[openwheelracing]

You shouldn't celebrate too early. January sales fell across the board for everyone, not just Model 3. People don't buy in January especially when it's freezing outside.

Having inventory does not mean no one is buying. During December, they also had plenty of inventory ready to go. They are just shipping overseas now.

Price drop is good for future buyers too, especially considering how well the Model 3 maintains resale value.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

You shouldn't celebrate too early. January sells fell across the board for everyone, not just Model 3. People don't buy in January especially when it's freezing outside.

Having inventory does not mean no one is buying. During December, they also had plenty of inventory ready to go. They are just shipping overseas now.

Price drop is good for future buyers too, especially considering how well the Model 3 maintains resale value.

The key number for Model 3 this year probably will be Euro sales. Currently pre-order numbers stand at 20k (went up 5k in a month). It is unclear how that number will ramp up (and Tesla needs that ramp to fill production pipelines).

https://insideevs.com/tesla-model-3-...-europe-20000/

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by sbt007

Model 3 sales fell 74% in January, hence the cut. Although people rushing to buy them in december to get the fed rebate probably inflated december numbers.

They were building thousands of cars for Europe (just now arriving into Zeebrugge, next stop Bremerhaven - the names we're so used to seeing in the reverse order), so it's not clear how many were available on the U.S. market at all.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

They were building thousands of cars for Europe (just now arriving into Zeebrugge, next stop Bremerhaven - the names we're so used to seeing in the reverse order), so it's not clear how many were available on the U.S. market at all.

As of right now local NorCal stores have immediate delivery for LR/AWD and P. Sign in the morning, and take delivery late afternoon (or next morning). So there is a healthy supply available.

One friend said the current buying experience is like shopping for a TV at BestBuy/Frys in store.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

As of right now local NorCal stores have immediate delivery for LR/AWD and P. Sign in the morning, and take delivery late afternoon (or next morning). So there is a healthy supply available.

One friend said the current buying experience is like shopping for a TV at BestBuy/Frys in store.

Most people in California buy the MR/RWD model.

Do you sleep at night with BMWs sitting on dealership lots? Oh my God, you can actually take home a blue Model 3P LR AWD tomorrow morning. What an awful car it must be.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Most people in California buy the MR/RWD model.

Do you sleep at night with BMWs sitting on dealership lots? Oh my God, you can actually take home a blue Model 3P LR AWD tomorrow morning. What an awful car it must be.

A Tesla buying experience as simple as buying a TV from BestBuy is great. There is no more long waits and posturing from the delivery center - what's not to like? Pay in the morning, return for delivery in the afternoon, start charging at night.

Finally the Tesla buying experience matches the ease of BMW buying experience, and that is a plus.

[Sportstick]

Thinking back to grade school and the commutative principle, does this suggest BMW 3 Series shoppers open to EVs should be checking out the Kia showroom, and not for Stinger, this time?

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...paign=15946319

[openwheelracing]

Exactly my point. A review of Kia EV with a title including "Tesla Model 3". That's all you need to know. The star of the review, is obviously a Tesla, not a Kia. In this day and age, you have to understand how click baits work.

[mkoesel]

Click bait indeed.

Another great idea for C&D - review the $35k Kia Sportage, noting in the article title that there is no $35k BMW 320i available today, and then suggest those who want to purchase the RWD sport sedan instead consider the FWD SUV.

[bavarianride]

For a thread titled "G20 versus Model 3" on a BMW G20 subforum, the star obviously is G20.

But since a comparison of Kia and G20 (without 320i!) is brought up, one should note that there are comparison of i-Pace and Model 3 in print.

Also, another data point is, the guy at work in fact was going to buy a Model 3 P, but was more impressed by i-Pace than Model 3 P, but hey let's rip that apart as heresy too, why not?

And obviously if click bait is suspected, then do not click let alone post.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

For a thread titled "G20 versus Model 3" on a BMW G20 subforum, the star obviously is G20.

