati Chiron)
- Front Wheel/Tire (20 x 9.5" 275/30 vs 20 x 8.5" 245/30) Note: Model 3 P may need wider fender
- Rear Wheel/Tire (20 x 10.0" 285/30 vs 20 x 9.5" 265/30) Note: Model 3 P may need wider fender

G80 dimension is derived from G20 based on F30/F80 scale. Refer to this post: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=564

Would be interesting to know Model 3 P's brake system, disc dimension, number of pistons in calipers, etc. With either brake system, I'd go for extra virgin on the brake fluid!

Last edited by Mii; 02-17-2019 at 08:19 PM..
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      02-17-2019, 09:55 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
Need more objective comparison? Before G80 M3 specs are out, one can only speculate, the closest is using F80 M3 as reference.

F80 M3 vs Model 3 P:
- 0-60 (3.9s vs 3.3s)
- Top Speed (167mph vs 155mph)
- Length (184.6" vs 185")
- Width (73.9" vs 73")
- Height (56.1" vs 56.5")
- Wheelbase (110.7" vs 113.2")
- Front Track (62.2" vs 62.2")
- Rear Track (63.1" vs 62.2")
- Weight (3,630 lbs vs 4,072 lbs)
- Roof (CF Roof vs Glass Roof)
- Software Update (less vs more)
- Torsional Rigidity (40,000 Nm/deg vs 19,000 Nm/deg) Note: this is for Model S, likely similar for Model 3
- Insurance Cost (lower vs higher) Note: in general, could vary depended on individual cases
- Range on full tank or full charge (300+ miles vs 310+ miles)
- Refuel or Recharge (minutes vs hours)
- Front Wheel/Tire (20 x 9.0" 265/30 vs 20 x 8.5" 235/35)
- Rear Wheel/Tire (20 x 10.0" 285/30 vs 20 x 8.5" 235/35)

G80 M3 vs Model 3 P: (Speculation on future improvement)
- 0-60 (sub 3.0s vs sub 3.0s)
- Top Speed (177+mph vs 164+mph) Note: improve by 6% on both
- Length (188.4" vs 185")
- Width (74.5" vs 73")
- Height (56.6" vs 56.5")
- Wheelbase (112.3" vs 113.2")
- Front Track (64.3" vs 62.2")
- Rear Track (64.12" vs 62.2")
- Weight (3,630 lbs vs 4,072 lbs)
- Range on full tank or full charge (330+ miles vs 330+ miles)
- Torsional Rigidity (50,000 Nm/deg vs 23,750 Nm/deg) Note: improve by 25% on both, for cross reference, 50,000 Nm/deg is in the range of Buggati Chiron)
- Front Wheel/Tire (20 x 9.5" 275/30 vs 20 x 8.5" 245/30) Note: Model 3 P may need wider fender
- Rear Wheel/Tire (20 x 10.0" 285/30 vs 20 x 9.5" 265/30) Note: Model 3 P may need wider fender

G80 dimension is derived from G20 based on F30/F80 scale. Refer to this post: https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=564

Would be interesting to know Model 3 P's brake system, disc dimension, number of pistons in calipers, etc. With either brake system, I'd go for extra virgin on the brake fluid!
Interesting comparison! couple of points:
1) We should compare interior dimensions too. F80 is tighter on the interior (legroom etc) whereas G20/80 should be closer to the P3. P3 has nearly as much interior room (97 cu ft) as the M5 (98.7 cu ft)

2) Weight for G80 in AWD form should be very close to the P3.

3) Drag coefficient - 0.22 for the 3. Do you have the same for F80?

4) It will be interesting to see if G80 gets sub 3 s 0-60. P3 is nearly there with people getting it ~3.1s.
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      02-17-2019, 11:43 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ras550 View Post
Interesting comparison! couple of points:
1) We should compare interior dimensions too. F80 is tighter on the interior (legroom etc) whereas G20/80 should be closer to the P3. P3 has nearly as much interior room (97 cu ft) as the M5 (98.7 cu ft)
2) Weight for G80 in AWD form should be very close to the P3.
3) Drag coefficient - 0.22 for the 3. Do you have the same for F80?
4) It will be interesting to see if G80 gets sub 3 s 0-60. P3 is nearly there with people getting it ~3.1s.
F80 M3 vs Model 3P:
- Head Room F/R (40.3" / 37.7" vs 39.6" ~ 40.3" / 37.7")
- Leg Room F/R (42.0" / 35.1" vs 42.7" / 35.2")
- Shoulder Room F/R (55.1" / 55.1" vs 56.3" / 54.0")
- Trunk Capacity (15.8 cu ft vs 15 cu ft)
- Drag Coefficient (Cd) (0.34 vs 0.23)

