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G80 BMW M3 and M4 General Topics BMW M3 (G80), M4 (G82), CSL and 3.0 CSL General Forum

View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT?
I prefer a DCT. 235 60.57%
I prefer a traditional AT. 32 8.25%
Either is fine with me. 53 13.66%
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. 68 17.53%
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll

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      05-29-2020, 11:31 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
In no means do I want to sound patronizing, but I believe any major challenge you overcome while retaining your own philosophy becomes a huge asset for the future.

This feels like BMW is intentionally avoiding the challenge altogether. They need to invest in making icons that can rival 918 and trickle down the motorsport DNA instead of pleasing bean counters who cannot offer any vision for future models other than financial plans.
The 918 is indeed a desirable future, DCT and high cylinder count, high revving NA engine

Just one problem how do you shrink $1m budget to $100k . I’m with you all the way but it’s a challenge for sure. The NSX gives a glimmer of hope that something can be done on a shoe string but it seems M is eyeing a 4 banger hybrid for the M3.
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      05-29-2020, 11:35 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
This is a very short sighted comment and of oxymoron.
There are lots of fast, luxury cars out there. People choose M3/4 because it is 1. a BMW and 2. an M car. They like the characteristics, history and prestige behind it. If BMW stops making cars of motorsport nature of which made the subbrand M, they are lost in identity and eventually will perish.
Please point out the oxymoron, I can't see it.

I don't know how you decide which car to buy, but I can tell you how I and the majority of other people buy their cars: They have a budget, and they have a few (or many) weighted characteristics in mind, that the car should fullfil. Let's look at an imaginary sample list of those:
  • Budget: 80k
  • Should be fast, don't need a slow car
  • sports car, want to feel the street with all the bumps on the occasional joy rides
  • Sitting in traffic, so preferrably a converter automatic
  • Not going to the racetrack so no super harsh setup is needed, but still a firm suspension
With this list in mind, every potential car gets rated: For example a sonata:
  • Fits into the budget, even cheaper -> very good
  • Not really fast -> bad
  • No proper suspension setup and FWD -> bad
  • Automatic -> good
  • No super harsh setup, but also not a firm suspension -> mediocre
As you can imagine, taking into account the different weights this car would be somewhere more on the bottom of the list
Now let's do the same thing for the G80 M3/M4 how you wanted it to be:
  • Fits into budget -> good
  • Fast car -> good
  • Fast car, you feel everything, but actually too much for sitting in traffic -> mediocre
  • DCT -> bad
  • Harsh track setup -> bad
You can see, the car would also be near the bottom of the list. Probably still higher than the Sonata, but not a perfect match. If we do this once again, but how the G80 will (probably) be:
  • Fits into budget -> good
  • Fast car -> good
  • Fast car, you feel everything, and at the same time not super hard-> good
  • converter auto -> good
  • sporty, but not harsh track setup -> good
And now this car would be a very good match, people consider it and in the end buy it. Not based on what the heritage dictates (homologation car for track) or what you want (ultimate track car), but based on what the car is. We're back at my initial comment: The M3 wouldn't be the right car, if it was like you wanted it to be. But I didn't judge it like that, but like it actually is: With a firm, but not too firm suspension, with a converter, with all the driving assistants and luxury gadgets. And then the M3 does fit really well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I would understand if BMW wanted to charge more for the same DCT/MT package and there will be lots of current owners including myself who are willing to pay extra for keeping the iconic sports sedan longer in the shrinking market, but it seems instead they are forcing majority of avid drivers altogether to make an inferior purchase to what was offered 6 years ago. M cars were never directed at people who wanted S-class equivalent ride; it was for people who wanted 911 feel and performance while retaining practicality.
Don't fool yourself, remember that this forum is a bubble, there are proportionally much more likeminded people signed up here. You can bet all your money, that BMW went with exactly that decisions, that will make them the most money. If there were many people like you (or if that would be the majority), BMW would offer such an option. But the truth is, you are a minority and BMW has calculated that it is not worth it to invest the money to develop/homoligate a DCT transmission (at least not for the same price). And as I said before, if you want track, BMW actually offers you a much better car than the normal M4, you can get the M4 GT4, all the track focus, DCT, super firm suspension, bucket seats you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
These are very emotional purchases and any change that brings the car closer to mainstream cars that offer comfort, efficient, and luxurious ride instead of keeping its uniqueness will act adversely on the M division sales.
I don't know if you got this, but M's most sold car is the X3. It pretty much is comfort, efficiency and luxury par excellence. I am 100% certain, making the cars more comfortable, efficient and luxurious will boost their sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Maybe it's BMW group's plan to ultimately fade out motorsport division. They have always been pussycats to put R&D into motorsport since F1 days.
No, just like any good company, they are going with time. ICE are on the brink of their existence, if you want to believe it or not, alternative drives are the future, that's what the people want. And again.... producing what the people want = selling lot's of cars = $$$. The only reason BMW exists in the first place. Why do you think are they now competing in Formula E, because it's fun? Just marketing?

