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      07-18-2019, 12:39 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
This realy sucks big time!!!
Why can't BMW say what decisions are made ( hard to believe they will decide last minute before production) so people can decide to wait or move on!!!
Production will not start for over a year, so final details may not yet be known.

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Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
The point is, they already told us about MT and CP and AWD and months later comes down to not sure for MT
Did they? No product announcements have been made. Most of what we know is based on spy shots and inside information.

While it is true that various BMW M officials have made statements about what direction they desire future products to take, they have been purposely vague, and words have generally been chosen carefully so as not to commit to anything.

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Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
I want MT to take it on track every weekend if possible.
Why are you so hell bent on buying a four door sedan to use as a track car, BTW? There are numerous lighter, more purpose built track vehicles with manual transmissions that you could buy today.
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      07-18-2019, 12:43 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Why are you so hell bent on buying a four door sedan to use as a track car, BTW? There are numerous lighter, more purpose built track vehicles with manual transmissions that you could buy today.
Certainly there are tons of BMW sedans that have been raced around the world to date.

So only coupes can be track cars?
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      07-18-2019, 12:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Why are you so hell bent on buying a four door sedan to use as a track car, BTW? There are numerous lighter, more purpose built track vehicles with manual transmissions that you could buy today.
Because i like the way it looks plus it's convenient for the kids

Yes I am strongly considering this beauty
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      07-18-2019, 12:56 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
I doo agree.
I sold mine F90 M5 because I want MT to take it on track every weekend if possible.

But yes the cars are just blowing in size and weight.
I guess people could plane better if they have just a little more info.
Like MT is coming for sure but not known if is with CP model or AWD and do on

Like friend of mine put deposit on Tesla roadster because Musk reviled most critical specs that makes people wait and not jump to competition
Interesting counterpoint ! Indeed , Tesla pre-markets their products .... but that is out of need in my opinion. They need cash to make the products. They have the ideas and not the capital. They sell the ideas and then deliver the product much later.

BMW on the other hand , TEASES the Product. They tell you lies, they wait for reaction. info Leaks like a sieve as they try to slowly respond to market forces. They often state they are responding to the market when instead they are actually dictating to the market and then responding.

Did the market demand an X7 prior to this year ? An X3M ? Yes. But BMW decided to not make these items and then finally responded.


And more recently .. in their push to sell more SAV and SUV, they have planned to eliminate all RWD vehicles, in favor of more profitable ( read : cheaper to manufacture ) FWD and AWD vehicles.

Speaking of TESLA.... I see that the Model 3 performance is starting to take top spots at autocross lots in America. Who would have ever thought to race a sedan ? CRAZY TALK RIGHT ? :
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      07-18-2019, 01:25 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Certainly there are tons of BMW sedans that have been raced around the world to date.

So only couples can be track cars?
You mean actual race cars? In the overwhelming majority of cases, race cars (at least those based upon a production car) have two doors. If you are thinking of a series like WTCC, I believe there are (or at least traditionally were) rules that dictate sedan or hatchback form factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Because i like the way it looks plus it's convenient for the kids
Sure, it looks great (well, the F80 does anyway, and I think the G80 will too), but there are many good looking cars with manual transmissions available today that would be perfect for the track.

You said a few days ago that you were buying an X6 M for the kids, right?

Quote:
Yes I am strongly considering this beauty
You should buy that car.

The mere fact that you are cross-shopping a GT4 and M3 suggests you wold benefit from a more careful analysis of what you are really trying to achieve.

If you created a poll and asked whether you should buy a 718 GT4 so you can go to the track later this year, or wait over a year for an M3 that might not have the manual transmission you want, the results will be overwhelming in favor of the Porsche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Speaking of TESLA.... I see that the Model 3 performance is starting to take top spots at autocross lots in America. Who would have ever thought to race a sedan ? CRAZY TALK RIGHT ? :
Except that there is no Model 3 coupe available, and in fact there is no affordable EV coupe available at all. So it's not a similar situation at all.

Let's not get too carried away and lose sight of the point. If someone handed you the keys to a 718 GT4 and M3 and told you had to choose one for the track, we know which it would be.
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      07-18-2019, 01:35 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You should buy that car.

The mere fact that you are cross-shopping a GT4 and M3 suggests you wold benefit from a more careful analysis of what you are really trying to achieve.

If you created a poll and asked whether you should buy that Porsche 718 GT4 so you can go to the track later this year, or wait a year for an M3 that might not have the manual transmission you want, the results will be overwhelming in favor of the Porsche.

Consider how many race cars began as street cars. Leave off the letter M.. Many E30 , E36, E46 , E90 , heck I've seen E28 race cars ... many of those cars turned into a race car by the original owner , that bought the car for an original purpose of street driving and the car then became a track car.

