[Blackers]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Not being critical here, simply interested in how you guys are doing with costs and consumption... My driving profile is looking like it can possibly work with PHEV, if there is the 40+km electric range.

I see a high weekly mileage and just 49.9mpg. Am I right in the electric only figure being 220.1 miles? If so, doesn't it still make a diesel, the engine of choice for economy?

Yes, I know there is more to it than that, but from a financial position is it going to make sense long term?

You make a good point and I do think for higher mileage drivers then diesel could make more sense financially.

You are right that the total electric miles is 220 miles out of a total of 678 miles. Although there is a one off trip to Aberdeen of 250 miles which has skewed it somewhat. So really it is 220 miles out of a total of 428 milies, over 50% electric which cost nothing so far.

It will be interesting to see what the graph looks like after a month or two

For me when deciding to opt for the 330e I considered:
. My mileage is around 9k per annum, so under 200 miles per week
. Most journeys are short and are around Edinburgh e.g my commute is 5.1 miles
. Edinburgh is moving towards a ulev zone which may penalise diesels
. Edinburgh City Parking Permit for 12 month permit is £72 for a 330e and £219.50 for a 320d
. For a 320d I would pay £5015 tax increasing to £5182 next year
. For my 330e I pay £2753 tax decreasing to £2065 next year
. Currently in Scotland most public charging points do not charge for electricity

[tricky6]

Originally Posted by Blackers

You make a good point and I do think for higher mileage drivers then diesel could make more sense financially.

You are right that the total electric miles is 220 miles out of a total of 678 miles. Although there is a one off trip to Aberdeen of 250 miles which has skewed it somewhat. So really it is 220 miles out of a total of 428 milies, over 50% electric which cost nothing so far.

It will be interesting to see what the graph looks like after a month or two

For me when deciding to opt for the 330e I considered:
. My mileage is around 9k per annum, so under 200 miles per week
. Most journeys are short and are around Edinburgh e.g my commute is 5.1 miles
. Edinburgh is moving towards a ulev zone which may penalise diesels
. Edinburgh City Parking Permit for 12 month permit is £72 for a 330e and £219.50 for a 320d
. For a 320d I would pay £5015 tax increasing to £5182 next year
. For my 330e I pay £2753 tax decreasing to £2065 next year
. Currently in Scotland most public charging points do not charge for electricity

The BIK car tax is a BIG influence for me too. I can't see the point of paying £450+/month BIK for a 330d + another £350/month on top for the actual car. After 3 years you'd have paid for 2/3rd of it with zero equity. Just doesn't make any financial sense. Conversely there is no way I'd be able to get a fully maintained 330e for £500/month privately (assuming £0 deposit).

But the damn small boot is still causing us a few problems... ;-)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tricky6

The BIK car tax is a BIG influence for me too.

But the damn small boot is still causing us a few problems... ;-)

I have no tax benefit as a private buyer/user.

I'll be looking at the touring, (before deciding my next car), the saloon just wouldn't be flexible enough for my needs.

I will be able to charge at home, get most local return trips from one charge. I'd hope winter weather doesn't have to big a penalty, with benefit of home/cold start preconditioning.

Will be an interesting exercise, once the touring is available and all costs are considered.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Not being critical here, simply interested in how you guys are doing with costs and consumption... My driving profile is looking like it can possibly work with PHEV, if there is the 40+km electric range.

I see a high weekly mileage and just 49.9mpg. Am I right in the electric only figure being 220.1 miles? If so, doesn't it still make a diesel, the engine of choice for economy?

Yes, I know there is more to it than that, but from a financial position is it going to make sense long term?

Hmm agreed, I am following this with great interest, 330 is a very reasonable car from BMW ...but I'm getting a real world average over 12,000 of 41.3 MPG from a hefty X3 M40D. Tricky was getting 99.9+ MPG breaking iDrives 3 digit capability! That would have me changing , not sure about high 40s or low 50s TBF.

[tricky6]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I have no tax benefit as a private buyer/user.

I'll be looking at the touring, (before deciding my next car), the saloon just wouldn't be flexible enough for my needs.

I will be able to charge at home, get most local return trips from one charge. I'd hope winter weather doesn't have to big a penalty, with benefit of home/cold start preconditioning.

Will be an interesting exercise, once the touring is available and all costs are considered.

A mate with a ('65-plate) Golf GTE says the cold weather affects his range quite a bit (maybe 20%). Partially down to heating/heated seat power draw but also the battery isn't as efficient at low temperatures.

Haven't seen any range change myself yet but it hasn't really dropped below 10C yet down in Wiltshire. I'm sure it will... ;-)

The pre-conditioning lasts quite a while in terms of having a warm seat :-)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tricky6

A mate with a ('65-plate) Golf GTE says the cold weather affects his range quite a bit (maybe 20%). Partially down to heating/heated seat power draw but also the battery isn't as efficient at low temperatures.