As a disclaimer: I don't want to argue pro or contra DCT/Converter. I just want to explain why BMW did this, why it is the correct decision (from BMWs POV) and why you are probably not the target group anymore. I'm not in the market for the G80 or any other sports car (will order the G30 LCI 545e once it's available) and I couldn't care less if they put a DCT, converter, electric, manual or whatever into the G80.

To sum it up: BMW wants to make $$$, BMW realised if they put a converter into the G80 they will make more $$$. So they put a converter into the G80 and are happy about their $$$. No, BMW doesn't give a *** about your (individual) opinion. Don't get me wrong, they do care about their customers (that's why they put a converter in), but it seems like you are not the target group and hence not a customer. So they don't care about your opinion.

Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 12:18 PM..
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      05-29-2020, 11:59 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The 918 is indeed a desirable future, DCT and high cylinder count, high revving NA engine

Just one problem how do you shrink $1m budget to $100k . I’m with you all the way but it’s a challenge for sure. The NSX gives a glimmer of hope that something can be done on a shoe string but it seems M is eyeing a 4 banger hybrid for the M3.
Simple calculation tells me that Porsche did not do 918 project for selling it to the mass, but trickle down its findings to money makers like Panamera and Cayenne (e hybrid model) 1*297=$297m from 2014-2015.

Same sales figure can be achieved with 80K M4s, 3750 units sold. From 2014-2017, M3/M4s sold around 100,000 units=$8B. which is approx $2B sales per year.

I am unsure how much money BMW spends on R&D but if Porsche can do it with less budget, BMW ifinitely not trying hard enough.
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      05-29-2020, 12:03 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Simple calculation tells me that Porsche did not do 918 project for selling it to the mass, but trickle down its findings to money makers like Panamera and Cayenne (e hybrid model) 1*297=$297m from 2014-2015.

Same sales figure can be achieved with 80K M4s, 3750 units sold. From 2014-2017, M3/M4s sold around 100,000 units=$8B. which is approx $2B sales per year.

I am unsure how much money BMW spends on R&D but if Porsche can do it with less budget, BMW ifinitely not trying hard enough.
Notable though is that the 918 remain the only Porsche hybrid with serious track ambitions. Let’s wait and see what the 911 and Cayman hybrids will feature. BMW also have hybrids in the Cayenne and Panamera class. The 918 is not really a template for the Cayenne hybrid, I doubt they share anything.
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      05-29-2020, 12:27 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Please point out the oxymoron, I can't see it.
It is oxymoron in the sense that you want to be part of experience (BMW M) when you don't really appreciate or care for motorsport spirit. In this case it is not a very logical purchase i.e. buying the wrong car and 550i or B5 would have comparable power and luxurious ride.

There are other inconsistencies in your assumptions but the biggest fault in your stats is X3M. If you are talking about most sold units in one year perhaps it is, but they have only been out for a year and M3/4 currently have record topping 100K plus units sold over production cycle.

And no, X3 M40i is not an M car so it shouldn't count towards M fleet sales figure. Those buyers are very different from real M demographics.
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      05-29-2020, 12:43 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
It is oxymoron in the sense that you want to be part of experience (BMW M) when you don't really appreciate or care for motorsport spirit. In this case it is not a very logical purchase i.e. buying the wrong car and 550i or B5 would have comparable power and luxurious ride.
Gatekeep much? I'm pretty sure most people don't really care about it being an M (for the heritage/appreciation), they just want a faster M340i and they know M = faster than normal BMW. So they went ahead and got the M3. Also, it's not about appreciation, BMW doesn't care if you appreciate the motorsport spirit, they care about $$$. As long as you buy their cars you can think whatever you want. For the discussion 550i vs M3, it's the same as I wrote before: If you care more about a small sports sedan than the increased luxury offered by the 5 series, the M3 is the better car. Because people buy it based on what it is, not what it should be or what some random guy on the internet thinks it should be. I don't know what's so hard about understanding that? Are you telling me, even though the M3 ticks all the boxes of the buyers, it's not the the right car because you think it should have a DCT (even though it has a converter), you think it should be track focused (even though it is just a sportier road car) and you think one should only get an M3 if one appreciates the history of M (even though you can just walk into a BMW dealership and order it no matter what you think about BMW)? Get a reality check, please!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
There are other inconsistencies in your assumptions but the biggest fault in your stats is X3M. If you are talking about most sold units in one year perhaps it is, but they have only been out for a year and M3/4 currently have record topping 100K plus units sold over production cycle.