Some people choose a purpose built track car that's turn key like a Cayman GT4.. but many people take a car they own, and modify it and continue doing so and make it a track car, whether it be an hpde queen or full on dedicated race car.
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      07-18-2019, 01:37 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Not at all. No BMW SUV has a DCT. In fact, as far as I know, the only SUV on the market with a longitudinal engine and a DCT transmission is the Porsche Macan.

Furthermore, if you read the other threads in this forum, you'll see that prevailing belief is that all future BMW M vehicles will have the ZF8 automatic.
I guess I assumed the F85 X5M had the DCT because it has the DCT gear selector.
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      07-18-2019, 01:46 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Consider how many race cars began as street cars. Leave off the letter M.. Many E30 , E36, E46 , E90 , heck I've seen E28 race cars ... many of those cars turned into a race car by the original owner , that bought the car for an original purpose of street driving and the car then became a track car.
Sure, I agree, but that has nothing to do with this specific situation.

What I see is someone expending a significant amount of energy fretting about the specs of a car that isn't really going to suit his needs the best even if it does get produced. I figured I'd try to help him from making what might not be the right choice. I've been around here long enough to recognize the situation - its played out many times before, unfortunately.
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      07-18-2019, 01:56 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Let's not get too carried away and lose sight of the point. If someone handed you the keys to a 718 GT4 and M3 and told you had to choose one for the track, we know which it would be.
I declined the offer to drive a 981 Cayman GT4 ... while at a track weekend at Texas World Speedway - when it was made , in favor of keeping my 1M.

The Cayman is absolutely the purer track car , but I wasn't in the market for a 6 figure sports car. I'm not in the market for a used Porsche because i can't afford that either .. so .. I won't be " that guy " on here saying "sorry I'm leaving BMW and buying a Porsche ".

And interestingly , I've had some friends " go Porsche " that came back to the 1M.

So.. I'm just gonna sit here and hope that BMW can figure its way towards proving a car or three for enthusiasts that prefer a car with a wheelbase shorter than a 5 series.
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      07-18-2019, 02:03 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I declined the offer when it was made , in favor of keeping my 1M. And interestingly , I've had some friends " go Porsche " that came back to the 1M
The 1M is a great choice for a weekend track car, and if that were the car he was waiting for, I would not have asked him about this choice to begin with. But this is about an M3. And not just any M3 - one that is over a year away. And not just any M3 that is over a year away, but one whose specs may not include a manual transmission.

So, like I say, it's really a totally different situation.
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      07-18-2019, 04:37 PM   #77
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Every new bit of information I'm receiving is making it seem less likely we'll see manual M3/M4. I just went and staked the "no manual" position in my thread. It's better to expect the worst and then be pleasantly surprised than have your dreams crushed.
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      07-18-2019, 05:25 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I declined the offer to drive a 981 Cayman GT4 ... while at a track weekend at Texas World Speedway - when it was made , in favor of keeping my 1M.

The Cayman is absolutely the purer track car , but I wasn't in the market for a 6 figure sports car. I'm not in the market for a used Porsche because i can't afford that either .. so .. I won't be " that guy " on here saying "sorry I'm leaving BMW and buying a Porsche ".

And interestingly , I've had some friends " go Porsche " that came back to the 1M.

So.. I'm just gonna sit here and hope that BMW can figure its way towards proving a car or three for enthusiasts that prefer a car with a wheelbase shorter than a 5 series.
I track a lot and have driven the GT4 on track. I prefer the M3. Besides more convenience and doing things like taking tires in the rear seats, the M3 is significantly more forgiving and easier to drive fast.

It's been years since the GT4 was announced and I'm still waiting to find a fast one at the track... any day now...

The GT4 may be very 'pure' but it is not very fast. I presume a pro driver like Randy would be much faster in a GT4 but we aren't pro drivers.
If a car is so hard to drive that the fastest run group at PCA still doesn't have a single fast GT4, what's the point?
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      07-18-2019, 05:26 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post

Why are you so hell bent on buying a four door sedan to use as a track car, BTW? There are numerous lighter, more purpose built track vehicles with manual transmissions that you could buy today.
Personally I got the M3 CS over the M4 CS because it's much easier to put tires in the rear in a 4 door car.
I have two dedicated track cars, an E90 and the F80 CS. This is a big deal if you don't trailer your car

For the track I only want DCT (i guess auto now)... I swear half the breakdowns in AER races are manual transmission related.


I look forward to the G80. It may be ZF auto and it may be AWD, both things I dislike, but the S58 engine looks like a winner! BMW won't disappoint... as much as I dislike EPS and turbo cars, the F80 is excellent.