In fact, this discussion and others like it - at least a dozen more Tesla threads can be found proliferated around Bimmerpost - are about the following phenomena, as noted by Bernard Kuhnt:

https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/tesla...-pressure-bmw/

Let's be smart. We can have a reasonable discussion, but let's not even remotely imply we know more about what is going on in the marketplace than BMW's own corporate leadership.

Tesla and the Model 3 absolutely are disruptive forces for BMW and other traditional players, and such forces absolutely do lead to unpleasant realities for the BMW community and other automotive communities. Thank you for acknowledging this and not making it about some school-yard popularity contest.

But since a comparison of Kia and G20 (without 320i!) is brought up, one should note that there are comparison of i-Pace and Model 3 in print.

There are nonsense comparisons all over the online automotive media landscape. We'll make an effort to ignore those and favor the higher quality ones, both because it better serves both sides in our collective quest for knowledge, and because we want to reward the best journalism (we all love having access to solid, rationally crafted media).

Also, another data point is, the guy at work in fact was going to buy a Model 3 P, but was more impressed by i-Pace than Model 3 P, but hey let's rip that apart as heresy too, why not?

Anecdotes like that may be fun to banter about, but they mean absolutely nothing when it comes to actually understanding the market at large. Also, they tend to divert attention away from trends and toward generally irrelevant outlying data points.

Furthermore, the forums are organized in a hierarchy for a reason, and we appreciate when you do your best to post information where it belongs. Off-topic posts are subject to removal.

And obviously if click bait is suspected, then do not click let alone post.

Bimmerpost is quality website that does not publish or republish garbage. We do our absolute best to get the facts to our readers. Rest assured that I will continue to keep the forums as free from false or misleading information as possible. If one wants to broadcast or re-share substandard information and the like there are better places to accomplish such agendas.

Thanks for enjoying Bimmerpost, and have a great day.

[Sportstick]

For those more knowledgeable about the tactics of click bait, presumably in the pursuit of website revenue, how does the subsequent opinion piece praising the Niro add to the author's/website's benefit if you suspect it is less than sincere?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

For those more knowledgeable about the tactics of click bait, presumably in the pursuit of website revenue, how does the subsequent opinion piece praising the Niro add to the author's/website's benefit if you suspect it is less than sincere?

The Niro is no doubt a quality EV for its price.

But it and its manufacturer, Kia, do not grab attention like Tesla does. As the author of the article notes in his first sentence:

"It's not right that the Kia Niro EV comes with not even a whiff of the anticipation that swirled around the Chevy Bolt EV ahead of its launch, nor the star appeal of anything Tesla."

He's right - Kia/Hyundai deserve more props for being early to market with EVs (even if they are nevertheless still selling them only in Cali-compliance states).

Unfortunately he bolsters the phenomena with which he expresses dismay by dedicating headline real estate to Tesla in what is an otherwise quality article about a good yet distinctly non-Tesla product.

Look, this isn't remotely the worst example of "click-bait", but we can still call a spade a spade. The Niro is the first affordable all-electric SUV (though unfortunately lacking an available AWD configuration like almost every ICE SUV has), and is absolutely a great alternative to 200+ mile EV hatchlets like the Bolt and Leaf e+. A sport sedan, however, it is not.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

In fact, this discussion and others like it - at least a dozen more Tesla threads can be found proliferated around Bimmerpost - are about the following phenomena, as noted by Bernard Kuhnt:

https://electrek.co/2018/10/03/tesla...-pressure-bmw/

Let's be smart. We can have a reasonable discussion, but let's not even remotely imply we know more about what is going on in the marketplace than BMW's own corporate leadership.

Tesla and the Model 3 absolutely are disruptive forces for BMW and other traditional players, and such forces absolutely do lead to unpleasant realities for the BMW community and other automotive communities. Thank you for acknowledging this and not making it about some school-yard popularity contest.

