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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions BMW Development Chief Has Had Enough of 3 Series Critics

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      10-13-2018, 01:10 PM   #221
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If the G20 handles as well as the new Ford Focus in ST-Line spec with Ford's SLA rear axle, which I recently test drove, then theyll be onto a winner. It was very good indeed.

BMW could learn a lot from Ford chassis engineers - and yes, I'm serious!!
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      10-13-2018, 04:38 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnPaul View Post
I was underwhelmed by the m2. It's the best of the m cars available today by far in my mind, but with all of these cars, the priority is on balancing speed, comfort and easy to drive. When you drive around normal city streets the car is flat out boring. You need to push it to have fun. But maybe this isn't a complaint about the m2 specifically, maybe it's the industry. Many Track cars still have hydraulic assist steering to give feedback. The old m cars were made for people who wanted a lot of interaction and feedback to cut close to the limit. Current performance cars assume that drivers are idiots and need to be saved from themselves so they mute the experience and have features to allow a novice to travel at great speed without worry. I just wish that the competition packs went with the older steering racks and made the back end move around move at lower speeds.
I've never owned an M car, but I thought about getting an M2 last time I went car shopping and after reading all the reviews about how its basically a terrible commuter car it really dissuaded me.

I think you can push say a 330i a lot harder because it has less power, which makes it more fun, so I'm not sure exactly what the point of an M car is at this point. I had a roomate who had an e46 m3 and that had the right balance of you could push it and actually use it on the streets while being decent enough to drive. I guess at this point I'd be pretty happy with like 330i level of HP with just M steering feel and suspension. That should be an option package like "M steering feel package"

Last edited by hans007; 10-13-2018 at 08:22 PM..
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      10-14-2018, 05:06 AM   #223
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"'ooh the E46 CSL was the last real 3 Series'

I do not want to hear that shit anymore."

Make better cars then.
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      10-14-2018, 11:47 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane View Post
"'ooh the E46 CSL was the last real 3 Series'

I do not want to hear that shit anymore."

Make better cars then.
If they make cars that quelled the noises from that particular corner of the English-speaking world, they would go out of business. A handful of people want an E46-style experience. The other 99% want an Audi, Merc, Lexus-like car that has a BMW badge.
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      10-14-2018, 12:26 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
the chassis is stiffer ok
but how exactly do you address steering feel with electric steering?
you can fake heavier and lighter electric steering but at the end of the day.. its electric
The EPS in the new 2019 M2 Competition is *by far* the best effort from BMW to date. We bought the M2C without selling my wife's primary car first (her E90 330i we bought new (ordered to get 6MT, etc)) specifically since we didn't want to be left with a new car she didn't enjoy. EPS feedback and overall feel was our primary worry. BMW has made a substantial change in the EPS from the M2 to the M2C.

I took the M2 Competition to a Michelin 1/2 mile wet skidpad event specifically to evaluate the EPS, feel approaching/at/over the limits of the front contact patches. My expectations were low given BMW's prior efforts with EPS (and one reason we've not purchased any new BMWs since the E9x generation), but I was truly surprised by how good it is under critical evaluation. The build up for steering wheel torque in proportion to tire force sideloads is excellent and well transmitted. Similarly, the reduction in steering wheel torque as the tire reaches and is near/at/over the limit is well transmitted. There may be a bit of numbness in the zone past the limit where additional lock is pointless, but that is about as critical as I could be about it.

I did a write up of the M2C, it's EPS feedback, etc, from the event here, if interested.

It's past the test, so we're going to keep the M2C; however, there are a couple of things I'm far more critical of about the car...at EPS isn't one of them.
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      10-14-2018, 01:23 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane View Post
"'ooh the E46 CSL was the last real 3 Series'

I do not want to hear that shit anymore."