G80 M3 vs Model 3P: (Speculation)
- Head Room F/R (38.7" / 37.6" vs 39.6" ~ 40.3" / 37.7")
- Leg Room F/R (42.0" / 35.2" vs 42.7" / 35.2")
- Shoulder Room F/R (56.0" / 54.6" vs 56.3" / 54.0")
- Trunk Capacity (17 cu ft vs 15 cu ft)
- Drag Coefficient (Cd) (0.23 ~ 0.26 vs 0.22)

G20 3-Series had 0.23 ~ 0.26 (Cd), G30 5-Series had 0.22 (Cd) which is impressive compared to Model 3P 0.23 (Cd). F80 M3 had higher 0.34 (Cd) compared to F30 0.29 (Cd), would not expect G80 M3 to be much lower than G20 unless BMW improves aerodynamics on G80 M3.

F90 M5 AWD had slightly lower weight than F10 M5 RWD. G20 is lighter than F30, would expect G80 M3 weight to be similar to F80 M3 if not lower.
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      02-18-2019, 01:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
F80 M3 vs Model 3P:

F90 M5 AWD had slightly lower weight than F10 M5 RWD. G20 is lighter than F30, would expect G80 M3 weight to be similar to F80 M3 if not lower.
That's because F10 was a real porker all, even the 528i. It was ~300lbs heavier than E60.

F30/80 is already heavily weight optimized. Adding AWD will only make it heavier.

I should also add that a 911 Turbo is 3670 lbs and it is a much smaller car. My guess would be at least 3,850 lbs for an AWD M3.

Last edited by Ras550; 02-18-2019 at 01:45 AM..
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      02-20-2019, 11:52 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ras550 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
F80 M3 vs Model 3P:

F90 M5 AWD had slightly lower weight than F10 M5 RWD. G20 is lighter than F30, would expect G80 M3 weight to be similar to F80 M3 if not lower.
That's because F10 was a real porker all, even the 528i. It was ~300lbs heavier than E60.

F30/80 is already heavily weight optimized. Adding AWD will only make it heavier.

I should also add that a 911 Turbo is 3670 lbs and it is a much smaller car. My guess would be at least 3,850 lbs for an AWD M3.
Right, there is ZERO chance that the G80 will have a sub 3 second 0-60 time. I could maybe see 3.4 / 3.5 (which is still amazing don't get me wrong...)

I was pro ICE for the longest time until I test drove a Model 3 P and now I have one on order... For all those that are knocking the car, I highly suggest testing one out as I think you'll be surprised.
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      02-20-2019, 03:28 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
Is the Model 3 going to be updated anytime soon.
Probably not, they will be busy trying to get to 7k-10k/week.
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      02-20-2019, 10:28 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Model 3 along obliterated the "luxury" market in 2018 especially 2nd half. We've never seen anything like this before.

It'll likely slow down, but I expect it to continue to outsell the competition. The demand is high, but price is high as well.
letís not forget that the model 3 had 3 years of pre-orders and hype. the real measure will be sustained sales a year from now. remember the days when people used to wait overnight in lines to buy new iphones?

the model 3 seems to be a genuinely good car from the reviews iíve seen, but itís a commuter. itís not a road trip car or a winter car. i see porsches and the occasional m3 on my long road trips but never teslas. i dont really consider the teslas to be ďreal carsĒ as they are a niche product and not something generally useful.
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      02-21-2019, 07:23 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harperium View Post
let's not forget that the model 3 had 3 years of pre-orders and hype. the real measure will be sustained sales a year from now. remember the days when people used to wait overnight in lines to buy new iphones?

the model 3 seems to be a genuinely good car from the reviews i've seen, but it's a commuter. it's not a road trip car or a winter car. i see porsches and the occasional m3 on my long road trips but never teslas. i dont really consider the teslas to be "real cars" as they are a niche product and not something generally useful.
I'm not sure that I agree with either of your last two statements. How exactly isn't it a winter car (or at least more of a winter car) when compared to an M3 or Porsche? As for the range, that's purely subjective.
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      02-24-2019, 01:02 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harperium View Post
letís not forget that the model 3 had 3 years of pre-orders and hype. the real measure will be sustained sales a year from now. remember the days when people used to wait overnight in lines to buy new iphones?

the model 3 seems to be a genuinely good car from the reviews iíve seen, but itís a commuter. itís not a road trip car or a winter car. i see porsches and the occasional m3 on my long road trips but never teslas. i dont really consider the teslas to be ďreal carsĒ as they are a niche product and not something generally useful.
Fact check for you - It has 310 miles of range. I took it on a 1500 mile road trip recently and was the best road trip car Iíve had. If you go on Tesla forums you will see there are people who have driven their Sís cross country many times. Some of them do 50k miles in a year and have cars with 250k+ miles. The battery and the motors still work well at very high mileage.

