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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) DCT or Traditional AT?

View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 127 59.35%
I prefer a traditional AT. 17 7.94%
Either is fine with me. 21 9.81%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 49 22.90%
Voters: 214. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-12-2019, 10:25 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
It would seem to me that a shift speed measurement should be a measurement of the time between the selection of the gear and the engagement of the gear.

When Audi and other manufacturers are claiming 60ms shift times how are they arriving at that figure?
I really don't know how they measured this, but there's a clear discrepancy between the figure they advertised and my experience when driving the cars (this was admittedly about 10 years ago when I was given an Audi TT loaner car with the DSG gearbox).

One possibility is that the additional lag was needed for rev matching and so there might be some conditions where the lag was minimal - so maybe you can measure the 'golden shift' ;-)

Or perhaps they just quote how long it takes for the mechanical parts of the gearbox to do their job, ignoring the software issues?

Either way, nothing makes you feel more detached from the driving experience than pulling a shift paddle and the car making it clear that it will change gear whenever it feels like it. The M-DCT doesn't have this problem and is the first automatic transmission I ever enjoyed driving.

Edit: The Wikipedia page for the VW/Audi DSG claims 8ms (!) for upshifts and "a consistent 600ms" for downshifts due to rev matching. I don't personally recall any consistency - but perhaps the difference between upshifts and downshifts partly explained my frustrations.

Last edited by pbar; 07-12-2019 at 07:16 PM..
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      07-12-2019, 07:07 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
It would seem to me that a shift speed measurement should be a measurement of the time between the selection of the gear and the engagement of the gear.

When Audi and other manufacturers are claiming 60ms shift times how are they arriving at that figure?
I believe it is from disengagement of one gear and the engagement of the other. So time off-power in other words. Problem is the lag from the time the human pulls the paddle to when this process actually begins.
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      07-13-2019, 07:46 AM   #91
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Yesterday I drove my M4 (DCT) and my friends Alfa Romeo Giulia (ZF 8 Speed) back to back on the same roads in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut. I did not see an issue with the shift speed on the ZF.
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      07-15-2019, 09:15 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Yesterday I drove my M4 (DCT) and my friends Alfa Romeo Giulia (ZF 8 Speed) back to back on the same roads in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut. I did not see an issue with the shift speed on the ZF.
I can't believe you find this lag in-between shift inputs acceptable.

F90 M5 was no better, it hates to revving out to redline on upshifts and hesitates a lot on downshifts even though there is plenty of revs. I had to input multiple times for shifts to happen.

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      07-15-2019, 07:13 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I can't believe you find this lag in-between shift inputs acceptable.

F90 M5 was no better, it hates to revving out to redline on upshifts and hesitates a lot on downshifts even though there is plenty of revs. I had to input multiple times for shifts to happen.

Here's to hoping it has more in common with the M8!

Amazing in-car footage from the Goodwood hill climb. The commentator mentions an "8 speed steptronic" but the steering wheel/paddles don't look cheap and nasty (CF), and the upshifts at least sound good. Hard to tell how responsive it is on downshifts (can't see the driver's left hand), but this video makes me feel a bit better better. (helped by the outrageously loud exhaust setup!)


Last edited by pbar; 07-15-2019 at 07:34 PM..
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      07-15-2019, 07:17 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Yesterday I drove my M4 (DCT) and my friends Alfa Romeo Giulia (ZF 8 Speed) back to back on the same roads in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut. I did not see an issue with the shift speed on the ZF.
No way... I think you just love Alfa cause in my X5M it's so noticeable but it's also a Suv / av so I don't make a big deal because it's great for what it is but DCT is on a whole other level compared to ZF.

Can't believe we're having this convo... here I am thinking bimmer was going to come with a revised DCT setup something that could give PDK/DSG a run for its money but instead I'm worrying if I'll have the same damn trans i currently own in an M3..🤦🏽
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      07-15-2019, 07:30 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F85MTuNED View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Yesterday I drove my M4 (DCT) and my friends Alfa Romeo Giulia (ZF 8 Speed) back to back on the same roads in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut. I did not see an issue with the shift speed on the ZF.
No way... I think you just love Alfa cause in my X5M it's so noticeable but it's also a Suv / av so I don't make a big deal because it's great for what it is but DCT is on a whole other level compared to ZF.