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      07-18-2019, 06:26 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Personally I got the M3 CS over the M4 CS because it's much easier to put tires in the rear in a 4 door car.
I have two dedicated track cars, an E90 and the F80 CS. This is a big deal if you don't trailer your car.
Very fair point.

But, the guy I was responding to did not appear to have that concern. He had previously mentioned considering a GT3 as well, but decided on getting both an X6 M and M3. I maintain that he does not appear to have thought things through very carefully. To be hanging on waiting a year for maybe the chance at going to the track rather than just getting a car now (I don’t think he has one) does not seem like a good plan.
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      07-18-2019, 06:57 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Very fair point.

But, the guy I was responding to did not appear to have that concern. He had previously mentioned considering a GT3 as well, but decided on getting both an X6 M and M3. I maintain that he does not appear to have thought things through very carefully. To be hanging on waiting a year for maybe the chance at going to the track rather than just getting a car now (I don’t think he has one) does not seem like a good plan.
Agreed, that's a good point
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      07-18-2019, 07:39 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Sure, it looks great (well, the F80 does anyway, and I think the G80 will too), but there are many good looking cars with manual transmissions available today that would be perfect for the track.

You said a few days ago that you were buying an X6 M for the kids, right?
Yes, I had previous model and I loved it.
Great for family and specially here in winter.
I build a house on hill and gets a lot snow drifts.

M3 won't be driven in winter time.

Quote:
You should buy that car.

The mere fact that you are cross-shopping a GT4 and M3 suggests you wold benefit from a more careful analysis of what you are really trying to achieve.

If you created a poll and asked whether you should buy a 718 GT4 so you can go to the track later this year, or wait over a year for an M3 that might not have the manual transmission you want, the results will be overwhelming in favor of the Porsche.
I can't put 2 kids and friends in GT4 and all the stuff if I need to for practice.
I want to enjoy M3 most seasons and track days. X6M will be vacation days and winter.
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      07-19-2019, 12:06 AM   #83
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Not sure if it has been mentioned but why does the dyno curve show peak HP flat over a series of RPMs but the rating lists peak at one rpm? Especially as they show the S55 with a similar flat peak HP curve while the rating also reflects that.
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      07-19-2019, 01:28 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko M View Post
Apple products and cars are so different because off cost.

I am spending about 150k a year on M cars.

The point is, they already told us about MT and CP and AWD and months later comes down to not sure for MT

If they planned to do MT they needed to start that development last year and spend big bucks for testing and development. Which means they could say MT is coming out for sure.
FWIW, they don't need that much development for an MT. Hell, they could use one they've already developed, but just tweak the final drive or something. When they built the 1M, for example, they used readily available parts.
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      07-19-2019, 03:54 PM   #85
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FWIW, they don't need that much development for an MT. Hell, they could use one they've already developed, but just tweak the final drive or something. When they built the 1M, for example, they used readily available parts.
Although I think the G8X will have a 6MT available, here are a couple issues with your thought process:

-As this will produce more torque they may not have a tranny appropriately rated
-Even if they do, a 6MT puts much more strain on the drivetrain than a DCT/Auto (per engineers) so then it has to be validated to be able to take those stressed
-A 6MT requires a whole separate homologation in every country where it will be sold which is expensive as hell
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      07-19-2019, 04:04 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Although I think the G8X will have a 6MT available, here are a couple issues with your thought process:

-As this will produce more torque they may not have a tranny appropriately rated
-Even if they do, a 6MT puts much more strain on the drivetrain than a DCT/Auto (per engineers) so then it has to be validated to be able to take those stressed
-A 6MT requires a whole separate homologation in every country where it will be sold which is expensive as hell
I understand your logic, but the reason why I stated it the way that I did is because our current transmissions in the F8X can easily handle more power/torque (...safely to the 500 horsepower mark). The 6MT version of the G8X is only supposed to be rated at 444 HP, so from an integrity standpoint, the transmission should hold up.
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      07-19-2019, 04:11 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I understand your logic, but the reason why I stated it the way that I did is because our current transmissions in the F8X can easily handle more power/torque (...safely to the 500 horsepower mark). The 6MT version of the G8X is only supposed to be rated at 444 HP, so from an integrity standpoint, the transmission should hold up.
I think it'll happen, but topics 2 and 3 still apply. That may be their holdup

If they make the 6MT they have a completely captive market. Their on paper competitors like the C63, RS5 and Alfa Quad don't have 6MT so the hardcore manual lovers will always buy the M3
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      07-19-2019, 04:14 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I think it'll happen, but topics 2 and 3 still apply. That may be their holdup

If they make the 6MT they have a completely captive market. Their on paper competitors like the C63, RS5 and Alfa Quad don't have 6MT so the hardcore manual lovers will always buy the M3
That is true, which is why they needn't ditch it. It's keeping a certain segment of customers from going elsewhere.
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