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      08-02-2019, 03:31 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by SportySpice View Post
All of this "there was a time" and "BMW used to be" is boring. They're a mass market car, well vehicle, company in business to make a profit - not a niche brand. How many cars does Porsche sell in a year? Fine, point to them as a halo brand but the comparisons don't really seem to be apples to apples IMO. What's the Porsche version of a 3 series? An Audi.

Companies must evolve to stay relevant and the market has changed. Like it or not, Tesla has put pressure on the luxury car manufacturers. Vehicle sales in the US are down this year, even in the red hot SUV and pickup market. The Transportation sector is perhaps the largest producer of greenhouse gases in the US, and for more and more, particularly younger people, a car is a luxury not a necessity.

BMW could choose to become a niche player, building a limited set of heavy steering, manual cars with stiff suspensions that appeal to enthusiasts (only). Or they can try to figure out the right mix of models to remain a volume manufacturer. Regardless of what the end state will be, I applaud the willingness to make tough decisions to build a profitable portfolio.
So much BS.

No one is denying that BMW is a public company whose end goal is to maximize shareholders' value. That doesn't mean you have to sell out the brand value and well-earned reputation of being "the ultimate driving machine" for short-term profit.

BMW wasn't a "niche player" before it decided it needed to quintuple its line of vehicles and slap on the ///M badge on pretty much anything they can their hands on. When you have grown your line-up beyond that of the mass market car makers like Toyota, you know you have gone too far. Toyota has 6 SUVs (C-HR, RAV4, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser), and BMW has 7 (X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7). This is before counting all the drivetrain variants. Let that sink in.

What BMW needed to do was to stay faithful to its core brand value: the ultimate driving machine. Instead, it decided to cash in on its reputation by building watered down cars to mass market that couldn't tell the difference between RWD and FWD. No one believes in your hyperbolic and false choice between building cars that only a masochist can love and out-Lexusifying Lexus.

They could've evolved with time and expanded the lineup as needed, but what they've done in the last decade isn't that. It is undoing of what BMW of past stood for. They traded in their soul and loyal fan base for the mass market appeal and short-term profit.
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      08-02-2019, 07:26 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma01 View Post
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Originally Posted by SportySpice View Post
All of this "there was a time" and "BMW used to be" is boring. They're a mass market car, well vehicle, company in business to make a profit - not a niche brand. How many cars does Porsche sell in a year? Fine, point to them as a halo brand but the comparisons don't really seem to be apples to apples IMO. What's the Porsche version of a 3 series? An Audi.

Companies must evolve to stay relevant and the market has changed. Like it or not, Tesla has put pressure on the luxury car manufacturers. Vehicle sales in the US are down this year, even in the red hot SUV and pickup market. The Transportation sector is perhaps the largest producer of greenhouse gases in the US, and for more and more, particularly younger people, a car is a luxury not a necessity.

BMW could choose to become a niche player, building a limited set of heavy steering, manual cars with stiff suspensions that appeal to enthusiasts (only). Or they can try to figure out the right mix of models to remain a volume manufacturer. Regardless of what the end state will be, I applaud the willingness to make tough decisions to build a profitable portfolio.
So much BS.

No one is denying that BMW is a public company whose end goal is to maximize shareholders' value. That doesn't mean you have to sell out the brand value and well-earned reputation of being "the ultimate driving machine" for short-term profit.

BMW wasn't a "niche player" before it decided it needed to quintuple its line of vehicles and slap on the ///M badge on pretty much anything they can their hands on. When you have grown your line-up beyond that of the mass market car makers like Toyota, you know you have gone too far. Toyota has 6 SUVs (C-HR, RAV4, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser), and BMW has 7 (X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7). This is before counting all the drivetrain variants. Let that sink in.

What BMW needed to do was to stay faithful to its core brand value: the ultimate driving machine. Instead, it decided to cash in on its reputation by building watered down cars to mass market that couldn't tell the difference between RWD and FWD. No one believes in your hyperbolic and false choice between building cars that only a masochist can love and out-Lexusifying Lexus.

