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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) DCT or Traditional AT?

View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 127 59.07%
I prefer a traditional AT. 17 7.91%
Either is fine with me. 22 10.23%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 49 22.79%
Voters: 215. You may not vote on this poll

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      07-28-2019, 08:27 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
The biggest complaint is not about speed but shift feel.

It is nowhere as engaging as the DCT on manual mode. Best performance when left in auto which goes against avid drivers.
Agree with the shift feel comment. I love the ZF auto in my F90. The ONLY think I like better about DCT, which I had in my e92 and F80 M3 is the more violent and aggressive shifts. Other than that, ZF all day long over DCT.
So you like the more violent and aggressive shifts = I LIKE DCT better then the ZF

Your words dude
You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said the "only" thing about DCT I like better than the ZF.

:
Comprehension is just fine. We are talking about transmissions here correct?? I'll simplify for you. A Transmissions main function is to change gears. Yes? You said and I'll paraphrase "I like the violent and the aggressive shifts of the DCT better" Sooo you like DCT better

It's cool man. It is better :
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      07-28-2019, 09:11 AM   #134
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I just want the thing to come with DCT but it looks like that won't be happening so I might have to really pull the trigger on a CS.
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      07-28-2019, 12:46 PM   #135
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It's hard to make everyone happy.

Bmw trying to help hardcore MT that wants more engagement ( which is what started the M ) or any other sports car.

It would be nice to keep DCT too ( which is a higher demand ) but ZF is taking over and also makes financially more sense.

Driving the F90 M5 I have to say it's really good transmission probably top 3 but it's not perfect.

I am sure it will get more aggressive as time goes by. I have seen the difference already by owning E70 X5M, F86 X6M, F90 M5
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      07-29-2019, 05:03 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Talking about "Shift speed", rather than responsiveness is part of the problem. People who have never driven a DCT in 'manual' mode aren't even aware how annoying it is to have lag between a paddle input and a gear change.

An M-DCT box is marketed as an "automated manual" - i consider it a fly-by-wire version of a manual transmission where I don't need to use levers and pushrods to make something happen, and the mechanical parts move a lot faster. I don't need to take my hand off the steering wheel and waggle one foot around in the air to feel driver engagement.

BUT... driver engagement depends crucially on the fact that my input timings matter. When I want to downshift, it has to happen now.

So, can we please try to get away from the 6MT "purists" saying "if I don't use a stick then all auto transmissions are the same" and "the ZF changes gear really fast and smooth". That's basically irrelevant to me.

I am prepared to hope that M-division includes some test drivers who feel the same way I do. Perhaps they will tweak the ZFat to be more responsive to inputs than all existing incarnations. If not, I'll be looking elsewhere.
Porsche uses DCT not because it's auto, but because it's the best performer with immediate response to user inputs for BOTH upshifts and downshifts.

ZFat can barely rev over 7,000 rpm due to oil cavitation at high rpm and refuses to downshift near redline which translates to shitty paddle response. BMW doesn't use it because it's the fastest transmission, they use it because it's the cheapest all rounder. They could have used AWD R&D revenue instead on refining low speed driveability of DCT(close to that of PDK), but they didn't. There is nothing mechanically distinguishing from Audi.

AMG nowadays adopts DCT into their purest cars, fast to respond to user inputs and they are about ten steps above in terms of luxury so I rate them unequivocally higher quality than BMW M.

Just go to ZF's homepage and read their descriptions on DCT and 8 speed steptronic. Their DCT is labeled "sporty transmission" while ZFat is "comfortable and efficient".
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      07-29-2019, 09:43 AM   #137
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In the end it's Auto vs MT. Anything else, SMG/DCT will just be a blip in automotive history. Seems only electrification will kill the MT and ultimately everything else I truly feel the fun will be over soon.
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      07-29-2019, 07:12 PM   #138
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Audi keeps DCT for the R8. Says enough.
And the TTRS/RS3
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      07-29-2019, 07:15 PM   #139
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The Audi S Tronic on the TTRS I just swapped for the M4CS proves one thing - you can have a DCT that's silky smooth during sedate driving and perfect while thrashing it.

It's DCT or Manual transmission for me.

