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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) I'm not interested in AWD

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      08-04-2019, 10:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Yep, I watched 4runners go into the center barrier and trailers unable to make it over the pass with chains on but my M3 with Michelin Alpins did fantastic.
love my alpin PA4s, great tires. i'm not getting up any steep hills in snow and clearance is still a thing for the deeper stuff but they served me well--preserving a lot of the sporty responsiveness in the wet and dry.
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      08-05-2019, 11:18 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Falafel Combo View Post
My 6MT f80 with snow tires was fantastic in the snow so I could care less about AWD.
My E92 M3 with winter tires is barely adequate and wife has even been stuck in snow. Car also drives worse on winter rubber due to RWD squirming on softer tread, and I'm talking Michelin PA4.

My M3 feels crippled in winter and as my daily, it's getting replaced with M340i xDrive until AWD G80 hits the used market (well, depends on that new front end design too). All my cars get dedicated winter rubber and with AWD the winter is so much more enjoyable.
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      08-05-2019, 11:27 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Thé problem with bmw going AWD is if probably jsut get the Audi since it's got a better AWD DCT and nicer interior
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Bingo!

Why buy the BMW?
* The RS5 weighs 2 tons
* The Audi is a more of cruiser than performance car
* Front grill is too big
* All Audi's are alike in looks and drive
* Audi/VW reliability is a concern

So in conclusion, why not get the Audi? Well... because it's an Audi.

Last edited by Tacoma; 08-05-2019 at 01:25 PM..
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      08-05-2019, 02:07 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Drift? No. It's the fastest formula for front engine, rear wheel driven cars. Add AWD and you are looking at 10km/h+ less average velocity from 100kg weight penalty. Remember why race cars are made of magnesium&carbon fiber parts.



And with AWD you will never get the surreal sensation of walking on a thread between grip and slip. Turn-in is always relatively shit on every AWD configurations of RWD cars because of weight.
Your point may apply if you're buying the car only for racing in which case there are better, lighter, cars available for that. But if you're in the snow belt and you daily drive your car more times than race it, then your points fall flat.

Also, it's ironic you're raising the weight issue and then your video example is that of an E92 M3 which is a 3700 lb porker. The AWD G8x is going to be 200 lbs lighter than the E92 and (like the current M5) you can switch to 100% RWD with the push of a button. I just don't see the issue here. Flasch is reporting both a pure RWD model and an AWD model that you can toggle to 100% RWD.
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      08-05-2019, 02:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Your point may apply if you're buying the car only for racing in which case there are better, lighter, cars available for that. But if you're in the snow belt and you daily drive your car more times than race it, then your points fall flat.

Also, it's ironic you're raising the weight issue and then your video example is that of an E92 M3 which is a 3700 lb porker. The AWD G8x is going to be 200 lbs lighter than the E92 and (like the current M5) you can switch to 100% RWD with the push of a button. I just don't see the issue here. Flasch is reporting both a pure RWD model and an AWD model that you can toggle to 100% RWD.
Weight is the biggest issue on E92, albeit the car still handles nice due to a relatively lower CoG than straight 6 variants. That particular car had fair amount of weight reduction from titanium exhaust to carbon fiber bucket seats.

F82 M4 was indeed marginally lighter (In reality 30-50kg) than E92, and the then M boss Albert Biermann said the car is exclusively RWD because AWD and lightweight do not go together.
F90 M5 is just 15kg lighter than F10 with 15L less fuel tank capacity which means the car would have been 90kg lighter with RWD, putting into E60 M5 territory.
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      08-05-2019, 03:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Seriously, the only advantage of AWD is for drag race from stop to start. After the car has started to move, the friction constants between tires and the concrete are what keeps four wheels stick to the ground.

Answer to trouble putting power down? Get grippy radial tires!
We're mixing up conversations. There's tires (winter vs. all seasons) and then there's transmission (AWD vs. RWD). Independent of powertrain, having the right tires for the right conditions is important for proper tire traction or grip.

Also, it's not so black and white about "stop to start" as you claim. It's about the getting and maintaining traction. If you've ever tried to go uphill on an icy surface, you know what I'm talking about. You lose momentum as you go uphill which you try to counteract by gassing it, but in a RWD (and traction control off because it doesn't work on a hill) you start to fishtail and lose grip and so you let off the gas and you're soon screwed stuck on a friggin hill while drivers with AWD wave at you while they drive by.

The physics is clear. All else being equal, you get better overall traction with AWD both from stop-to-start and in motion. Throwing in tire type just muddies the water.
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      08-06-2019, 11:12 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
We're mixing up conversations. There's tires (winter vs. all seasons) and then there's transmission (AWD vs. RWD). Independent of powertrain, having the right tires for the right conditions is important for proper tire traction or grip.