Haven't seen any range change myself yet but it hasn't really dropped below 10C yet down in Wiltshire. I'm sure it will... ;-)

The pre-conditioning lasts quite a while in terms of having a warm seat :-)

Being in the Highlands, I would need convincing that at freezing temperatures, I'll not be left to run the ICE for just a few miles in everyday winter use.

In fact, this is one of my biggest concerns (as an engineer), the use of ICE in short bursts, particularly when started from cold. I don't like using any ICE for short trips, when the engine doesn't get to temperature. I see this factor as a big negative for getting the 330e.

I can see my self running the engine after a start, for the rest of my trip, (say 12 miles), simply to get it hot.

Anyone considered how the engine life will be shortened, by poor and/or short cyclic use?

[tricky6]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Being in the Highlands, I would need convincing that at freezing temperatures, I'll not be left to run the ICE for just a few miles in everyday winter use.

In fact, this is one of my biggest concerns (as an engineer), the use of ICE in short bursts, particularly when started from cold. I don't like using any ICE for short trips, when the engine doesn't get to temperature. I see this factor as a big negative for getting the 330e.

I can see my self running the engine after a start, for the rest of my trip, (say 12 miles), simply to get it hot.

Anyone considered how the engine life will be shortened, by poor and/or short cyclic use?

If it's a 12 mile trip why would you need to run the engine at all? The car has an electric heater so you still get warm. Providing you still below 65-ish MPH anyway, or don't have any big hills (possible a Highland problem!?) :-)

I think they do make modifications to the engine to provide longer life and if it isn't run for long periods it will start on its own to keep things lubricated but I'd be very wary of buying a 330e second hand, no idea whether they've activated XtraBoost from cold 1000 times!?

[mlcgd21]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Being in the Highlands, I would need convincing that at freezing temperatures, I'll not be left to run the ICE for just a few miles in everyday winter use.

In fact, this is one of my biggest concerns (as an engineer), the use of ICE in short bursts, particularly when started from cold. I don't like using any ICE for short trips, when the engine doesn't get to temperature. I see this factor as a big negative for getting the 330e.

I can see my self running the engine after a start, for the rest of my trip, (say 12 miles), simply to get it hot.

Anyone considered how the engine life will be shortened, by poor and/or short cyclic use?

Yes I think about that as well, but now I force myself to use this car like a normal car and don't over complicate things, when I bought it I almost didn't push the accelerator so I didn't wake up the ice engine for just a second or two only which could happen easily, but it made me drive in an almost dangerous way, and I also don't want to feel like I'm driving a 100 hp 1800 kg car all the time, that isn't the point with 330e, and I didn't enjoy it, I couldn't go over 70 mph or the engine would kick in in hybrid mode, and I always had to accelerate very carefully.

So now I drive normally, if I have to use the ice for the a few seconds to get up to speed I'll do it (which is needed), of course I won't rev it past 2500/3000 rpm when it is cold, but I won't wait for it to warm up before turning it off again.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by mlcgd21

Yes I think about that as well, but now I force myself to use this car like a normal car and don't over complicate things, when I bought it I almost didn't push the accelerator so I didn't wake up the ice engine for just a second or two only which could happen easily, but it made me drive in an almost dangerous way, and I also don't want to feel like I'm driving a 100 hp 1800 kg car all the time, that isn't the point with 330e, and I didn't enjoy it, I couldn't go over 70 mph or the engine would kick in in hybrid mode, and I always had to accelerate very carefully.

So now I drive normally, if I have to use the ice for the a few seconds to get up to speed I'll do it (which is needed), of course I won't rev it past 2500/3000 rpm when it is cold, but I won't wait for it to warm up before turning it off again.

It is comments like yours, which are realistic driving situations, acceleration, engine 'on and off', speed, etc., which make me question whether I want the hassle of a PHEV in the name of (questionable) 'progress'.

I picture myself driving along my normal route and want to grab an overtaking opportunity, engine hasn't run from driving off at below freezing. I want most, or all the 'horses'. I'll be cringing, or just stay sitting behind that annoying car (can't rev a freezing engine) for the next 8 miles.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tricky6

If it's a 12 mile trip why would you need to run the engine at all? The car has an electric heater so you still get warm. Providing you still below 65-ish MPH anyway, or don't have any big hills (possible a Highland problem!?) :-)

What I mean is, I'm possibly heading home on my 12 mile return trip, after driving around in the worst of winter and have used up most of the charge. Say I've got 5 miles range, and have to make the decision, do I drive on the ICE, get the engine hot, or just let it start as the battery fails and run a few miles in a cold to warm state? I'd be tempted to run the 12 miles on the ICE, to get some heat in the engine, not run it a handful of miles and switch it off still half cold.