The M5 on track felt down right ordinary compared to the M4CS I drove back to back during the M5 launch. I love the DCT on my M

It's no surprise that Supercars use a DCT almost exclusively.
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      07-30-2019, 02:25 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by drgmt View Post
The Audi S Tronic on the TTRS I just swapped for the M4CS proves one thing - you can have a DCT that's silky smooth during sedate driving and perfect while thrashing it.

It's DCT or Manual transmission for me.

The M5 on track felt down right ordinary compared to the M4CS I drove back to back during the M5 launch. I love the DCT on my M

It's no surprise that Supercars use a DCT almost exclusively.
I'm with you there. It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion though, most people say 6MT only and that DCT/ZF8 are the same. I strongly disagree and am happy with 6MT or DCT but not the ZF8
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      08-17-2019, 07:37 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I am prepared to hope that M-division includes some test drivers who feel the same way I do. Perhaps they will tweak the ZFat to be more responsive to inputs than all existing incarnations. If not, I'll be looking elsewhere.
I just got home after test-driving an X3M Competition and an M2 Competition at the M Town Tour. (the M5 Comp was broken)

I can say with confidence that I will not be buying a new M3 if it drives anything like the X3M. The transmission was *awful*.

I had the car in the the most aggressive shift mode, sport plus throttle, suspension and steering. I didn't bother the the 'Auto' mode - just tried to drive it using the paddles the same way I drive my M4.
However, it just wouldn't change gears when I wanted it to. In addition, there was essentially no audio feedback when I shifted, so I kept having to look for the number on the cluttered digital dash to see 'did it change yet'? 'What gear am I in?' There was much less engine braking than the F82 for the same gear (and it's an 8 speed so I would have expected shorter ratios). Oh, and this may seem a trivial thing, but to me the paddle shifters themselves feel like big clunky lumps of plastic (like you're not really supposed to be using them)

Add to that the fact that the steering feel was non-existent and the turbo lag was really noticeable. It just wasn't close to being a driver's car and I have no idea how they could put an 'M' badge on this thing.

In contrast, the M2 Competition was a bunch of fun. Felt light and nimble... changed gear when I wanted it to. But somehow a little less responsive on the throttle than my M4 Comp (perhaps because I'm running wider PS4S tires and tend to drive with MDM to reduce traction control intervention? - they insisted I left DSC on in the M2)

I could probably be tempted to buy an M2 Comp if only it had a head-up-display.

But the most fun I had all day was the drive home in my own car, enjoying the DCT throttle blips and exhaust burbles in the corners and in the tunnels.

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      08-18-2019, 04:59 PM   #142
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It looks like the M2 CS is the last DCT M car. I would think the G80 M3 will drive just like the X3M and M5 with the ZF8.
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      08-20-2019, 04:19 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I'm with you there. It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion though, most people say 6MT only and that DCT/ZF8 are the same. I strongly disagree and am happy with 6MT or DCT but not the ZF8
I am not sure which numbers you are looking at.

The two most popular choices so far are: "I prefer DCT" and "I don't care. No manual, no purchase."

I am pretty sure it means that your preference matches how most people here voted.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I just got home after test-driving an X3M Competition and an M2 Competition at the M Town Tour. (the M5 Comp was broken)

I can say with confidence that I will not be buying a new M3 if it drives anything like the X3M. The transmission was *awful*.

I had the car in the the most aggressive shift mode, sport plus throttle, suspension and steering. I didn't bother the the 'Auto' mode - just tried to drive it using the paddles the same way I drive my M4.
However, it just wouldn't change gears when I wanted it to. In addition, there was essentially no audio feedback when I shifted, so I kept having to look for the number on the cluttered digital dash to see 'did it change yet'? 'What gear am I in?' There was much less engine braking than the F82 for the same gear (and it's an 8 speed so I would have expected shorter ratios). Oh, and this may seem a trivial thing, but to me the paddle shifters themselves feel like big clunky lumps of plastic (like you're not really supposed to be using them)

Add to that the fact that the steering feel was non-existent and the turbo lag was really noticeable. It just wasn't close to being a driver's car and I have no idea how they could put an 'M' badge on this thing.