They could've evolved with time and expanded the lineup as needed, but what they've done in the last decade isn't that. It is undoing of what BMW of past stood for. They traded in their soul and loyal fan base for the mass market appeal and short-term profit.
So wise. Maybe you should be the next CEO of BMW. But what's your point? They make too many SUVs? Too many models? They've watered down their brand? They should be the exact same company they were 10, 15, or however many years ago when they were your ideal brand?

SUVs sell and are profitable. That's why companies build and sell them. Guess what? That buck tooth X7 everyone hates is going to help BMW build the next M2. At least BMW doesn't sell a pickup truck (yet).

Too many non-M M cars? Again, they sell and with all the added features are more profitable than a base model. Plus, they are more performance oriented models that harken back to whatever you think BMW used to be but isn't any longer. So what's your beef?

Their cars aren't what they used to be? News flash: no company's cars are. Cars today have to be safer and less polluting, resulting in equipment that adds weight and electronic nannies that interfere with the "ultimate driving experience." You're going to have to buy an E36 if you want a car that's like an E36 today.

This thread is about BMW scaling back models. I agree with that. Lexusification is a nice red herring but that's not what I said. Everyone is entitled to want what they want. But like it or not, EVs are here and more are coming. Self-driving cars are coming. Emissions requirements are getting tighter. The Chinese market will influence design because it is now the largest. The auto industry is changing and BMW has to change with it. If you like the end result, buy one. If you don't then don't.
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      08-02-2019, 07:45 AM   #179
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BMW still makes some solid vehicles-

X5 is a solid mid size SUV
X3 is a solid small SUV
The M3, M5, X3M and X5M are respectively awesome cars...

The problem is the core that they were built on...

The new 3 is nothing special at all and way over priced.
The 5 is an average boring sedan. The 7 is an extension of that.
Wtf is the X1, X2...? the 8 series is a bloated S class coupe competitor that benz does better... the X7; well while it may be great; this large SUV trend is a very temporary fad.

They need to find their way, my recommendations-

1) Make the cars enjoyable to drive again... like someone said; this doesn't mean you need to provide 911 levels of feedback, just don't follow Lexus.
2) Simplify models lineup... keep a 4 car and 4 suv core with I and M versions of all.
3) Make leases even less attractive... cheap leases destroy your brand value and destroy car resale value
4) Provide solid warranty and service plans... think Audi prepaid maintenance etc

The above won't make you a sales leader like in the past but it will pay massive dividends in the long term.
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      08-02-2019, 07:55 AM   #180
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The tag line "Ultimate Driving Machine" was pegged by BMW USA (Bob Lutz back in the day?) but note it isn't used anywhere else in the world where BMW uses the tag line "Sheer Driving Pleasure" instead.
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      08-02-2019, 10:56 AM   #181
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Apparently they didn't think they can, was there any manufacture able to?

I suppose Caddlic tried, and look at it, almost all of its sedan is getting shut down..., auto journalist loved CTS driving experience, the market outside enthusiasts didn't cared...