[tricky6]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

What I mean is, I'm possibly heading home on my 12 mile return trip, after driving around in the worst of winter and have used up most of the charge. Say I've got 5 miles range, and have to make the decision, do I drive on the ICE, get the engine hot, or just let it start as the battery fails and run a few miles in a cold to warm state? I'd be tempted to run the 12 miles on the ICE, to get some heat in the engine, not run it a handful of miles and switch it off still half cold.

Ah ok. So I reckon you'd struggle not to get 25 miles out of it on electric (but perhaps lets see how winter treats me!)

Personally I guess it depends on whether it's your personal car or a business lease. As the latter I don't really care, someone will need to fix the car if it breaks and it won't be me that pays for it. If a personal care then I can understand the concern. But I do run my car in Sport to warm up the engine before unleashing the performance.

[mlcgd21]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

It is comments like yours, which are realistic driving situations, acceleration, engine 'on and off', speed, etc., which make me question whether I want the hassle of a PHEV in the name of (questionable) 'progress'.

I picture myself driving along my normal route and want to grab an overtaking opportunity, engine hasn't run from driving off at below freezing. I want most, or all the 'horses'. I'll be cringing, or just stay sitting behind that annoying car (can't rev a freezing engine) for the next 8 miles.

One thing I can say is that the 330e ice gets up to temperature very quickly, faster than in a conventional car, I don't know if there is some sort of pre heating while the electric motor is running? I usually check the oil temperature gauge and after only 2 klms the temperature is already near 100 ºC, with my other cars it takes way longer. But it is also never really freezing (not even close) where I live.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tricky6

Ah ok. So I reckon you'd struggle not to get 25 miles out of it on electric (but perhaps lets see how winter treats me!)

Personally I guess it depends on whether it's your personal car or a business lease. As the latter I don't really care, someone will need to fix the car if it breaks and it won't be me that pays for it. If a personal care then I can understand the concern. But I do run my car in Sport to warm up the engine before unleashing the performance.

I know when I chatted with a couple of sales guys when the F30 330e came along, neither believed it was a good purchase for the private buyer. Was my conclusion, fine for the company car user, with lease and BIK benefits. Still not sure it makes sense, for the private user, even with a bit more range. M340i still has its attraction.

Will certainly be watching the progress of 330e use, as we go into winter. I'm looking for at least 30 miles during winter use, to make it a workable proposition.

[-Nick]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

It is comments like yours, which are realistic driving situations, acceleration, engine 'on and off', speed, etc., which make me question whether I want the hassle of a PHEV in the name of (questionable) 'progress'.

I picture myself driving along my normal route and want to grab an overtaking opportunity, engine hasn't run from driving off at below freezing. I want most, or all the 'horses'. I'll be cringing, or just stay sitting behind that annoying car (can't rev a freezing engine) for the next 8 miles.

The power is always there if you want it, no need to cringe just give it 5 seconds of moderate club foot and the engine isn't going to break

[rhosneigr]

Just on the point of electric only range - first page shows Blackers think showing 21miles at 90% (so about 23 total assuming linear charge) and Tricky 26 miles. Both are some way off WLST 40 miles or whatever but also both are different.

Is that because it calcs the range based on driving history, temperature etc?

Looking forward to getting mine mid Nov

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by -Nick

The power is always there if you want it, no need to cringe just give it 5 seconds of moderate club foot and the engine isn't going to break

So you are saying you'd just load an engine that has not been running at all from driving off cold, to make a fast overtake? That's not my way of driving any engine. How is oil getting around the engine, before loading it?

Perhaps these discussions are helping firm up my opinion, that PHEV may not be suited for me, as my next car.

[tricky6]

Originally Posted by rhosneigr

Just on the point of electric only range - first page shows Blackers think showing 21miles at 90% (so about 23 total assuming linear charge) and Tricky 26 miles. Both are some way off WLST 40 miles or whatever but also both are different.

Is that because it calcs the range based on driving history, temperature etc?

Looking forward to getting mine mid Nov

I've not yet got my head around how it calculates this number either, I've seen it vary from 21-26 when 100% charged. Best I've ever seen is 26 miles.

One day I'll put it into full electric on a full charge and see how many miles I get.

But on my 46 mile commute (one way) I easily get 35 miles of electric. On a 170 mile trip I got 47 miles. Regen power does add up over time.

Bit colder and darker in Scotland than in Wiltshire, perhaps that's it? ;-)

[tricky6]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

So you are saying you'd just load an engine that has not been running at all from driving off cold, to make a fast overtake? That's not my way of driving any engine. How is oil getting around the engine, before loading it?

Perhaps these discussions are helping firm up my opinion, that PHEV may not be suited for me, as my next car.