In contrast, the M2 Competition was a bunch of fun. Felt light and nimble... changed gear when I wanted it to. But somehow a little less responsive on the throttle than my M4 Comp (perhaps because I'm running wider PS4S tires and tend to drive with MDM to reduce traction control intervention? - they insisted I left DSC on in the M2)

I could probably be tempted to buy an M2 Comp if only it had a head-up-display.

But the most fun I had all day was the drive home in my own car, enjoying the DCT throttle blips and exhaust burbles in the corners and in the tunnels.
While I haven't test-driven the X3M, I wouldn't be surprised a bit if I agreed with you 100% after a proper test drive, just based on my recent experience with many of the late model M/M-performance cars.

However, I am surprised that you were surprised to find these compromised M characteristics. After all, it didn't just happen overnight. You didn't see it coming a mile away?

I do have a simple solution for the gearbox and paddler shifter issues though: good ol' manual. You're welcome.

As for the turbo lag and steering feel issue... I'd better shut up before i am told (yet again) that I am one of the few remaining crazies who want BMW financially ruined for wanting a proper M car.
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      08-20-2019, 01:25 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I just got home after test-driving an X3M Competition and an M2 Competition at the M Town Tour. (the M5 Comp was broken)

I can say with confidence that I will not be buying a new M3 if it drives anything like the X3M. The transmission was *awful*.

I had the car in the the most aggressive shift mode, sport plus throttle, suspension and steering. I didn't bother the the 'Auto' mode - just tried to drive it using the paddles the same way I drive my M4.
However, it just wouldn't change gears when I wanted it to. In addition, there was essentially no audio feedback when I shifted, so I kept having to look for the number on the cluttered digital dash to see 'did it change yet'? 'What gear am I in?' There was much less engine braking than the F82 for the same gear (and it's an 8 speed so I would have expected shorter ratios). Oh, and this may seem a trivial thing, but to me the paddle shifters themselves feel like big clunky lumps of plastic (like you're not really supposed to be using them)

Add to that the fact that the steering feel was non-existent and the turbo lag was really noticeable. It just wasn't close to being a driver's car and I have no idea how they could put an 'M' badge on this thing.

In contrast, the M2 Competition was a bunch of fun. Felt light and nimble... changed gear when I wanted it to. But somehow a little less responsive on the throttle than my M4 Comp (perhaps because I'm running wider PS4S tires and tend to drive with MDM to reduce traction control intervention? - they insisted I left DSC on in the M2)

I could probably be tempted to buy an M2 Comp if only it had a head-up-display.

But the most fun I had all day was the drive home in my own car, enjoying the DCT throttle blips and exhaust burbles in the corners and in the tunnels.
You have to give that feedback to the guys promoting the M tour.
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      08-20-2019, 10:15 PM   #145
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You have to give that feedback to the guys promoting the M tour.
[A bit off topic]

I did try...

What sort of surprised my was the fact that most of the 'BMW staff' at the M Town Tour event I attended didn't seem to care at all what you thought about the car. The few who asked "How was that?" were expecting glowing responses and didn't know how to respond when I replied "Honestly, I wasn't very impressed by the X3M at all and hope the M3 doesn't drive like that".

They didn't seem to know much about the technical details. They didn't want to try and sell me anything. They didn't want customer feedback.
Their main concern seemed to be the liability waiver paperwork and keeping track of who was next in each car.

Turns out many of them are contractors from an events company, dressed in all the BMW M clothing and accessories, but generally a bit bored by the whole thing.

I would love for BMW to hear my voice, as somebody now on their 8th M car, but to be honest this forum is probably the best option I have. That's why I take every opportunity to have a therapeutic rant
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      08-25-2019, 07:43 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by M3GymNut View Post
I don't understand how people say ZF is a downgrade from DCT. If that were the case why would BMW do that? On the M3 platform no less. An auto is an auto no matter how you slice it. I'm pretty sure BMW can make the ZF just as quick and responsive as the DCT.

Because $$$$

99.98% of miles that M3/4s are driven it doest matter if it has a DCT vs a regular auto. The DCTs cost more, are heavier (worse for emissions in that regard), break more often, and from what I've heard less comfortable day to day.

