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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) I'm not interested in AWD

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      07-26-2019, 05:18 PM   #23
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      07-26-2019, 05:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falafel Combo View Post
My 6MT f80 with snow tires was fantastic in the snow so I could care less about AWD.
Yes. All wheel drive helps one get started. After that it does nothing beyond two wheel drive. It doesn't help brake or turn.

The big benefit is from snow tires. Snow tires on a RWD car will perform way better than all season tires on an all wheel drive car.
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      07-26-2019, 06:46 PM   #25
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More fair comparison is RWD on winter tire vs AWD on winter tire...? If you do more street parking I can definitely see some crap situation where you wakes up next morning and wish you had AWD
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      07-26-2019, 08:00 PM   #26
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AWD is actually the best drivetrain for driving enthusiasts. It grips, goes, and puts you in a thrilling situation that much more quickly.

Don't get me wrong I had to get the whole RWD drift thing out of my system. But now that I'm older and wiser it's clear AWD is the sickest thing going.
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      07-27-2019, 08:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
Yes. All wheel drive helps one get started. After that it does nothing beyond two wheel drive. It doesn't help brake or turn.

The big benefit is from snow tires. Snow tires on a RWD car will perform way better than all season tires on an all wheel drive car.
Not sure I agree. I own both a RWD Z4M and an AWD 911 Carrera 4S and its clear the Z4M at times has problems putting all the power down while tracking perfectly straight even with an M diff LSD. This is with Michelin PS4's all around. Would it be more stable with wider tires? Maybe. But I have a feeling dividing the power between the front and rear axle would help.

And of course snow tires help. Snow tires on an AWD car are going to perform better than snow tires on a RWD car. Since that is an option I believe that point is moot
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      07-27-2019, 08:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
AWD is actually the best drivetrain for driving enthusiasts. It grips, goes, and puts you in a thrilling situation that much more quickly.
Thrilling situation? Guess it depends on your definition of thrilling

I think the key point in the AWD vs RWD debate is the implementation of AWD actually matters and no two systems are specifically equal. Not to mention how the car is designed to handle in terms of weight distribution and suspension setup. For example I often hear people cite that the Quattro system on less expensive Audi's tend to be much more front wheel drive biased and as a result the car has more tendency to understeer than say a RWD BMW. That is bad. Systems like those Audi's and Subaru WRX STI's for example can only send 60% of the total power to the rear wheels, no more. This presents challenges when steering or steering and braking because we all know its not good to ask the front wheels to do too many things at once.

However the AWD system in my Carrera 4S is clearly RWD biased. If I trust the computer display in most cases its 90% of the power to the rear and goes to a 50/50 split only in cases of extreme low traction and grip (presumably snow and ice on the road because not even rain caused the AWD to kick in) or under WOT acceleration. This means its basically RWD most of the time and AWD only when you really need it to be! Of course this comes at the cost of complexity and weight but its worth it. There are several videos online that show the Carrera 4S with AWD can still drift or wag the tail (I certainly did at the track last weekend!!). The steering becomes heavier I hear but I like it; its BMW hydraulic like even with an EPS rack! Point is other than massive grip at all times while driving I can't tell in any way if the AWD has taken away from RWD's driving dynamics in this case.

Its also clear from what I've seen and read that BMW put a lot of effort into ensuring their AWD in the M5 works well and does not take away fm the car's driving dynamics.

Check this video out and tell me a good implementation of AWD doesn't have benefits over RWD while still remaining fun! I don't see the 2S RWD Porsche as being fun to drive or own in this situation personally. Would just be giving me unnecessary heart palpations and forcing too much unnecessary driver focus beyond the point of enjoyment.

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      07-27-2019, 09:15 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1 View Post
Not sure I agree. I own both a RWD Z4M and an AWD 911 Carrera 4S and its clear the Z4M at times has problems putting all the power down while tracking perfectly straight even with an M diff LSD. This is with Michelin PS4's all around. Would it be more stable with wider tires? Maybe. But I have a feeling dividing the power between the front and rear axle would help.

And of course snow tires help. Snow tires on an AWD car are going to perform better than snow tires on a RWD car. Since that is an option I believe that point is moot
AWD does not belong on an M3!
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      07-27-2019, 09:24 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
AWD is actually the best drivetrain for driving enthusiasts. It grips, goes, and puts you in a thrilling situation that much more quickly.

Don't get me wrong I had to get the whole RWD drift thing out of my system. But now that I'm older and wiser it's clear AWD is the sickest thing going.
Drift? No. It's the fastest formula for front engine, rear wheel driven cars. Add AWD and you are looking at 10km/h+ less average velocity from 100kg weight penalty. Remember why race cars are made of magnesium&carbon fiber parts.



And with AWD you will never get the surreal sensation of walking on a thread between grip and slip. Turn-in is always relatively shit on every AWD configurations of RWD cars because of weight.
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      07-27-2019, 09:28 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011zx10R View Post
AWD does not belong on an M3!
And turbochargers do?? I think the train has already left the station.
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      07-27-2019, 09:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1 View Post
And turbochargers do?? I think the train has already left the station.
Pilot Sport 4 tires (NOT PS4S) are hardly the ultimate radial tires; it is on the eco side of performance summer tires with tremendously hard compound(330 treadwear rating). I have them on my E36 M3(euro) with -3.0 front camber but they skid badly if I drive them hard on mountain roads. Also understeery.