And no, X3 M40i is not an M car so it shouldn't count towards M fleet sales figure. Those buyers are very different from real M demographics.
Yes, the X3 M40i is an M car, it says it right in the model name. It actually legally also is an M car. It is manufactured not by BMW AG, but by M GmbH (at least in Germany, don't know about the situation in other countries). Again, we are not talking about how you think it should be, but we are talking about the reality! Most sold car in 2019 is the X3 series (incl. the X3 M40i/X3 M40d). If you exclude that it's M2 > M5 > M4 > X3M > X4M. I do know this list is affected by the X3M/X4M being released within the year and the M3/M4 buyers knowing the G80 will be released in 2020. But that's not the point, maybe the M3/M4 does outsell the X3M/X4M, but still the X3M is very close.

But we are getting offtopic, so BTT: Most people either don't care if its a DCT or converter (probably the majority) or actually prefer a converter (less than those who are indifferent about it, but still more than the group that prefers the DCT), so BMW did the correct thing and put a converter in the car. Again: Remember this forum has a skewed view.

Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 01:10 PM..
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      05-29-2020, 01:42 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
I'm pretty sure most people don't really care about it being an M (for the heritage/appreciation), they just want a faster M340i and they know M = faster than normal BMW. So they went ahead and got the M3.
And here you sum up the whole problem.

The M340i was the right car for these people to buy. It's pretty much exactly as fast as the M3, and perhaps even faster for the 'stoplight racing' benchmark that 90% of people use.

Their badge envy (and BMW marketing) made them buy the wrong car.

This is why we end up with 'special editions' like GTS having truly impractical features like water-cooling and a roll-cage, and being stupidly overpriced.

Instead of those variants being aimed at a production run of 250, perhaps these models could aim at a production run of 10,000 and have the "impractical" features that "enthusiast" M owners actually want - e.g. I'd rather pay $5K extra for a transmission that is actually enjoyable for track driving than for a pointless CF bonnet.

This is what the CS (or even Comp) version should be IMHO. A car that an enthusiast would want to buy that spends the extra cost on track-centric features.

But then I suppose the M340i folks would just buy the CS model and complain.

Last edited by pbar; 05-29-2020 at 02:03 PM..
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      05-29-2020, 02:02 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
And here you sum up the whole problem.

The M340i was the right car for these people to buy. It's pretty much exactly as fast as the M3, and perhaps even faster for the 'stoplight racing' benchmark that 90% of people use.

Their badge envy (and BMW marketing) made them buy the wrong car.

This is why we end up with 'special editions' like GTS having truly impractical features like water-cooling and a roll-cage, and being stupidly overpriced.

Instead of those variants being aimed at a production run of 250, perhaps these models could aim at a production run of 10,000 and have the "impractical" features that "enthusiast" M owners actually want - e.g. I'd rather pay $5K extra for a transmission that is actually enjoyable for track driving than for a pointless CF bonnet.

This is what the CS version should be IMHO. A car that an enthusiast would want to buy that spends the extra cost on track-centric features.

But then I suppose the M340i folks would just buy the CS model and complain.
Yeah, from your POV you are right. But BMW makes more cash selling an M3 than selling the M340i. So, from their POV these people are doing the correc thing: more money for BMW

Of course it's sad for enthusiast, but that's the minority, so they don't have the same impact in development. I would also love to see CS or GTS versions without limited production for lower prices... But in the end, it's still the same thing I said like 3 times already, they did buy the right car:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Because people buy it based on what it is, not what it should be or what some random guy on the internet thinks it should be. I don't know what's so hard about understanding that? Are you telling me, even though the M3 ticks all the boxes of the buyers, it's not the the right car because you think it should have a DCT (even though it has a converter), you think it should be track focused (even though it is just a sportier road car) and you think one should only get an M3 if one appreciates the history of M (even though you can just walk into a BMW dealership and order it no matter what you think about BMW)? Get a reality check, please!
Also, for $5k you can get a F80 Getrag 7-speed DCT and fit it into the car. There are shops offering that already for the A90 Supra, which should have the same converter as the G80, so it should be possible to do that.
Edit: That was for the old supra. So probably not super easy to do that...

Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 02:15 PM..
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      05-29-2020, 02:20 PM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Yeah, from your POV you are right. But BMW makes more cash selling an M3 than selling the M340i. So, from their POV these people are doing the correc thing: more money for BMW
Yes, BMW's "M-branding" plan works for BMW. Until the M brand becomes worthless. Which is will if the mass-appeal cars become identical to every other manufacturer's option (Audi/BM).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Of course it's sad for enthusiast, but that's the minority, so they don't have the same impact in development. I would also love to see CS or GTS versions without limited production for lower prices... But in the end, it's still the same thing I said like 3 times already, they did buy the right car:
The bought the right car for BMW's profit margin, the wrong car for them (in terms of the way it handles).

With the G80, it will be the right car for BMW's profit, and the right car for their use case. But the wrong car for any driving enthusiast, and eventually that reputation will render the M "brand" worthless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Also, for $5k you can get a F80 Gertrag 7-speed DCT and fit it into the car. There are shops offering that already for the A90 Supra, which should have the same converter as the G80, so it should be possible to do that.
Now that is actually an interesting idea. However, I've never been the kind of person who buys a car and spends $20K modifying it - I bought M cars because I largely didn't need to change things.

The question is... should I spend 20K making a G82 into the car I want (with all the maintenance/warrant hassle that implies), or should I buy an AMG E53 with a DCT and improve the handling?
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      05-29-2020, 02:34 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Yes, BMW's "M-branding" plan works for BMW. Until the M brand becomes worthless. Which is will if the mass-appeal cars become identical to every other manufacturer's option (Audi/BM).

The bought the right car for BMW's profit margin, the wrong car for them (in terms of the way it handles).

With the G80, it will be the right car for BMW's profit, and the right car for their use case. But the wrong car for any driving enthusiast, and eventually that reputation will render the M "brand" worthless.
I don't think that will happpen. There will always be differentiation between the different manufacturers and hence the brand will not be worthless, since it still stands for the highest performing cars within the BMW lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Now that is actually an interesting idea. However, I've never been the kind of person who buys a car and spends $20K modifying it - I bought M cars because I largely didn't need to change things.

The question is... should I spend 20K making a G82 into the car I want (with all the maintenance/warrant hassle that implies), or should I buy an AMG E53 with a DCT and improve the handling?
Yeah $20k isn't worth it, the shop offered the conversion for the old supra for only 3k. Also, the E53 has a torque converter as well, only the V8 have the multiclutch transmission:
Quote:
The inline 6-cylinder engines are coupled with the AMG SPEEDSHIFT TCT 9G (TCT = Torque-Clutch Transmission) transmission. In conjunction with the torque converter, the automatic transmission is tuned to the special requirements of this engine. On the one hand, this guarantees maximum comfort during pulling away and shifting, while on the other, it allows for AMG-typical rapid and emotive shifting to suit the selected drive program.

Last edited by Flamingi; 05-29-2020 at 02:42 PM..
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      05-29-2020, 02:59 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingi View Post
Yeah $20k isn't worth it, the shop offered the conversion for the old supra for only 3k. Also, the E53 has a torque converter as well, only the V8 have the multiclutch transmission:
Damn... I read this preview https://www.slashgear.com/2021-merce...play-26622299/

Quote:
"The transmission is switched for an AMG SPEEDSHIFT TCT 9G system"
..and confused that with the "MCT" (which I think it the multi-clutch transmission they have in the C63S)

Now I'm out of backup options again. (C63S was actually nice to drive, but just a bit too bloated)
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      05-29-2020, 03:06 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
Damn... I read this preview https://www.slashgear.com/2021-merce...play-26622299/


..and confused that with the "MCT" (which I think it the multi-clutch transmission they have in the C63S)