BMW top brass called an all-hands-on-deck to fend off the electric assault in Jan 2017, so it is not like BMW and other automakers are sitting on their hands.

The relevance of G20(or even G01 X3) in this thread and discussion of this nature is that, G20 is the way that BMW says it is pissed off, and that is a great thing for enthusiasts EV or ICE alike.

Non-sense/garbage comparisons or otherwise can be subjective(even amidst objective numbers). The bottom line is the consumers have the final say, so Tesla opponents and proponents running smear campaigns against each other(just like the political landscape these days) do not work for those clear headed folks who pick EV/ICE/BMW/Tesla(etc, etc) based on their assessments. The point is to be respectable, and appreciative, of other's views and choices, that's the attribute valued by many(well at least me).

On the subject of Tesla, my view is that, their greatest strength since day one is SV tech, not mainstream auto manufacturing, and they have made huge bets on EAP and FSD and such. Those not working seamlessly allows Tesla product lineups(S/X/3) to be threatened by deep-pocket competitors, e.g. i-Pace/upcoming Taycan and the like nibbing at the high end(Model 3 P, S, X), plus 200-mile Leaf@$26k after incentives put a solid wall on the low end, and Model 3@$50k demand is trending down. That is the current state, which is dynamic on day-to-day basis.

It is fair to say arm chair discussions from anyone on this quality forum and others are still arm chair. This is said with certainty as any insider with real knowledge will not disclose anything on a public forum like this.

Anyway, those are my arm chair views, and have a nice day.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The bottom line is the consumers have the final say, so Tesla opponents and proponents running smear campaigns against each other(just like the political landscape these days) do not work for those clear headed folks who pick EV/ICE/BMW/Tesla(etc, etc) based on their assessments. The point is to be respectable, and appreciative, of other's views and choices, that's the attribute valued by many(well at least me).

Right, well, unfortunately, the mud slinging nevertheless does happen and it keeps popping up routinely. My point is just that - it is wisest for everyone not to get caught in that, and instead stick to the products and the pros/cons of each. That's a productive discussion everyone can benefit from.

On the subject of Tesla, my view is that...

Sure. No shortage of opinions on Tesla, Elon Musk, and the EV revolution. But this thread is specifically about the Model 3 as compared to the new 3 Series. I realize - believe me, it's been keeping me busy moderating for a couple years if not more - that it is easy to start veering into the weeds. A number of folks have chosen which side they think is the right one as far as Tesla's long term financial viability, and some find it impossible to resist relentlessly advocating for their position. But it always degenerates into a slugfest and pulls any product-centric discussion hopelessly off topic. There is a great thread in the Religion/Politics forum where you can discuss the "Church of Tesla" with other forum members.

It is fair to say arm chair discussions from anyone on this quality forum and others are still arm chair. This is said with certainty as any insider with real knowledge will not disclose anything on a public forum like this.

I'll disagree with such a generalization because I have specific information about a few forum members who contribute here. That said, the purpose is for everyone to be able to share regardless of who they are, what they do IRL, or from where they post. As long as members are willing to participate in keeping with the Terms of Use, then everyone is welcome.

[ynguldyn]

The most prudent thing to do if we want to keep this conversation productive is stop comparing EVs just because they're EVs. The market has matured beyond the point where this made sense. No one puts RAV4 and 330i into the same comparison so we shouldn't do that with the Niro EV and Model 3. No one puts 340i and Mercedes GLE into the same comparison so we shouldn't do that with Model 3 and i-Pace.

Much more useful would be to include G26 BEV in this conversation. Granted, we know very little about it at this point (G20 LWB platform, 80KWh battery, single or dual motor) but until it comes to market there will literally be no direct competitor to Model 3. Not a single other car sold for $40K-$75K today can seat five, provide comfortable long distance cruising, while at the same time offering the dynamics of a true sports car. The latter point should be especially important to the audience here, and it's highly surprising that most anti-Tesla posters in this thread are completely ignoring it.