Try RE71R or A052, they are both rated 200 and are the softest compounds of radial tires with linear performance. You will not be disappointed.
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      07-27-2019, 09:39 AM   #33
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Seriously, the only advantage of AWD is for drag race from stop to start. After the car has started to move, the friction constants between tires and the concrete are what keeps four wheels stick to the ground.

Answer to trouble putting power down? Get grippy radial tires!
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      07-27-2019, 03:02 PM   #34
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The feel of free-spinning front tires is very different from that of front tires that is clawing for traction. Some prefer the purity and predictable feel of a passive front end, myself including. That to me is more important than outright performance.

That said, the G82 will be for my wife who loves AWD since she did not grow up in the far north as myself and never learnt to drive high performance rwd cars in snow etc. and she love the secure feel of AWD on slippery surfaces. So I’m all for AWD on the G8X
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      07-27-2019, 03:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Seriously, the only advantage of AWD is for drag race from stop to start. After the car has started to move, the friction constants between tires and the concrete are what keeps four wheels stick to the ground.

Answer to trouble putting power down? Get grippy radial tires!
Very true, look no further than top fuel and F1 to realize that RWD can go very fast. Tires are the main key. No doubt AWD is very helpful for performance in slippery conditions though.
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      07-29-2019, 08:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nis270r View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falafel Combo View Post
My 6MT f80 with snow tires was fantastic in the snow so I could care less about AWD.
I dont get either what's the fuss about AWD on a M car, ALL M cars should be made with RWD only, current M5 already broke that tradition. I get it's a very advance system and let you do all kinds of crazy things with 600 hp. But dont you want a M car because it's the characteristics of a RWD car which we like about. Go get RS4/5/7 or an STI if thats what you're into. Stop with the 4WD M car bs please, theres always the 340i Xdrive
Thé problem with bmw going AWD is if probably jsut get the Audi since it's got a better AWD DCT and nicer interior
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      07-29-2019, 09:23 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Thé problem with bmw going AWD is if probably jsut get the Audi since it's got a better AWD DCT and nicer interior
No, Audi doesn't have better AWD, since BMW's engine placement, balance is superior and BMW's AWD is way more rear biased.
Also, BMW's ZF 8 AT very good, better than the DCT that I had in my M4.
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      07-29-2019, 02:04 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Thé problem with bmw going AWD is if probably jsut get the Audi since it's got a better AWD DCT and nicer interior
Audi only has DCT in their transverse engine cars and no one wants those. Audi moved to ZF 8HP transmissions for all their RS cars before BMW did for their M cars.

Also, Audi's AWD system isn't all that great. It's not symmetrical in front like Subaru's system so it naturally will have some torque steer. It also relies on clutch packs to divide up power front/rear. Though, the center diff is better than BMW's xDrive transfer case, it's not a huge difference.

Last edited by upsidedownfunnel; 07-29-2019 at 02:13 PM..
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      07-30-2019, 08:17 AM   #39
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In the A4/5/6/7/8 and the Q5 the AWD system is symmetrical (but the front/rear power distribution is not) so there's no torque steer. In the A3, TT and Q3/7 the AWD is not symmetrical since the A3, TT, and Q3 use a transverse engine layout and the Q7 uses a Borg Warner AWD system with an offset front differential. I don't know about the Q8.

I've had a few Audis and their AWD system is great. They're all really nose heavy though because the nature of the symmetrical AWD system pushes the engine really far forward as the front differential is integrated directly into the transmission.

Last edited by JohnEnglish; 07-31-2019 at 07:54 AM..
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      07-30-2019, 08:53 AM   #40
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RWD (with snow tires) + Snow = FUN (although an LSD helps a ton)
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      07-31-2019, 01:26 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Yep, I watched 4runners go into the center barrier and trailers unable to make it over the pass with chains on but my M3 with Michelin Alpins did fantastic.
And I have put winter tires on my AWD vehicles and run circles around RWD vehicles with winter tires on them. No doubt that winter tires on a RWD vehicle are the way to go though.
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      08-04-2019, 07:11 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Explaining that RWD cars with winter tires are perfectly solid options for winter driving and indeed superior to the all season tires most AWD cars/trucks have is like trying to explain quantum physics to a toddler.

No matter how many times TireRack and car mags clearly prove what is evident people still don't believe it.
Make it an even more entertaining discussion and go right to the core reason: glass transition temperature of the rubber compound.
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      08-04-2019, 08:01 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Thé problem with bmw going AWD is if probably jsut get the Audi since it's got a better AWD DCT and nicer interior
Bingo!

Why buy the BMW?
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      08-04-2019, 01:57 PM   #44
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Bingo!

Why buy the BMW?
The RS5 is a bit of a porker, for one. It no longer has the DSG either.
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