Now I'm out of backup options again. (C63S was actually nice to drive, but just a bit too bloated)
P-car for you, could be worse
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      05-29-2020, 05:09 PM   #321
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P-car for you, could be worse
Where's Oprah when we need her?!
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      06-04-2020, 02:11 PM   #322
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In a recent video, it sounds like mule MC1-1436 has dual clutch. You can hear it shifts much faster than mule MD1-1746 on both up and downshifts. (And RWD!)
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      06-04-2020, 02:40 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
In a recent video, it sounds like mule MC1-1436 has dual clutch. You can hear it shifts much faster than mule MD1-1746 on both up and downshifts. (And RWD!)
Do we know which automatic/DCT the car will have? I was under the impression it would have the ZF8 like the M5.
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      06-04-2020, 09:28 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by super51fan View Post
Do we know which automatic/DCT the car will have? I was under the impression it would have the ZF8 like the M5.
Hopefully DCT is installed on pure RWD versions. AWD will have ZF8.
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      06-04-2020, 09:36 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Hopefully DCT is installed on pure RWD versions. AWD will have ZF8.
I would definitely go for that option... but I really don't think that it's going to happen.

It seems much more likely that they've tuned the hell out of the ZF8 downshift so it sounds fast... but that won't necessarily make it a driver's car if the shifts lag from paddle input, or if the ratios are too closely spaced to use in manual. I don't see how we can infer any of that from a ring video?

I don't want to be a passenger in my own M-car!
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      06-04-2020, 11:19 PM   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
I would definitely go for that option... but I really don't think that it's going to happen.

It seems much more likely that they've tuned the hell out of the ZF8 downshift so it sounds fast... but that won't necessarily make it a driver's car if the shifts lag from paddle input, or if the ratios are too closely spaced to use in manual. I don't see how we can infer any of that from a ring video?

I don't want to be a passenger in my own M-car!
I am sure they have at least one test mule with DCT to compare behaviors with ZF8. If Markus Flasch knows how to drive DCT in manual mode, he would be able to tell that its response is much crispier and immediate compared to ZF8 especially shifting at the redline (7200+rpm).

It's likely their last chance to make another great M3/4 with pure ICE, so I hope they make it count by not compromising anything.
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      06-08-2020, 10:40 PM   #327
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ZF8 vs DCT performance is small. If I was too pedestrian for a 6MT, I’d go with whichever auto was lighter and more reliable.
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      06-11-2020, 02:21 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reyoasian View Post
Problem with most DCTs nowadays (for front engines) is that they have no room to grow and can't handle as much torque as the good torque converters.
not true, McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche all have DCT. these cars are the benchmark of power and performance. the most hardcore race and GT cars are all DCT.

For BMW is just a cost argument, the number of M models sold is by far less than regular models and doesn't make sense for them to source and support such specialized part just for these cars that's a fraction of their fleet sold every year.

I have owned both AT (ZF) in M235i and DCT M3. The ZF shifts weren't slow but they were mushy and soft for lack of a better word. Not as crisp as the M3. when driving really hard (track for e.g.) you can tell the difference in shifting lag and how fast the rev's respond. I am no pro so if I could tell the difference I'm sure a hardcore driver will too
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      06-11-2020, 01:16 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbar View Post
This is why we end up with 'special editions' like GTS having truly impractical features like water-cooling and a roll-cage, and being stupidly overpriced.
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I don't think the GTS was stupidly overpriced. It struggles because most people automatically think Porsche when cars get expensive. Prices are already going up on the GTS.

A few days ago Car and Driver tested a 992 Carrera 4 with a few options, MSRP 129k. That is overpriced.
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      06-11-2020, 01:23 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Hopefully DCT is installed on pure RWD versions. AWD will have ZF8.
Every passing day I'm more convinced BMW will have the CSL/GTS have the DCT. RWD only and it'll be automatic, but the DCT is sportier than the ZF

In the end we're getting what people have been asking for. BMW used to build an M3 for ~70k with all the goodies, but now they're copying the Porsche business model that unless you have money for a GT3 you are a peasant.

In this new peasant mentality, BMW M does things like:
-gives F8X 1.3g oil threshold vs 1.4g on E9X. Gives GTS 1.4g
-removes CF driveshaft from F8X, only gives CS/GTS versions the CF goodies
-breaks what the E9X fixed in terms of fuel starvation. Now the F8X fuel starves like there is no tomorrow. GTS is supposed to have a fix

and I bet with the G8X generation this will extend to the DCT. If you are a peasant you will wind up with a auto which will be a liability at the track. If you are not a peasant you will be able to access a DCT.
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