The G26 could finally bring all of the above in a car not built by Tesla. The only questions are: will BMW be able to build electric powertrains as good as Tesla's, how much will the car cost, and how much progress will Tesla make in the two years before G26 is released? The answers will likely depend on two factors: the overall efficiency of the G26 package (BMW should hit 300Wh/mile warm weather average) and the battery pack cost (Tesla has something like 20%-40% lead over everyone else right now - BMW must get within 20%).

Two other things I'm intentionally leaving aside for two opposite reasons. First, build quality is not an issue, because I have zero doubts that in two years Tesla's build quality will be on par with BMW. Second, I don't think we can meaningfully discuss future autonomous driving capabilities since it's totally unclear how much they will factor into average buyers' decision and how much progress the two companies will make.

[openwheelracing]

My concern with G26, is BMW has more incentive to push that car up market with premium cost over the sea of 330i and 340i. So when it is released in 2020+, without a huge infrastructure for batteries and dedicated EV production line, the price will be at a premium.

Tesla though, is already there with the Model 3 minus some quality control and customer service. I am driving a black Model 3 right now on a extended test drive. The car handles better than all my previous BMWs, and the interior makes more sense by the day.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'll disagree with such a generalization because I have specific information about a few forum members who contribute here. That said, the purpose is for everyone to be able to share regardless of who they are, what they do IRL, or from where they post. As long as members are willing to participate in keeping with the Terms of Use, then everyone is welcome.

That sounds fair, thanks for the reply.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

My concern with G26, is BMW has more incentive to push that car up market with premium cost over the sea of 330i and 340i. So when it is released in 2020+, without a huge infrastructure for batteries and dedicated EV production line, the price will be at a premium.

I think this is more likely to happen if the underlying platform doesn't work out to be price competitive with Tesla: BMW will then have to hide the extra cost, and the easiest way to do it is with premium features and overpriced options. And this will be a mistake because by then competing on price will be the only way to limit Tesla's market capture.

Tesla though, is already there with the Model 3 minus some quality control and customer service. I am driving a black Model 3 right now on a extended test drive. The car handles better than all my previous BMWs, and the interior makes more sense by the day.

Ah. Wait until you get back into your current car after driving the Model 3 for a few days. Everything will become clear then.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The i4 will be the production VisioniDynamics.
We will start to see that soon as the first prototypes are getting ready to roll out in bright blue camouflage. Yes it's As stunning as the concept.
The i4 and iNEXT will be radically different using the design language of BMWi compared to the BMWi re-invention of the iX3 and new i3.

Idk about that. They may end up being 'i' version of the 4 series platform similise to M4 to 430i for example.

Way more expensive to make i8 than i4

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

My concern with G26, is BMW has more incentive to push that car up market with premium cost over the sea of 330i and 340i. So when it is released in 2020+, without a huge infrastructure for batteries and dedicated EV production line, the price will be at a premium.

Tesla though, is already there with the Model 3 minus some quality control and customer service. I am driving a black Model 3 right now on a extended test drive. The car handles better than all my previous BMWs, and the interior makes more sense by the day.

Yes but Tesla suffers from atrocious after sales support (Most of it caused by poor quality control at the factory and the other half by overwhelmed and understaffed service centers).

Spare parts are hard to come by and stories of people losing their Teslas to their "approved" body shops for minor repair work that can take months and generate staggering repair bills.

You can find stories in the Tesla forums. The cars might look and drive great but pray that you will never have a problem or that someone runs into you.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

You can find stories in the Tesla forums. The cars might look and drive great but pray that you will never have a problem or that someone runs into you.

You can find way more of the same type stories right here on bimmerpost. Tesla is no worse. Actually, my personal experience with my local Tesla service center has been better than with the BMW dealership.