Also, it's not so black and white about "stop to start" as you claim. It's about the getting and maintaining traction. If you've ever tried to go uphill on an icy surface, you know what I'm talking about. You lose momentum as you go uphill which you try to counteract by gassing it, but in a RWD (and traction control off because it doesn't work on a hill) you start to fishtail and lose grip and so you let off the gas and you're soon screwed stuck on a friggin hill while drivers with AWD wave at you while they drive by.

The physics is clear. All else being equal, you get better overall traction with AWD both from stop-to-start and in motion. Throwing in tire type just muddies the water.
Not really. I'm saying with grippy tires, AWD benefit is negligible in dry conditions so you are just carrying 100kg of unnecessary weight in the front-mid part of the car which translates to worse fuel economy and dynamics.

I can see the benefit of AWD if you are driving in snow for several months a year. Given, I occasionally go to touge(tight mountain roads) with 40 degrees incline on winter tires and I don't have trouble climbing up. It does however get hilarious when the road is icy
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      08-06-2019, 11:44 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
We're mixing up conversations. There's tires (winter vs. all seasons) and then there's transmission (AWD vs. RWD). Independent of powertrain, having the right tires for the right conditions is important for proper tire traction or grip.

Also, it's not so black and white about "stop to start" as you claim. It's about the getting and maintaining traction. If you've ever tried to go uphill on an icy surface, you know what I'm talking about. You lose momentum as you go uphill which you try to counteract by gassing it, but in a RWD (and traction control off because it doesn't work on a hill) you start to fishtail and lose grip and so you let off the gas and you're soon screwed stuck on a friggin hill while drivers with AWD wave at you while they drive by.

The physics is clear. All else being equal, you get better overall traction with AWD both from stop-to-start and in motion. Throwing in tire type just muddies the water.
Not really. I'm saying with grippy tires, AWD benefit is negligible in dry conditions so you are just carrying 100kg of unnecessary weight in the front-mid part of the car which translates to worse fuel economy and dynamics.

I can see the benefit of AWD if you are driving in snow for several months a year. Given, I occasionally go to touge(tight mountain roads) with 40 degrees incline on winter tires and I don't have trouble climbing up. It does however get hilarious when the road is icy
Actually the concept that awd does not provide benefit on the track/dry is not accurate. It definitely was accurate in the past but a sophisticated performance setup like Mxdrive has the ability to electronically move power front to back and side to side using the differentials to ensure the wheels where power will be most effective are being sent power, there are numerous situations where having portions of power sent to front wheels in dry is advantageous (off the line, corner exit, etc), the weight is a small penalty to pay. Ultimately the awd M3 will likely be the better performer for maximum lap times.

However, in a similar driving engagement change as moving from manual to auto transmission, the feel of an awd performance car is not the same as rwd. (Many would say not as fun and that's a totally valid opinion, albeit a personal choice based on how they want their performance car to feel) The driver will not be as engaged with balancing grip and holding adhesion on the rear tires as the Mxdrive car's electronics will be doing much of that work by shifting power forward.

Much like choosing the manual version, rwd is a personal choice based on fun and style of driver engagement, but dismissing the awd system as just a winter benefit to support rwd as a superior choice is short sighted.

Real world street driving... I think feel should be the most important factor in choice anyway. The point of buying these cars is fun so choose the version of fun you want most!
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      08-06-2019, 12:28 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Actually the concept that awd does not provide benefit on the track/dry is not accurate. It definitely was accurate in the past but a sophisticated performance setup like Mxdrive has the ability to electronically move power front to back and side to side using the differentials to ensure the wheels where power will be most effective are being sent power, there are numerous situations where having portions of power sent to front wheels in dry is advantageous (off the line, corner exit, etc), the weight is a small penalty to pay. Ultimately the awd M3 will likely be the better performer for maximum lap times.

However, in a similar driving engagement change as moving from manual to auto transmission, the feel of an awd performance car is not the same as rwd. (Many would say not as fun and that's a totally valid opinion, albeit a personal choice based on how they want their performance car to feel) The driver will not be as engaged with balancing grip and holding adhesion on the rear tires as the Mxdrive car's electronics will be doing much of that work by shifting power forward.

Much like choosing the manual version, rwd is a personal choice based on fun and style of driver engagement, but dismissing the awd system as just a winter benefit to support rwd as a superior choice is short sighted.

Real world street driving... I think feel should be the most important factor in choice anyway. The point of buying these cars is fun so choose the version of fun you want most!
Like I said for street tires with limited grip that is the case.