Also remember that model 3 has been destroying others in sales without offering leases in a market where leases outnumber outright sales. You can imagine what happens when they start leasing this year.
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      02-24-2019, 01:27 AM   #78
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Yesterday I drove the Tesla Model 3 Performance for an hour. Let me get one thing clear and that is that this car is not a competition for the M3/M4. If you believe it is then imho you do not belong on these forums. Yes the acceleration was fantastic but thatís about it. The M3/M4 is so much more, itís an icon. When I got into the Model 3 it was a ĎMehí experience, there were some quality issues with the interior of the Model 3. The seats were hard and flat, the wood trim on the dash is ugly, ...

When I got back into my M4 I realised how much I love my car from the sexy line to the amazing full leather Merino in Sakhir Orange interior (including dashboard), the analog gauges, the performance, the sound in the cabin (ASD disabled and valves open btw), ... and the looks I still get when driving around.

No seriously if you truly believe that the Model 3 is competition you have a mental condition and then it makes me question why the heck you are on these forums, is it because Elon is paying uou for the lobbying?
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      02-24-2019, 01:28 AM   #79
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if you price out a m3p vs the F80 m3 as closely as possible, F80 is going to be more expensive hands down after accounting for all the ev credits available. G80 will be no different.

i'm sure some people will still buy the G80 even if it's more expensive and slower in a straight line or 5-60mph than the m3p, performance pedigree, thrill and joy from ICE, consistency at the track, etc. but the problem for BMW is each M3P sold is one too many, it means one less customer for the G80.

and don't forget that the G80 needs to compete with alfa, c63, rs4 too, while you can argue that M3P is pretty much in it's own category since it's offering an inherently different product, meaning if you want a performance BEV? this is it, there is no other choice.

then again, if the G80 will have trouble from M3P taking away sales then i shudder to think what will happen to the lesser competitors, i honestly can't see a good reason for Lexus or Jaguar to even offer a high performance variant for their entry lvl sedan anymore in the next gen.
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      02-24-2019, 01:35 AM   #80
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Like I said those that have chosen the F8x for the brand will choose the G8x. The cars (M3 vs M3P) donít compare at all! I mean I would love to have a BMW 2002 Turbo from the 70ís but do you think I want it because of the comfort of the ride? A BMW and most certainly a M car is so much more and for those that cannot see or feel this I recommend to choose a Tesla or whatever. When buying a car you should also buy it with your heart.

Last edited by G4BR13L; 02-24-2019 at 03:30 AM.. Reason: Typo
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      02-24-2019, 01:48 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G4BR13L View Post
Like I said those that have chosen the F8x for the brand will choose the G8x. The cars donít compare at all! I mean I would move to have a BMW 2002 Turbo from the 70ís but do you think I want it because of the comfort of the ride? A BMW and most certainly a M car is so much more and for those that cannot see or feel this I recommend to choose a Tesla or whatever. When buying a car you should also buy it with your heart.
i'm glad there are people out there who still feels this way, many great ICE cars deserve to be cherished no matter how popular BEV will become.

but i think most people who buy performance sedans won't feel this way at all. to those who don't care about "feel" and just want a flashy fast ride, and believe me there are a LOT of these people out there, all it takes is a short test drive, and a look the window sticker.

Now if BMW decides to make a BEV G80 that beats the M3P in all specs....
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      02-24-2019, 03:12 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G4BR13L View Post
Yesterday I drove the Tesla Model 3 Performance for an hour. Let me get one thing clear and that is that this car is not a competition for the M3/M4. If you believe it is then imho you do not belong on these forums. Yes the acceleration was fantastic but thatís about it. The M3/M4 is so much more, itís an icon. When I got into the Model 3 it was a ĎMehí experience, there were some quality issues with the interior of the Model 3. The seats were hard and flat, the wood trim on the dash is ugly, ...

When I got back into my M4 I realised how much I love my car from the sexy line to the amazing full leather Merino in Sakhir Orange interior (including dashboard), the analog gauges, the performance, the sound in the cabin (ASD disabled and valves open btw), ... and the looks I still get when driving around.