Had Caddy done with better interior then who knows, though that would probably make it more expensive and stop being "value" proposition and just have to be better than the German equivalent everywhere.
Heck the ATS-V was better than any comparable German performance sedan in regards to performance dynamics such as handling, steering, etc. Still nobody bought them so while that stuff makes for internet bragging rights there's little translation to sales success which is always the bottom line. The people here that moan and complain that BMW cars aren't what they used to be are customers BMW has already decided to move from because they know catering to that audience is no longer sustainable. Most people walk into MB, Audi, BMW dealerships today are simply looking for the associated badge and bling. They do not care about steering feel, cornering limits, weight, etc. As an enthusiast I feel it's fortunate that BMW still offers cars like the M2 and M3/M4 that are still RWD and available with a manual transmission as their competition has kind of moved on from core enthusiasts.
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      08-02-2019, 11:06 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma01 View Post
They could've evolved with time and expanded the lineup as needed, but what they've done in the last decade isn't that. It is undoing of what BMW of past stood for. They traded in their soul and loyal fan base for the mass market appeal and short-term profit.
Totally disagree as their moves have nothing to do with short term profit and more to do with long term sustainability. Enthusiasts are a dying breed. We all know Millenials in general don't share the love for automobiles of previous generations. It's a fact. The days of teenagers getting their driver's license within ticks of their birthday are long over as plenty of young people are going into their 20's without drivers licenses. Heck more millenials despise cars for pollution and begrudgingly use them strictly for A to B transportation. I am on other forums where they post with glee everytime there's a media story predicting doom and gloom for the automotive industry. It is what it is and BMW is simply altering their business for the changing demographics. My annual C&D w/R&T subscription is basically free as they are at the point where they are doing anything to get magazines in the hands of people to sell advertisement and stay in business. It sucks to be part of the crowd being left behind but it is what it is and rather than whine and complain, most here will be better served finding some appreciation for some really good performance vehicles (some still made by BMW like the M2C) that still exist today in this golden age of automobiles. The past is the past and it's not coming back.
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      08-02-2019, 12:49 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma01 View Post
They could've evolved with time and expanded the lineup as needed, but what they've done in the last decade isn't that. It is undoing of what BMW of past stood for. They traded in their soul and loyal fan base for the mass market appeal and short-term profit.
Totally disagree as their moves have nothing to do with short term profit and more to do with long term sustainability. Enthusiasts are a dying breed. We all know Millenials in general don't share the love for automobiles of previous generations. It's a fact. The days of teenagers getting their driver's license within ticks of their birthday are long over as plenty of young people are going into their 20's without drivers licenses. Heck more millenials despise cars for pollution and begrudgingly use them strictly for A to B transportation. I am on other forums where they post with glee everytime there's a media story predicting doom and gloom for the automotive industry. It is what it is and BMW is simply altering their business for the changing demographics. My annual C&D w/R&T subscription is basically free as they are at the point where they are doing anything to get magazines in the hands of people to sell advertisement and stay in business. It sucks to be part of the crowd being left behind but it is what it is and rather than whine and complain, most here will be better served finding some appreciation for some really good performance vehicles (some still made by BMW like the M2C) that still exist today in this golden age of automobiles. The past is the past and it's not coming back.
I see it this way as well which is why I try to keep the cars I have that I truly love and will never be made again. The Z4MR for example...unheard of today to have put the S54 M3 engine into a small two seater convertible with a good chassis and manual gearbox. Boxster is a nice car but was very different then and is even more different now. I love my Z4MR and it reminds me of a time when I lusted after BMWs as the holy grail of automotive pleasure. Can't say I feel that way about most of what they do today and with the move to electric and/or autonomous vehicles I think Z4MR days are long behind us.
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      08-02-2019, 01:08 PM   #184
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Well, specific case in pt, some ppl argue the latest Z4 is better than the previous because of trunk space...trunk space!!!! Never mind that is false w both tops up but whatever. My pt is who buys a 2 seater vert to carry cargo, who thinks like that in their right mind? That is a main factor in ppl's decision *for that type of car*? I'd argue they are not suited for the Z w that mentality and should've bought a SUV instead.

Someone said the 1st gen Z4 (which I preferred) sold well enough, so why didn't they evolve it rather than go crazily into a completely different route w the 2nd gen, and now the 3rd? Gotta be due to lack of profitability and the $$$ is going to more boring vehicles. Ppl only have themselves to blame buying all those moving appliances. Laughable Porsche sells more SUVs than sportscars, who are these ppl?
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      08-02-2019, 01:48 PM   #185
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I thought Z4 never sold that well or Z3
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      08-02-2019, 01:58 PM   #186
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Well, specific case in pt, some ppl argue the latest Z4 is better than the previous because of trunk space...trunk space!!!! Never mind that is false w both tops up but whatever. My pt is who buys a 2 seater vert to carry cargo, who thinks like that in their right mind? That is a main factor in ppl's decision *for that type of car*? I'd argue they are not suited for the Z w that mentality and should've bought a SUV instead.