It's an easy place for BMW to save money.
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      08-28-2019, 02:33 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Imola3 View Post
Because $$$$

99.98% of miles that M3/4s are driven it doest matter if it has a DCT vs a regular auto. The DCTs cost more, are heavier (worse for emissions in that regard), break more often, and from what I've heard less comfortable day to day.

It's an easy place for BMW to save money.
Based on the street logic, it would make more sense to get a Mercedes C63 if I wanted a slush auto RWD; it would ride better and have better interior. Funny enough, the AMG 9-speed's manual shifts are much crispier and quicker than any iteration of ZF8 on the market. I don't care about tranny for AWD models because I will never buy AWD M3 so they can put whatever slush box they want.

But if BMW thinks it could get away with ZF8 because most customers don't have sufficient technical knowledge to understand the difference, they are gravely mistaken. Anyone who's used a paddle shifter will immediately feel the much slower response and numb engagement of ZF vs. DCT.

BMW M's core strengths were that it felt like a supercar/racecar at times at less than a third of the price, and these cars are not just about the speed. There are plenty cars faster than F40 but people don't necessarily rate them higher than the Ferrari. It's the exotic experience that separates the great from the good.

Plain speed is boring.
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      10-19-2019, 02:12 PM   #148
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I dont think the new M4 will have a ZF8 based on the new nurburgring testing footage. There is no farts on the upshifts like the m5/x3m. Should be interesting to see what will be on the car.



It sounds more like the DCT from the F80 than anything else
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      10-19-2019, 09:38 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Lt1camaro View Post
I dont think the new M4 will have a ZF8 based on the new nurburgring testing footage. There is no farts on the upshifts like the m5/x3m. Should be interesting to see what will be on the car.



It sounds more like the DCT from the F80 than anything else
Sadly, they are using ZF8. ZF8 has quick upshifts in AT mode but slow response in manual mode. Nowadays these "M" engineers like to have everything in auto.

DCT has longer gear ratio like at 1:06 and revs to 7600 rpm:


Whereas ZF8 revs less than 7300 rpm and is closer with gear ratio.
Check 0:05.
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      10-20-2019, 01:03 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Based on the street logic, it would make more sense to get a Mercedes C63 if I wanted a slush auto RWD; it would ride better and have better interior. Funny enough, the AMG 9-speed's manual shifts are much crispier and quicker than any iteration of ZF8 on the market. I don't care about tranny for AWD models because I will never buy AWD M3 so they can put whatever slush box they want.

But if BMW thinks it could get away with ZF8 because most customers don't have sufficient technical knowledge to understand the difference, they are gravely mistaken. Anyone who's used a paddle shifter will immediately feel the much slower response and numb engagement of ZF vs. DCT.

BMW M's core strengths were that it felt like a supercar/racecar at times at less than a third of the price, and these cars are not just about the speed. There are plenty cars faster than F40 but people don't necessarily rate them higher than the Ferrari. It's the exotic experience that separates the great from the good.

Plain speed is boring.
I test-drove a 2019 AMG C63S recently. The improved "multi-clutch" 9-speed (MY2019 onwards) was actually not too bad to drive. Paddle response for downshifts was much better than I expected, and a *lot* better than the new X3M. Also, the paddles themselves were made of metal not plastic and felt like they were there to be used.

My biggest problem with the C63S was that the red-line was quite low and with a 9-speed transmission the ratios were very short. You *really* had to be on the ball to drive it well in manual mode. I kept hitting the rev limiter which I found very harsh and intrusive.

Another thing that made a huge difference was being able to hear the engine revs clearly (with the exhaust in sport mode). Makes it much easier to time downshifts, know exactly when a shift happens, and to keep track of gears. Not to mention, very satisfying as a driver. In contrast, the X3M Comp I drove was very muffled, and forced me to look at the dashboard all the time to check gears and revs.
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      10-21-2019, 07:22 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I test-drove a 2019 AMG C63S recently. The improved "multi-clutch" 9-speed (MY2019 onwards) was actually not too bad to drive. Paddle response for downshifts was much better than I expected, and a *lot* better than the new X3M. Also, the paddles themselves were made of metal not plastic and felt like they were there to be used.