Can't believe we're having this convo... here I am thinking bimmer was going to come with a revised DCT setup something that could give PDK/DSG a run for its money but instead I'm worrying if I'll have the same damn trans i currently own in an M3..🤦🏽
Agree, mine X6M was not as fast but mine F90 M5 was a little more aggressive.
Still not where it should be.

To me Porsche is the king with PDK

But for fun and engagement mine heart belongs to MT
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      07-17-2019, 12:33 PM   #96
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DCT or ZF 8HP are basically the same thing in practice. I'm not sure why people who prefer automatics care that much that it's a ZF 8HP and not a DCT anymore. You get better low speed driving manners, still imperceptibly fast shift times, a better ratio spread, and you don't have to operate a clutch. Why do you care so much how it works? The ZF 8HP locks up the torque converter after a start so you don't have the "slush box" effect of older/cheaper automatics. You pretty much never have to worry about clutch wear. What to you, is the defining characteristic of a DCT that makes it so much better than the ZF 8HP?

A manual is just completely different while the ZF 8HP and DCT are millimeters apart to the driver. Losing the manual is a big deal. Moving from one auto to another auto is not.
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      07-17-2019, 02:53 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Mercedes puts a dual clutch transmission in their small FWD cars. Makes it even more disappointing with the ZF direction BMW are heading with their M cars. I think G80 has the potential to be fantastic with the right gearbox.

Audi also uses a DCT in the RS3. But guess what, they use a ZF 8HP for all their longitudinal cars. They only use the DCT because they have to. THere are no transverse planetary automatics that perform well enough to use in a performance car. I guarantee you that Merc or Audi would use torque converted automatics in their front drive cars if they could fit them.
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      07-17-2019, 02:54 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
DCT or ZF 8HP are basically the same thing in practice. I'm not sure why people who prefer automatics care that much that it's a ZF 8HP and not a DCT anymore. You get better low speed driving manners, still imperceptibly fast shift times, a better ratio spread, and you don't have to operate a clutch. Why do you care so much how it works? The ZF 8HP locks up the torque converter after a start so you don't have the "slush box" effect of older/cheaper automatics. You pretty much never have to worry about clutch wear. What to you, is the defining characteristic of a DCT that makes it so much better than the ZF 8HP?

A manual is just completely different while the ZF 8HP and DCT are millimeters apart to the driver. Losing the manual is a big deal. Moving from one auto to another auto is not.
Amen. I literally do not understand and find it very funny for those that say the DCT is better than a ZF or any other transmission. The shifts on the Quad vs the DCT in my opinion feel a little quicker and more responsive, but in the end it's the same more or less. They're automatics plain and simple.
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      07-17-2019, 03:16 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I can't believe you find this lag in-between shift inputs acceptable.

F90 M5 was no better, it hates to revving out to redline on upshifts and hesitates a lot on downshifts even though there is plenty of revs. I had to input multiple times for shifts to happen.
Is that on Sport+ mode with the transmission in Manual mode? Even my wife's 2017 X5 (M sport but otherwise just a regular mom mobile) upshifts/downshifts very quickly and responds with very little lag on the paddles. There should be no issues with going to redline. If it is not following your commands, you're probably being way too aggressive with shift requests. You might even be hitting or getting too close to fuel cut-off and not realizing it.

Look at this M5 video. Completely different from the video you showed. I think that person just doesn't know how to drive the car.


Last edited by upsidedownfunnel; 07-17-2019 at 03:23 PM..
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      07-17-2019, 04:42 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Is that on Sport+ mode with the transmission in Manual mode? Even my wife's 2017 X5 (M sport but otherwise just a regular mom mobile) upshifts/downshifts very quickly and responds with very little lag on the paddles. There should be no issues with going to redline. If it is not following your commands, you're probably being way too aggressive with shift requests. You might even be hitting or getting too close to fuel cut-off and not realizing it.