Someone said the 1st gen Z4 (which I preferred) sold well enough, so why didn't they evolve it rather than go crazily into a completely different route w the 2nd gen, and now the 3rd? Gotta be due to lack of profitability and the $$$ is going to more boring vehicles. Ppl only have themselves to blame buying all those moving appliances. Laughable Porsche sells more SUVs than sportscars, who are these ppl?
Believe it or not these people that buy high dollar SUVs are the majority and have spoken with their fat wallets. Enthusiasts in a forum are part of an immense statistical minority. Our taste in vehicles don't pay the bills at the manufactures much anymore and this is why minivans on stilts (I would challenge anyone to tell me the Tesla Model X is anything but a six figure minivan if it weren't for the Falcon doors) rule the sales charts and the roads.

Let's have this conversation again in 30 years when driving a car will be considered an illegal activity and we will be lamenting those excellent BMWs from the 2010s that you could still drive with polluting ICE engines and disconnected electric power steering systems.
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      08-02-2019, 02:11 PM   #187
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Believe it or not these people that buy high dollar SUVs are the majority and have spoken with their fat wallets. Enthusiasts in a forum are part of an immense statistical minority. Our taste in vehicles don't pay the bills at the manufactures much anymore and this is why minivans on stilts (I would challenge anyone to tell me the Tesla Model X is anything but a six figure minivan if it weren't for the Falcon doors) rule the sales charts and the roads.

Let's have this conversation again in 30 years when driving a car will be considered an illegal activity and we will be lamenting those excellent BMWs from the 2010s that you could still drive with polluting ICE engines and disconnected electric power steering systems.
Ya, it was a rhetorical question. Obviously, these ppl don't enjoy driving but unfortunately overpower those that do.
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      08-02-2019, 03:20 PM   #188
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Once everyone realizes that their opinions are just that then all can be well. Personally I think the X3 is boring and not attractive which is why I went X1 and now X2. I went X2 this time because the m35i is not available in X1 and I do actually like the way it looks. It's a GTi that can go off road a little, like mountain roads. I took the X1 down some forestry dept. roads to get to the AT and it did just fine. 10mm ain't that much lower and I suspect the X2 would do just fine as well.

My opinion on the Z4? Build a vert based off the 1 series and build a Miata competitor. It should be doable in a not much higher price range. Want a performance model, put an M35i engine in as an option and a regular b48 as standard. Nobody has ever out Miata'd a Miata and a 60k attempt is kind of silly.

I think cutting down models isn't a bad idea, there really are too many, I personally don't understand why the even Xs exist and that even includes my X2 but again, in my opinion it is the best looking for the even series.

Why have a 2 door 4 series when it's probably the GC that sells the most? Keep the 2 lump in the GC with the 3 series because the hatchback is cool and the GT was stupid. Maybe keep the M4 because it does serve a purpose.

Keep the 5, drop the 6, keep the 7 or give it up and let Rolls handle the "real" luxury.

Offer a base, an M-sport, a plug in hybrid, and an M on all the core models and a base and M-sport for the smaller production models and maybe a full EV for those.

Get rid of Mini if it really is tanking that hard.

There's my useless opinion.
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      08-02-2019, 03:52 PM   #189
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Quote:
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They could've evolved with time and expanded the lineup as needed, but what they've done in the last decade isn't that. It is undoing of what BMW of past stood for. They traded in their soul and loyal fan base for the mass market appeal and short-term profit.
If BMW had 'dug in' to simply live with past success, where would they be today? I suggest they would be struggling to exist.

Yes, they moved with the times, X5, (what were they thinking of?). Diesel, (how dare they?). Chasing the money, or evolving with the market? Whatever... As to down sizing engines, (includes 3-cylinders in Europe), focus on AT, move to EPS, all essential for their existence in the European (home) market.