Make better cars then.
Hahaha best comment!
Exactly what I was thinking.
You don't like negative reactions ? Then don't produce dog shit when the competition is releasing gems.
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      10-14-2018, 02:25 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottAndrew View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane View Post
"'ooh the E46 CSL was the last real 3 Series'

I do not want to hear that shit anymore."

Make better cars then.
If they make cars that quelled the noises from that particular corner of the English-speaking world, they would go out of business. A handful of people want an E46-style experience. The other 99% want an Audi, Merc, Lexus-like car that has a BMW badge.
That's cool too, but then don't complain like Herr Fröhlich here when that corner speaks negatively about you
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      10-14-2018, 06:31 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottAndrew View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane View Post
"'ooh the E46 CSL was the last real 3 Series'

I do not want to hear that shit anymore."

Make better cars then.
If they make cars that quelled the noises from that particular corner of the English-speaking world, they would go out of business. A handful of people want an E46-style experience. The other 99% want an Audi, Merc, Lexus-like car that has a BMW badge.
You basically just steered right into what I am saying. Bmw gave up on its principles and is fine to just be another benz clone.

And, when they made 4 versions of the 3 series (gt, wagon, normal one and the 4 grand coupe) why couldn't one of those have been a more focused one before going right up to the m3. The 4 grand coupe was supposed to be that, but it really wasn't any different. I think a mildly stiffer spring rate, but after numerous conversations at dealerships, no one really knew the difference for sure. They are also happy to make 7 different suvs. So why can't there be room in the line up for "an ultimate driving machine"?
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      10-15-2018, 03:24 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnPaul View Post
And, when they made 4 versions of the 3 series (gt, wagon, normal one and the 4 grand coupe) why couldn't one of those have been a more focused one before going right up to the m3. The 4 grand coupe was supposed to be that, but it really wasn't any different. I think a mildly stiffer spring rate, but after numerous conversations at dealerships, no one really knew the difference for sure. They are also happy to make 7 different suvs. So why can't there be room in the line up for "an ultimate driving machine"?
Isn't that what the G20 M340i is supposed to be addressing?

BMW probably missed an opportunity, not doing the same with the F3x models. They opted to provide M-performance parts, including the suspension (which not many seem to have fitted), but all dealer fitted. That was the big mistake (and let-down) from a customer's point of view. Performance package should have been factory fitted, to keep the cost at a sensible level. Simple answer is the current M-performance models, IMO.

Last edited by HighlandPete; 10-15-2018 at 03:31 AM..
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      10-15-2018, 06:50 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Isn't that what the G20 M340i is supposed to be addressing?

BMW probably missed an opportunity, not doing the same with the F3x models. They opted to provide M-performance parts, including the suspension (which not many seem to have fitted), but all dealer fitted. That was the big mistake (and let-down) from a customer's point of view. Performance package should have been factory fitted, to keep the cost at a sensible level. Simple answer is the current M-performance models, IMO.
BMW product planning, here in the USA, missed a significant potential opportunity with the F30, and then they compounded that error by blowing some of the customer goodwill attached to that opportunity. In the US only back in 2003 BMWNA marketed the E46 330i (sedan only in first model year) ZHP. The ZHP was only mildly different than a sport package 330i, but it was just enough different in all the right areas to squarely hit the nail on the head, product-wise. A cult following developed over time, and in today's terms low mileage, well-kept, cars with excellent provenance are valued much higher than a typical but identical example of a 330i.

There is a huge customer goodwill still attached to that option code. ZHP. What did BMWNA product planning do? They co-opted the ZHP moniker attaching it to a "limited run" of the 4-series coupe, something like 100 cars, which just had some Mperformance stuff on them and maybe a tune, something like that. It was 100% the opposite direction from how the original ZHP earned its name which was from an option code that resulted in modified exterior, interior, suspension, exhaust, transmission, differential, engine, all as a reasonably priced option.