Look at this M5 video. Completely different from the video you showed. I think that person just doesn't know how to drive the car.
Appreciate the video, but even after watching several times I couldn't make out whether the paddles were being used. Lag from requesting a downshift until the gear change happens is the #1 issue I have had with every non-DCT BMW I've test driven (even the 'M-performance' variants)

I will test drive the M5 in a week or two and will certainly make sure to set up all of the appropriate shift modes. Perhaps this why various folks have reported it to be sluggish? (I *really* hope so)
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      07-17-2019, 10:49 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Is that on Sport+ mode with the transmission in Manual mode? Even my wife's 2017 X5 (M sport but otherwise just a regular mom mobile) upshifts/downshifts very quickly and responds with very little lag on the paddles. There should be no issues with going to redline. If it is not following your commands, you're probably being way too aggressive with shift requests. You might even be hitting or getting too close to fuel cut-off and not realizing it.

Look at this M5 video. Completely different from the video you showed. I think that person just doesn't know how to drive the car.
That's me. You can see from the odometer I've set on sport + and manual shift first gear (M1), and sport traction.

If you short shift well before the redline(~6000 rpm) upshift responds ok but not great. Downshifts were slow no matter what I tried, especially if I try to shift the same way I do with my M3, dropping lower gear right near the redline.

Compare that with this.
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      07-18-2019, 09:17 AM   #102
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The difference is enough that I don't think I would buy a zf8 vehicle in the future. Just got a loaner with a zf8 and I don't like the way it feels when it shifts, it has this odd feeling I'm not sure how to describe that makes the car feel like it sort of lurches in a strange way. The down shifts were slow. It doesn't really feel mechanical. I don't like it. The DCT feels crisp. I know you're rolling you eyes, but keep in mind the general public rolls their eyes when someone complains the MT is less available now and will be gone some day.
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      07-24-2019, 08:06 AM   #103
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Rev seems to run out faster on G80 vs. F8x. High revving what?

I would hate this short of gear ratio on track.

At 1:01


At 0:33 and at 1:43
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      07-24-2019, 08:17 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
The difference is enough that I don't think I would buy a zf8 vehicle in the future. Just got a loaner with a zf8 and I don't like the way it feels when it shifts, it has this odd feeling I'm not sure how to describe that makes the car feel like it sort of lurches in a strange way. The down shifts were slow. It doesn't really feel mechanical. I don't like it. The DCT feels crisp. I know you're rolling you eyes, but keep in mind the general public rolls their eyes when someone complains the MT is less available now and will be gone some day.
Yep. 8 speed ZFs are terrible. Remind me of every ordinary autobox ever made. I'm not a huge fan of DCT either BUT they're not terrible—-there is a certain satisfaction to their mechanics and level of detail.

Don't give a crap about "shift speed". Care more about how things feel. ZF feels like garbage. DCT is a good compromise. Manual is the real deal.
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      07-24-2019, 09:10 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Yep. 8 speed ZFs are terrible. Remind me of every ordinary autobox ever made. I'm not a huge fan of DCT either BUT they're not terribleŚ-there is a certain satisfaction to their mechanics and level of detail.

Don't give a crap about "shift speed". Care more about how things feel. ZF feels like garbage. DCT is a good compromise. Manual is the real deal.
Potential buyers have to be more vocal about this. Some F8x owners still think that the next one will come with DCT by default.
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      07-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #106
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      07-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #107
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Honestly, with the options being Auto or 6MT, I think they're going to see more manual sales than the F80 did. Still an auto, still a torque converter. Less crisp than a DCT and therefore may push more people over towards a 3 pedal set up.
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      07-24-2019, 01:06 PM   #108
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So the G80 will comes with an Auto Tranny with a torque converter? Not DCT??
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      07-24-2019, 03:27 PM   #109
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I know this is being rediculous: but I want a DCT or even SMG IV (that never breaks and has a modern computer and a dogbox).

I'm an M5 guy anyway so bmw feel free to ignore me.

I realize BMW M wants these things but that BMW proper will not allow any way.
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      07-24-2019, 03:34 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
Honestly, with the options being Auto or 6MT, I think they're going to see more manual sales than the F80 did. Still an auto, still a torque converter. Less crisp than a DCT and therefore may push more people over towards a 3 pedal set up.
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.
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