I've been with BMW since the 1970's, I still rate myself as a BMW enthusiast. Personally I believe BMW still offers many decent models these days, (cars for our time), we are spoiled for choice. As to the past, I say "get over it". Put it another way, "we have to". BMW EV's... if BMW is to exist in the future.

I do understand the attraction for the driving experience of the past, the simplicity, the raw driving experience. But we have moved on, users (including me) expect so much more from a vehicle these days. As another poster mentioned, if we want the driving experience of an older model like the E30/36, we need to drive the E30/36. We'll never get the same from a late model BMW, however much we may think those examples may be 'our' benchmark of a driver's BMW.
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      08-02-2019, 03:53 PM   #190
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BMW dis a lot if shitty mistakes lately. I can provide a list of at least 20 people in my circle that moves from BMW to Audi due to design only!
I have expected this and I have predicted this steps for a long time now as many things were “engineered” by the CFO and other idiotic members that sees only $ signs.

1 Series should have stay as it was HOT Hatch with RWD and true xDrive not shitty Haldex. It was an unicorn and a logical choice of many European car lovers that need a small RWD hatch. Instead they brought up a shitty and expensive Mazda or whatever with FWD transmission. So they blend in with the plebes. They had a unique winner and they killed it.
Nothing new in here, move on.

2 Series Touring was that Black sheep that never belonged in this carmaker portfolio no matter what others say. It was against any BMW philosophy, from every point of view.

The 8 Series, while a hood looking and true BMW did not managed to design it in a such way that can take other two people in the back. Two chihuahua will fight for space in there. A 2007 Accord has similar dimensions, yet, the leg room is absolutely impressive with a 6.2 ft person barely reaching the front bottom if sitting in the front and with more than acceptable (actually comfortable for normal people in the rear. I have been three times down to the dealership ready to buy the new 8 Series and could not justify the price for that cramped interior. Very bad space fragmentation. Live the car but many hate it for the same reason. Even my sales guy who I am very close with, told me that people reguse the vehicle due to lack of space. Literally a bigger Z4 for a bigger price.

As the article mentioned, the design is so all over the place that the jokes around me as a BMW fan are not even funny anymore!
I am literally embarassed and while a design is a personal thing, when ten people tell you that you are drunk, you better acknowledge that and go to sleep...

The engine cut is a vey very stupid idea, someone better fire that CFO before he will destroy the brand. BMW means Bayerische MOTORREN Werke not Bayerische
Minimum Werke.

Also, my opinion is that electric will not bring much and the majority of people I know do not want to brace electric for too many reasons. And, in some wide countries (US/ Canada), this is mot a feasible choice.
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      08-02-2019, 04:06 PM   #191
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Believe it or not these people that buy high dollar SUVs are the majority and have spoken with their fat wallets. Enthusiasts in a forum are part of an immense statistical minority.
Yes... he who pays the bills.

I remember the discussions when the E53 X5 was released to the market, many thought BMW had lost the plot, plus the same sort of comments we still hear and read today, about BMW diluting the brand, etc. Enthusiasts would have BMW, without changing direction, out of business.

Keep in mind what funds the M-cars!
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      08-03-2019, 08:20 AM   #192
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Believe it or not these people that buy high dollar SUVs are the majority and have spoken with their fat wallets. Enthusiasts in a forum are part of an immense statistical minority.
Yes... he who pays the bills.

I remember the discussions when the E53 X5 was released to the market, many thought BMW had lost the plot, plus the same sort of comments we still hear and read today, about BMW diluting the brand, etc. Enthusiasts would have BMW, without changing direction, out of business.

Keep in mind what funds the M-cars!
If the majority of a brand's customers buying SUV's keeps the M3 and 911 in the game not to mention gives us the 718 GT4 and Spyder I don't see the problem? Seriously what is everyone's issue with this. As long as they cater to the right audience when designing/engineering either types of vehicle what's the big deal? Profits bring more resources; doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal. Keep buying X3's, X5's, Macans and Cayennes so I can be able to continue to support my own motoring addictions!
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      08-03-2019, 11:03 AM   #193
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This is simple for me - the health of the auto industry is not nearly as good as being portrayed worldwide. Automakers are having to dilute their brands and cut models out of necessity, not out of choice. Of course there are other factors too (in BMW's case, poor leadership).