At a dry track with high grip tires, AWD offers no advantage in grip with innately worse transition going from one corner to another due to weight vs. RWD version of the car, assuming everything else remains the same (suspension, wheels, chassis, engine).

I cannot believe people are asking for AWD in an M3 that was born for motorsport. Has anyone seen a fast, if any, AWD track car in any tarmac competition series? Where's the purity?
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      08-06-2019, 01:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Like I said for street tires with limited grip that is the case.

At a dry track with high grip tires, AWD offers no advantage in grip with innately worse transition going from one corner to another due to weight vs. RWD version of the car, assuming everything else remains the same (suspension, wheels, chassis, engine).

I cannot believe people are asking for AWD in an M3 that was born for motorsport. Has anyone seen a fast, if any, AWD track car in any tarmac competition series? Where's the purity?
95% of these cars will never see anything remotely resembling a track. People want a daily driver with a marque that will impress people.
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      08-07-2019, 04:06 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Bingo!

Why buy the BMW?
Are you kidding? Drive an Audi S then drive a BMW M-performance xDrive model. Surely will be same result with RS vs M xDrive.
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      08-08-2019, 08:18 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Like I said for street tires with limited grip that is the case.

At a dry track with high grip tires, AWD offers no advantage in grip with innately worse transition going from one corner to another due to weight vs. RWD version of the car, assuming everything else remains the same (suspension, wheels, chassis, engine).

I cannot believe people are asking for AWD in an M3 that was born for motorsport. Has anyone seen a fast, if any, AWD track car in any tarmac competition series? Where's the purity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEnglish View Post
95% of these cars will never see anything remotely resembling a track. People want a daily driver with a marque that will impress people.
Exactly right. I love all these "track guys" who assume everyone who buys an M car takes it to the track every weekend. The "purists" are a very small percentage of M owners.
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      08-08-2019, 10:02 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Drift? No. It's the fastest formula for front engine, rear wheel driven cars. Add AWD and you are looking at 10km/h+ less average velocity from 100kg weight penalty. Remember why race cars are made of magnesium&carbon fiber parts.



And with AWD you will never get the surreal sensation of walking on a thread between grip and slip. Turn-in is always relatively shit on every AWD configurations of RWD cars because of weight.
Your point may apply if you're buying the car only for racing in which case there are better, lighter, cars available for that. But if you're in the snow belt and you daily drive your car more times than race it, then your points fall flat.

Also, it's ironic you're raising the weight issue and then your video example is that of an E92 M3 which is a 3700 lb porker. The AWD G8x is going to be 200 lbs lighter than the E92 and (like the current M5) you can switch to 100% RWD with the push of a button. I just don't see the issue here. Flasch is reporting both a pure RWD model and an AWD model that you can toggle to 100% RWD.
The M3 *chassis* is 200 lbs lighter by the time you add in standard equipment though it's about 150 lbs heavier. I expect the M3 base model to weigh in at 3850 or so. Pathetic when you realize the 5 series is only 200 lbs away
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      08-08-2019, 01:48 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by TheRealOrosie View Post
Exactly right. I love all these "track guys" who assume everyone who buys an M car takes it to the track every weekend. The "purists" are a very small percentage of M owners.
I don't think we are on the same page.

In my opinion, when a rational person buys an M car he/she buys it to exploit the limits of its performance, experience its motorsport root and ultimately become a better driver with more vehicle control. Since there is no place safe enough on the public road, track is the most fitting place to do so it is safe to say track driving is integral to proper M experience.

On the other hand, if you buy one but don't exploit the vehicle's performance you likely buy it for the sake of showing off on stop lights. For these people AWD is optimal because you don't need much skill to drive one fast.
(I don't include active B-road drivers who love proper driving because they typically realize that there is no way to feel the extreme lateral G on public roads so they eventually make their way to a circuit.)

Does it then have to be BMW? No, these are the people who will go to AMG or Audi if they offer better subjective performance at a cheaper price, and BMW already has a perfect car for these cross-shoppers: M340i.

I hope they don't build M cars to feed immature egos. M should build a car that teaches the driver to respect the vehicle dynamics, like they always have.
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      08-09-2019, 08:36 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I don't think we are on the same page.

In my opinion, when a rational person buys an M car he/she buys it to exploit the limits of its performance, experience its motorsport root and ultimately become a better driver with more vehicle control. Since there is no place safe enough on the public road, track is the most fitting place to do so it is safe to say track driving is integral to proper M experience.

On the other hand, if you buy one but don't exploit the vehicle's performance you likely buy it for the sake of showing off on stop lights. For these people AWD is optimal because you don't need much skill to drive one fast.
(I don't include active B-road drivers who love proper driving because they typically realize that there is no way to feel the extreme lateral G on public roads so they eventually make their way to a circuit.)