So Nick's point is valid in that if you boot it regardless of "engine warmth" then you still get all the performance of both power trains. But with a cold engine this has got to "hurt". The long term impact of how this affects the mechanics will come out in the wash I guess.

Tolerances are pretty interesting with "performance" cars in mainstream models. Many moons ago my 2003 M3 had a whole "warm up" routine indicated by lights on the rev counter about how hard to rev it. Before that I ran a 1999 Audi S3 which went through an engine and 2 gearboxes in 60k miles. The dealer had a "word on the side" and indicated that the tolerances on the S3 weren't any greater than a normal A3 so if you drive it hard it will break. Which I did and it did.

To benchmark, what's the score with the F30 330e? I presume that they have the same "instant start"? Are they unreliable, do we have any members who have run them for 100k+ miles who are blowing a blue smoke screen down the road/have had major engine rebuilds, or is it too soon to know? The latter I'd guess...

But still, if you've only got a 12 mile roundtrip then unless you've got some serious mountains to climb/do traffic light burn offs you can drive the 330e quickly enough without needing to resort to the engine. I don't ever feel like I'm "holding people up" by keeping it within electric propulsion. In fact 0-20/30 it's probably quicker than most normal drivers.

Does your local dealer have a 48 hr demo for you to try? Performance is so subjective :-)

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tricky6

So Nick's point is valid in that if you boot it regardless of "engine warmth" then you still get all the performance of both power trains. But with a cold engine this has got to "hurt". The long term impact of how this affects the mechanics will come out in the wash I guess.

Tolerances are pretty interesting with "performance" cars in mainstream models. Many moons ago my 2003 M3 had a whole "warm up" routine indicated by lights on the rev counter about how hard to rev it. Before that I ran a 1999 Audi S3 which went through an engine and 2 gearboxes in 60k miles. The dealer had a "word on the side" and indicated that the tolerances on the S3 weren't any greater than a normal A3 so if you drive it hard it will break. Which I did and it did.

To benchmark, what's the score with the F30 330e? I presume that they have the same "instant start"? Are they unreliable, do we have any members who have run them for 100k+ miles who are blowing a blue smoke screen down the road/have had major engine rebuilds, or is it too soon to know? The latter I'd guess...

But still, if you've only got a 12 mile roundtrip then unless you've got some serious mountains to climb/do traffic light burn offs you can drive the 330e quickly enough without needing to resort to the engine. I don't ever feel like I'm "holding people up" by keeping it within electric propulsion. In fact 0-20/30 it's probably quicker than most normal drivers.

Does your local dealer have a 48 hr demo for you to try? Performance is so subjective :-)

Very fair comments, and some of the issues do go through my mind. Including trying a car for a day or two.

A couple more points. How do 330e drivers assess whether they have really run-in the engine? Hopefully (with good EV use) the engine has hardy run many miles, at the normal 1200 mile run-in target. Then there is the fact that our normal ICE will drive say 100,000 miles, the PHEV may have run less than 20,000 miles with some users, so hardly freed up. Suppose it can take more 'wear and tear' without many knowing it has worn more, due to poor running cycles.

There is the old adage that if you buy a higher mileage car, "buy one that has done mostly motorway miles, not one that has only been used locally". Guess we'll have something to say about buying PHEV in a few years time.

BTW, my trips from a charge would be between 24 - 36 miles.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tricky6

I've not yet got my head around how it calculates this number either, I've seen it vary from 21-26 when 100% charged. Best I've ever seen is 26 miles.

One day I'll put it into full electric on a full charge and see how many miles I get.

But on my 46 mile commute (one way) I easily get 35 miles of electric. On a 170 mile trip I got 47 miles. Regen power does add up over time.

Bit colder and darker in Scotland than in Wiltshire, perhaps that's it? ;-)

Over on the 5-series forum, range was discussed a while back, for the 530e. Remember it being identified/calculated as using Miles/kW, based on previous use. Makes sense that the OBC is doing the same for battery range as mpg.

[mlcgd21]

I've done 3000 klms now in the 330e and my experience with electric range is the following, in full electric mode with AC off driving normally I got between 50-55 klms with one charge, in normal hybrid mode with AC sometimes on and driving faster than before I get around 42-45 klms electric klms, and since I do an average of 48 klms daily, my fuel average during work week is currently at 282 mpg/ 1l/100 km + 1 charge per day.

I did one bigger trip (340 klms) and managed to do 90 klms in electric using Hybrid Eco Pro mode. Total mpg for this trip was 48 mpg/5,9 l/100 km and one full charge, drove between 130-155 km/h.

For my commute this hybrid is perfect, but if I did a lot of miles and big trips I would have probably bought a 320d instead.

[Cranester1983]

Good thing about having a company car is I don’t really care if the engine is cold 😂