That 4-series thing appeared as if a high up exec put out the word to the organization to come up with a "ZHP" of some sort, and then either didn't understand the market (at all) or simply had zero incentive to truly respond to potential customer demand. More likely this happened in the middle of the F30 program where the focus at BMW was "broadening the market appeal" of the 3-series, so something like a 335i ZHP, or 340i ZHP, didn't fit their newly minted internal map of the future of BMW where the direction appeared to be headed 100% opposite of their long past. When your goal is to respond to a new customer base who loves 1970s Detroit type power steering (as Car and Driver showed in their analysis of the F30 on a Kinematics and Compliance machine), none of those product planners would be rewarded for trying to upset the apple cart.

That market potential still exists, and as long as BMWNA does not exploit that marketplace goodwill with an inappropriate product, it could still be exploited. However, now that manual transmissions are not allowed in the USA 3-series any longer, the original formula which arrived with the 6spd manual in the E46 330i, doesn't quite fit. Nonetheless, if done right (and *only* if done right), it could still have a money making presence in the G20 as a unique, reasonably priced, attractive option code (but definitely not a limited run special).

If I was running product planning at BMWNA, I would look at applying it to the 330i since the M340i probably covers the higher end just under the G80. There may not be an exploitable space, price and profit-wise, between the 330i and M340i that wouldn't cannibalize the M340i sales, but I would investigate that potential. In fact, it's possible that a manual only 330i ZHP could sell enough to justify itself, compliance costs and all, if done right....the only manual transmission G20 available. Let the badge chasers buy the M340i while the hard core enthusiasts of old would salivate over this manual G20 330i ZHP. In any event, more power, trick adjustable suspension with adjustable front camber (a "real" enthusiast suspension system, not a marketing suspension), LSD diff, Alcantara interior, subtle exterior visual cues, Mperformance parts bin for some stuff like exhaust to help the P&L, etc...all at a price point that the market simply can't ignore. BMW you're not looking to make this thing a profit center. You're looking to reestablish your presence in the low end of the market with the former enthusiast following that you've left for dead here in the USA.

Oh well, doesn't matter a bit to me any longer...probably doesn't to them so why should it to me.
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      10-15-2018, 10:05 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenKane View Post
That's cool too, but then don't complain like Herr Fröhlich here when that corner speaks negatively about you
Some internet person above just pronounced that BMWs since the E46 were "dogshit". If that's what BMW Guy was complaining about, I don't blame him at all.
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      10-15-2018, 10:12 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnPaul View Post
You basically just steered right into what I am saying. Bmw gave up on its principles and is fine to just be another benz clone.
Well, it was to address another point which was that if BMW made a car from 20 years ago (the E46), they would almost instantly go out of business. You can't have a version of the G20 that feels like the E46, with all the power you want from a 2018 car. They have produced tightened versions of the current model, from time to time, and I'm sure they will again with this car. They just haven't announced it yet, even though "the internet" is apparently screaming for it....

I think one thing that's clear is that the small, vocal and often quite childish minority here who want to take their BMWs to the track are better off with an actual track car, or perhaps building their own, as their definition of "driving" is somewhat different to everybody else's. They can have hydraulic steering racks then!
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      10-15-2018, 12:49 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The only way to get that is to go for an ///M car.

The problem is once you go ///M you can never go back. Your ruined. It's like sitting 1st class/business class on an airplane. Once you do that you realize coach totally sucks.
And then you sit there screaming give me a wagon.
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      10-15-2018, 12:52 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
I've never owned an M car, but I thought about getting an M2 last time I went car shopping and after reading all the reviews about how its basically a terrible commuter car it really dissuaded me.