My biggest problem with the C63S was that the red-line was quite low and with a 9-speed transmission the ratios were very short. You *really* had to be on the ball to drive it well in manual mode. I kept hitting the rev limiter which I found very harsh and intrusive.

Another thing that made a huge difference was being able to hear the engine revs clearly (with the exhaust in sport mode). Makes it much easier to time downshifts, know exactly when a shift happens, and to keep track of gears. Not to mention, very satisfying as a driver. In contrast, the X3M Comp I drove was very muffled, and forced me to look at the dashboard all the time to check gears and revs.
The problem with the recent auto is that it doesn't really let you bounce off the rev limiter like in the early days, which is like alcohol; you know it is bad for the health of an engine but you can't stop doing it.

AMG uses nano-sliding technology to reduce the internal friction to unprecedented levels for all their AMG engines. I'm sure the close gear ratios got you, but the engine isn't too shabby revving to 7,000 rpm; it just gets there much faster than their competition.
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      10-25-2019, 09:37 AM   #152
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I've driven the current gen C63S on the street and on the track. And not one of those 'track experiences' crap, actual track use
It didn't use the 9 speed, it was the 7 speed.

It was a steaming pile of shit.

I've been reading about how AMG is improving its transmissions for like a decade. I am not going to swallow that all of a sudden they've taken a complete piece of shit and it's now 'good'. Impossible.

The ZF is a shame, however, the M5c I drove felt light years faster than the AMG C63 transmission.

In the end the proof is in the pudding. I'll drive the G8X on track and if I like it I'll buy one, if not I'll just keep the CS and be happy.

As a person I am a lot more interested in the implementation than the theory. In theory a E9X M3 and a F8X CS should get crushed by 991 GT3 and 991 GT3 RS at the track, but in reality it is the opposite. So if BMW is capable of making a 3600lb 4 door car crush the latest and greatest GT3s... I will also trust they can make the ZF function correctly

Meanwhile I'm not going to lose sleep about it. I already lost sleep with the whole EPS and turbo story of the F8X but at the end of the day the CS is a great car and feels wonderful on track
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      10-25-2019, 11:10 PM   #153
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In theory a E9X M3 and a F8X CS should get crushed by 991 GT3 and 991 GT3 RS at the track, but in reality it is the opposite.
+1 - off topic, and I have almost no hard core track experience (certainly not yours), but I do have a ton of road course experience, almost weekly for 12 years in whichever new gen BMW M 3/4. In that time I've ran with a LOT of cars, almost everything, and I've seen the exact same thing you have.

Tons of paper racers want to believe X car is OMGWAY faster than your pos M3. When you get real people behind the wheel (Not Tiff or Chris or whatever) and you run ... things look a LOT different. Like an M5 vs an M3 for example.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      10-28-2019, 08:17 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
+1 - off topic, and I have almost no hard core track experience (certainly not yours), but I do have a ton of road course experience, almost weekly for 12 years in whichever new gen BMW M 3/4. In that time I've ran with a LOT of cars, almost everything, and I've seen the exact same thing you have.

Tons of paper racers want to believe X car is OMGWAY faster than your pos M3. When you get real people behind the wheel (Not Tiff or Chris or whatever) and you run ... things look a LOT different. Like an M5 vs an M3 for example.
For sure some people, usually the ones who don't go to the track at all, are pretty obsessed with Excel charts while comparing cars.

They also suffer what I call MyDaddy-itis. You know like when kids are 10 and during recess they speak about all the great feats their daddies can do. "My Daddy can lift a 50lb rock!!". 'My Daddy is 6ft 3!!" and whatever.

People who still show this behavior as adults switch the 'Daddy' for the pro driver of choice and make equally asinine statements, like "A pro drive is X seconds faster in YY car than ZZ car around the ring, so Joe Six Pack should also be faster in car YY than ZZ"

They seem to forget that no one on this board is a pro driver. The question is not whether a pro driver is faster in one car or another, but how fast a regular human can be. M cars are communicative and very well balanced, so they end up being really fast whereas some sPecial dedicated sport cars are impossible to be driven by a regular person...

... but then I guess that's why they are paper racers... no clue about what actually goes down in track days all across the world every weekend... too busy staring at power to weight graphs in good old Excel and reminiscing about what professional drivers are capable of doing!
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