I also think that automakers are grossly overreacting to the electric car phenomenon. To bet your entire future R&D to this is foolish IMO.
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      08-03-2019, 12:05 PM   #194
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This is simple for me - the health of the auto industry is not nearly as good as being portrayed worldwide. Automakers are having to dilute their brands and cut models out of necessity, not out of choice. Of course there are other factors too (in BMW's case, poor leadership).

I also think that automakers are grossly overreacting to the electric car phenomenon. To bet your entire future R&D to this is foolish IMO.
8 series had to go, it is an expensive hideous replacement dor the beautiful 6 series. Crystal gear knobs really?
The 6 GT has to go. The dealerships aren't even pushing them. Heck, when I tried to drive one they said none available when I was looking at one in the lot. They did not know how many or when they will get more.
The 3 GT is no loss,basically an ugly version of the 4 GC which is a sensible sized 6 GC. Just upgrade the interior.
We do not need a four door 2 series , an X8 , Mini Country man.
We do need the 2 convertible as the 4 convertible will be too big and will have a soft top.
Keep the Z4 as it is nice and ditch the 4 convertible.
Keep X4 but ditch the X2
Upgrade the interiors of all 3,4,5 , X5, X3s as Kias have copied the BMW interiors and are just as nice.

The i8 needs more powerrrrr!
Yes we need some electric cars but the wholesale move to electric everything is not justified or sustainable.
No one needs full autonomous level 5 cars , the industry is overreacting to electric and autonomous vehicles .
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      08-04-2019, 12:39 AM   #195
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So wise. Maybe you should be the next CEO of BMW. But what's your point? They make too many SUVs? Too many models? They've watered down their brand? They should be the exact same company they were 10, 15, or however many years ago when they were your ideal brand?
Again, presenting a false binary choice between doing absolutely nothing and where they are today distorts what we are arguing about. My main point is that they should've been more coherent and strategic in terms of model expansion, not that they should've remained stagnant.

At least we can agree that we vote with our wallet. My G30 (which is the most un-BMW of the 9 I've purchased over 2 decades) will be the last one unless the G8x turns out to be a worthy successor in ways that the F8x never was.
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      08-04-2019, 08:53 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportySpice
So wise. Maybe you should be the next CEO of BMW. But what's your point? They make too many SUVs? Too many models? They've watered down their brand? They should be the exact same company they were 10, 15, or however many years ago when they were your ideal brand?
Again, presenting a false binary choice between doing absolutely nothing and where they are today distorts what we are arguing about. My main point is that they should've been more coherent and strategic in terms of model expansion, not that they should've remained stagnant.
i'm enjoying your argument, only because you're telling Sporty Spice what you want, what you really really want
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      08-04-2019, 06:30 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by enigma01 View Post
Again, presenting a false binary choice between doing absolutely nothing and where they are today distorts what we are arguing about. My main point is that they should've been more coherent and strategic in terms of model expansion, not that they should've remained stagnant.

At least we can agree that we vote with our wallet. My G30 (which is the most un-BMW of the 9 I've purchased over 2 decades) will be the last one unless the G8x turns out to be a worthy successor in ways that the F8x never was.
Dude, whatever.
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      08-04-2019, 07:26 PM   #198
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Yes... he who pays the bills.

I remember the discussions when the E53 X5 was released to the market, many thought BMW had lost the plot, plus the same sort of comments we still hear and read today, about BMW diluting the brand, etc. Enthusiasts would have BMW, without changing direction, out of business.

Keep in mind what funds the M-cars!
I mean, those discussions weren’t wrong. It only took a dozen more years for BMW to loose the plot with the likes of the F30 and a zillion more SUVs.

I’m not a BMW enthusiast, but, rather, a driving enthusiast, and I’d have been fine if both Porsche and BMW just quit after around 2012.
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