I think you can push say a 330i a lot harder because it has less power, which makes it more fun, so I'm not sure exactly what the point of an M car is at this point. I had a roomate who had an e46 m3 and that had the right balance of you could push it and actually use it on the streets while being decent enough to drive. I guess at this point I'd be pretty happy with like 330i level of HP with just M steering feel and suspension. That should be an option package like "M steering feel package"
To drive an M2/3/4 every day for a long distance you'd need to be an enthusiastic driver all the time well before you've had your morning coffee, energy drink, cocaine imho. That's why I ended up with my car - it isn't as aggressive as an M2/3/4 but it is more agressive than a 340i or 5-anything but still has a stupid amount of power
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      10-15-2018, 03:23 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
The only way to get that is to go for an ///M car.

The problem is once you go ///M you can never go back. Your ruined. It's like sitting 1st class/business class on an airplane. Once you do that you realize coach totally sucks.
And then you sit there screaming give me a wagon.
Huh?
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      10-15-2018, 07:45 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pheerIx View Post
"I do not want to hear that shit anymore."


The real badge we need on the new G20. The 330idonotwanttohearthatshitanymore
Someone please make this into a t-shirt!
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      10-16-2018, 01:16 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
In fairness they always save the sportiness for the ///M

I do agree with you, the base and m sport models don't really grab you the same way as it did in the past.

Bumper design, headlights and tires bolster the sporty look and with BMW trying to keep the prices competitive I can start to see why the base models look so blah.

Correct me if you feel different. I wonder if I'm on an island with this train or I should say "car" of thought.
I agree with this the base line always looks so weird compared to the M package they do that for a reason
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      10-16-2018, 01:46 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by jeddo45 View Post
He has to understand that the 3 series is going to have the most critics because it's one of the best but also more important cars that BMW has ever designed. when the e92 M3 came out, that car took the world by storm. There wasn't a single person in the world who would drive that car and come back hating it. I believe it's still the perfect drivers car to this day. There isn't another car that has come out that has eclipsed the statement that the M3 made when it came out. Because of it the 3 Series holds a special standard in the Auto industry. So when the new generation of 3 Series came out, everyone felt that they were underwhelming because of the precedent the E 92 M3 made. And not only the M3 of that generation, that 3-Series generation I believe in all is still BMW 3 Series production. With that being said I believe this new generation of 3 Series is a step in the right direction.
I agree that the e92 m3 is an amazing car, but there were a fair amount of critics when it was first introduced. They said it was bigger and heavier than the e46, had a v8 instead of an I6, lacked low end torque, and on and on...

It's a fundamental physical law that states a certain population of bmw enthusiasts will absolutely abhor the new 3 series chassis design when its introduced. They can't help it. They're as bound to that hate as lightning is to thunder.
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      10-16-2018, 11:16 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4life View Post
That's good to hear. Maybe the demographics of BMW owners will change for the better. No one should be seen in a 340 bimmer for 500/month rent fee. You should be driving a Camry.
It should be driven by folks who can easily afford a 1000/month payment.
You sound like a BMW dream customer who will pay more just so they can have a car other's can't afford. I value my money a bit more and won't throw away money just because its a BMW. If they aren't producing a quality product or something that differentiates itself from the competition, why should I pay $1000 a month? Let alone for a 3 series. My M3 isn't that much.
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      10-16-2018, 08:27 PM   #240
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I really like the looks, from the pics at least of the new 3. Interior is way better and the exterior looks alot more interesting to me than the F30. Really hoping they made some steering feel improvement, because we know it is possible, given that Porsche has done it. Even if it isn't like my E90, even half as good will be good enough for me. Also think the 330i will be about the right level of sportiness so one doesn't kill themselves, literally or with speeding tickets!
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      10-23-2018, 02:16 AM   #241
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Sorry Klaus, this is not going to turn out good for you mate.
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      10-23-2018, 08:33 AM   #242
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Sorry Klaus, this is not going to turn out good for you mate.
If you all organise a boycott and buy Alfas, you can run that fucker outta town altogether, show 'em who's boss!

I'm sure that'll have him crying all the way to the bank, as another million people in China buy more BMWs and a handful of grumpy old men on the internet cancel their order for an M3....
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