No seriously if you truly believe that the Model 3 is competition you have a mental condition and then it makes me question why the heck you are on these forums, is it because Elon is paying uou for the lobbying?
You sound like someone so in love with their car that they ignore any facts to the contrary. There are plenty of Porsche racers out there who feel that the P3 exceeds their race prepped 911 GT2 RS on a track. You probably think your sakhir orange whatever is better then a 911GT2 RS too.
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      02-24-2019, 03:20 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecaedus View Post
i'm glad there are people out there who still feels this way, many great ICE cars deserve to be cherished no matter how popular BEV will become.

but i think most people who buy performance sedans won't feel this way at all. to those who don't care about "feel" and just want a flashy fast ride, and believe me there are a LOT of these people out there, all it takes is a short test drive, and a look the window sticker.

Now if BMW decides to make a BEV G80 that beats the M3P in all specs....
It's better on feel too!

Anyway I'm all for competition. If BMW makes an M3 that's a better driver's car than the P3, I'll gladly come back to BMW. F80 is not it though, far from it.
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      02-24-2019, 03:38 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ras550 View Post
You sound like someone so in love with their car that they ignore any facts to the contrary. There are plenty of Porsche racers out there who feel that the P3 exceeds their race prepped 911 GT2 RS on a track. You probably think your sakhir orange whatever is better then a 911GT2 RS too.
Same for Porsche, the decision to own a Porsche should be about so much more. Also in the case of a Porsche you make a decision made from the heart. Those who can switch brands in a blink do not deserve the brand and what it stands for. If you want a Tesla go ahead but a true BMW lover will not be converted and if they do it is because they fall in love with what Tesla stands for, and there is nothing wrong with that but if they switch a year later to another brand because it drives a bit sportier I donít understand it. It is like supporting a football team, you donít switch teams just because your team lost a game. I am sure that the M3P is a much better daily driver like in my case I drive about 200 KMís / day and I am stuck in traffic a lot. A M3P would be great in my situation.

It is possible that I end up ordering a M3P but most certainly not to replace my F82. In the weekends I would without doubt choose the M4 over the M3P.
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      02-24-2019, 04:19 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G4BR13L View Post
Same for Porsche, the decision to own a Porsche should be about so much more. Also in the case of a Porsche you make a decision made from the heart. Those who can switch brands in a blink do not deserve the brand and what it stands for. If you want a Tesla go ahead but a true BMW lover will not be converted and if they do it is because they fall in love with what Tesla stands for, and there is nothing wrong with that but if they switch a year later to another brand because it drives a bit sportier I donít understand it. It is like supporting a football team, you donít switch teams just because your team lost a game. I am sure that the M3P is a much better daily driver like in my case I drive about 200 KMís / day and I am stuck in traffic a lot. A M3P would be great in my situation.

It is possible that I end up ordering a M3P but most certainly not to replace my F82. In the weekends I would without doubt choose the M4 over the M3P.
I prefer to be loyal to people in my life than to corporations who make indescribable amounts of money from me.

I've been with BMW for 15 years now (still have a Mini in the family); there's just no sense in being loyal to a point where the brand lets you down and produces subpar vehicles. The brand took a turn for the worse 10 years ago when it decided to chase Mercedes for volume. F10, F30, F80 have been a big step down in driving experience from the prior generation, more hp notwithstanding.

Porsche at least has shown the will to rise to the challenge with the Taycan. Nothing from bmw.
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      02-24-2019, 10:21 PM   #86
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Would love to see next gen Model 3P compete with G80 M3. Tesla Model 3 needs a lot of rework!

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      02-25-2019, 01:49 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
Bro the i3 has been out a long time. Besides the last great BMW was the E30 M3.
Isnít the i3 the ultimate driving machine! Agreed the last great bmws were a long time ago.
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      02-26-2019, 01:22 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
Would love to see next gen Model 3P compete with G80 M3. Tesla Model 3 needs a lot of rework!

yeah i fell victim to that rear quarter window thing a few weeks back. I was surprised tesla sent out a guy to fix it for me while i was at work, saved me a trip to the service center, but still, this design shouldn't be there in the first place

a lot of times i feel like the model 3 is just a beta car, a lot of kinks and small annoyances still need to be worked out, but my justification was having autopilot and instant torque for 43K after all the incentives was just too good for me to pass. I'll definitely jump ship as soon as another BEV arrives with slightly better specs and tech for roughly the same price. guess i'll have to keep waiting for another 5 years.
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