Does it then have to be BMW? No, these are the people who will go to AMG or Audi if they offer better subjective performance at a cheaper price, and BMW already has a perfect car for these cross-shoppers: M340i.

I hope they don't build M cars to feed immature egos. M should build a car that teaches the driver to respect the vehicle dynamics, like they always have.
Assuming you're actually being serious, the vast majority of people buy M cars because they're the most expensive version of the BMW model they're looking at. Same thing with AMG and RS cars. It's exactly why BMW started with the M Performance label and Mercedes with the "AMG-lite" cars. People want the label but can't afford it.

Building cars to satisfy the egos of "purists" is a sure fire way for BMW to go bankrupt. The "purist" market may be very vocal online but their actual purchasing power is tiny.
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      08-09-2019, 08:59 AM   #60
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My M3 on Nokians exceeded my expectations. Compared to AWD, slower getting started but great on brakes and turns.

That being said in the dry, back on summer Michelin's, even with 295 tears, the car has terrible traction. Just like there are poor implementations of AWD, the F80 in my opinion had a poor implementation of integrating the power delivery, tire, suspension, etc together for aggressive launches. No complaints once going. Love how it handles.

A rear biased AWD system could be the best of both worlds, especially with horsepower getting to insane levels (M5 dyno'ing over 600 hp?).
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      08-09-2019, 11:59 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JohnEnglish View Post
Assuming you're actually being serious, the vast majority of people buy M cars because they're the most expensive version of the BMW model they're looking at. Same thing with AMG and RS cars. It's exactly why BMW started with the M Performance label and Mercedes with the "AMG-lite" cars. People want the label but can't afford it.

Building cars to satisfy the egos of "purists" is a sure fire way for BMW to go bankrupt. The "purist" market may be very vocal online but their actual purchasing power is tiny.
In no way I'm implying my thought coincides with majority.

I'm saying while keeping the "majority" happy M should also exploit something that is ingenious and evolutionary, something the current and potential M drivers did not expect in terms of driving experience in the respect that it integrates driver and a car equally into the equation, not just the car i.e. not easy to drive fast without learning how to properly drive.

For me there are two uncompromisable components in a car: engine and drivetrain. If the car is MT it should be a very engaging transmission, and if it is automatic it has to respond to manual user inputs consistently fast: DCT achieves this but the torque converter doesn't.

Thus it would be best if M would offer:
1. RWD DCT
2. RWD MT
3. AWD 8AT

Such combinations would give satisfaction to buyers of all groups because while AWD is fast off the line, RWD+DCT will have better dynamics in extreme conditions, and RWD+MT could boast lightest weight and engagement.

It's no question M would make the most $$$ off AWD variant because it would be the most expensive model and relatively cheap to develop and produce compared to a well balanced RWD&DCT or MT, but it is the least they can do to show the motorsport spirit.

M hasn't been the same since senior figures like Biermann or Gobmeier left (who participated in factory race car developments since E30 M3). They are insisting on a new era, but perhaps it is time for the youngsters to review why the older models were perceived as the greats.
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      08-09-2019, 07:25 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEnglish View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I don't think we are on the same page.

In my opinion, when a rational person buys an M car he/she buys it to exploit the limits of its performance, experience its motorsport root and ultimately become a better driver with more vehicle control. Since there is no place safe enough on the public road, track is the most fitting place to do so it is safe to say track driving is integral to proper M experience.

On the other hand, if you buy one but don't exploit the vehicle's performance you likely buy it for the sake of showing off on stop lights. For these people AWD is optimal because you don't need much skill to drive one fast.
(I don't include active B-road drivers who love proper driving because they typically realize that there is no way to feel the extreme lateral G on public roads so they eventually make their way to a circuit.)

Does it then have to be BMW? No, these are the people who will go to AMG or Audi if they offer better subjective performance at a cheaper price, and BMW already has a perfect car for these cross-shoppers: M340i.

I hope they don't build M cars to feed immature egos. M should build a car that teaches the driver to respect the vehicle dynamics, like they always have.
Assuming you're actually being serious, the vast majority of people buy M cars because they're the most expensive version of the BMW model they're looking at. Same thing with AMG and RS cars. It's exactly why BMW started with the M Performance label and Mercedes with the "AMG-lite" cars. People want the label but can't afford it.

Building cars to satisfy the egos of "purists" is a sure fire way for BMW to go bankrupt. The "purist" market may be very vocal online but their actual purchasing power is tiny.
...and the "lite" cars should be the compromise cars, NOT the full fledged ///M cars.
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