[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

A lot of misinformation and misrepresentation of the Model 3. Agree to disagree. Like I said, why would anyone complain Tesla spent too much money on the chassis resulting in the safest car available to purchase? Couple hundred pounds overweigh is no big deal imo. Car handles better than E90. You obviously are put off by Tesla somehow, and hoping someone else makes one soon. Problem is, no one else is building a competent EV from the ground up. Not anytime soon, and they will be positioned at a premium over the gas engine counter parts. Key point is "from ground up". Look at Mercedes EQC. I wouldn't count on G20 EV to compete, it never will measure up. Tesla have some of the finest engineers (as Sandy Munroe described them as Navy Seals of engineers).

I was that guy, who shrugged off any Tesla and expected BMW and Toyota to wipe out Tesla soon, until I did my homework and took a Model 3 out for a test drive. There is no comparison imo. Model 3 is not perfect for us either, but no car is.

Anyone complains about Model 3 glove box open button obviously haven't spent anytime in it because there are plenty to complain about, but glove box is a big stretch.

I am put off by mediocre results from amateur work, and I saw lots of that with Tesla Model 3. Recall, I had an open enough mind to let them have $1000 for over a year as a deposit before learning enough to become skeptical. The results of viewing production simply confirmed my concerns. I've worked my entire career in the OEM side of this vehicle manufacturing industry, so perhaps I look at these things with a different perspective than the general car-buying public.

I find no basis whatsoever to anticipate that the i4 will be inadequate. To the contrary, they will have had all this time to see Tesla's mistakes and not repeat them, even not considering that BMW actually knows how to design and assemble vehicles. Same for the Polestar divison of Volvo.

I believe the "navy seals" reference relates to the powertrain. No one disagrees about that. They currently lead the class. But, BMW and Porsche have just announced their new technology will add 90 miles of range in a 3 minute charge...sounds like solid state batteries are around the corner. Even if the current powertrain is momentarily state of the art, the problem is too much about the rest of the car it comes in.

The glovebox example was a rhetorical device and, I agree, there is much more to complain about, indeed. This was to illustrate that if they can't even design a glovebox mechanism with efficient human factors in mind, the shortcomings about the rest of the vehicle should not be surprising, even if disappointing. The rear seat package is simply poor. I needed a car for four adults...perhaps that rear seat relationship versus the floor works better for children. And, no mechanical rear door release? Absurd and dangerous post-impact.

The major difference between you and me is that I was ready to sign on the dotted line and spend, but pulled back when I saw the results developing. You are satisfied, and for that, I wish you good luck and safe travels. It's always good when someone else is happy. I hope to be equally as happy when my current 3 series lease is up and I order an i4 two years from right now.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The rear seat package is simply poor. I needed a car for four adults...perhaps that rear seat relationship versus the floor works better for children.

Rear seats were redesigned in June. Fit/finish is becoming less of an issue with each passing week. Charging cable no longer gets stuck after a software update. You really need to update your talking points.

Also, when mentioning Munro, it really helps to have seen the new conversation with him:

[openwheelracing]

- Back seat was re-deaigned long time ago, along with front seats. They are very comfortable imo and cabin is way more spacious than F30. Base F30 seats are mediocre at best.
- If you are concerned with lack of rear emergency door release, then you must be losing sleep over coupes. Also, how do you know mechanical release is more reliable than electronic release after an accident? Would you give Tesla bonus points for having both on the front doors?
- Glovebox is easy to open. That is, if you gave the car a chance.
- Fact is, Model 3 produced better results in it's segment. Acceleration, braking, handling, safety and most importantly it outsold 3 series, C class and A4 by a significant margin.

[openwheelracing]

There is a manual release for the charging port as well.

[Sportstick]

I understand that you bought/leased the Model 3, so it's natural to defend it. I sincerely hope you did get one of the good ones, and your comments do support that it is a work in progress. My original comments were directed at those who are still considering a new BEV purchase. With so many new options on the horizon, notably the Polestar Model 2 from Volvo, the i4 from BMW, the Mustang-styled crossover yet to be named from Ford, Enspire from GM using next-gen Bolt tecnhology, etc, etc, it makes the most sense to be aware of and consider all the alternatives, especially from other companies with experience and expertise at designing and assembling new vehicles. You may feel differently, but after having been on the inside of this industry and knowing a bit about how one plans facilitization for a new plant, I lost even more trust when I read about tossing up a tent in the Tesla parking lot to create more production capacity. But, I am glad you are so pleased with your car to be a vigorous advocate. I hope everyone else is so happy with whatever choice they eventually make.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Booey1979

Doubt it. Tesla has the mind share of the current cultural zeitgeist. They're flying off the floor here in socal. You see them everywhere.

I rather have a BMW EV than one produced at a factory with random outcomes and whose defects and QC snafus are overwhelming an already overload dealer and service network.

People like to idealize Tesla and Musk as the saviors of the world, yet no one talks about the ugly side of Tesla manufacturing defects, poor servicing, scarcity of parts, etc.

Watch YouTube channel Rich Rebuilds for an eye opening insight into the world of lies and deceit that Tesla ownership is all about.

[openwheelracing]

Quite the contrary, most of us don't care about Musk or saving the planet. Just engineers appreciating good engineering, car guys appreciating good driving cars. I do see a lot of negative press and hatred against Tesla and too many people with STRONG opinion rooting for Tesla to fail. Focusing on their poor customer service and "weird" buying experience.

Not sure what you mean about Rich Rebuild, he drives Teslas and is literally obsessed with rebuilding them. He is one of the best resources about these EVs.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Quite the contrary, most of us don't care about Musk or saving the planet. Just engineers appreciating good engineering, car guys appreciating good driving cars. I do see a lot of negative press and hatred against Tesla and too many people with STRONG opinion rooting for Tesla to fail. Focusing on their poor customer service and "weird" buying experience.

Not sure what you mean about Rich Rebuild, he drives Teslas and is literally obsessed with rebuilding them. He is one of the best resources about these EVs.

I definitely pick up frustration and slight anger in your post. Really, what are you doing here? Looking to preach to us ignorant fools about the Tesla gospel? In a BMW forum?

Listen, I like the concept but don't care for the execution nor the ownership and service experience of Tesla. Also have a distaste for the cultist aura that surrounds the products and Musk. Speaking for myself nothing coming out of Tesla inspires confidence as a long term purchase. Their vehicles aren't exactly sold at fire sale prices either.

If I am to spend $60K-$70K which is a lot of money for a car, I'd like to have one put together as it should with the interior quality to match. So far, I have never seen a Tesla interior to match the quality and design of a vehicle from the competition in its immediate price range.

Enjoy your model 3. Drive the snot out of it and don't make it your life mission to convert others to the goodness of Tesla. Let the product and the company do the talking and walk the walk.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Gamb1t

My wife and I are currently looking at replacing our washer/dryer. The technology in these puppies are amazing. And the power efficiency is incredible. Quiet too. Kinda reminds me of something...

Been there done that, our less than 1-month old new-age Whirlpool washer already was broken(control module fried). The repairman who fixed it said his own washer is still the old school agitator type, as his great business also tells him all these new tech is questionable.

Luckily ours is still within 90-day Costco return window, so we should be good(does Costco pick up washer from home for return?). The bad thing is our trusted 30-year old whirpool was already hauled away, so we need to figure out where to buy the old tech again ....

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Quite the contrary, most of us don't care about Musk or saving the planet. Just engineers appreciating good engineering, car guys appreciating good driving cars. I do see a lot of negative press and hatred against Tesla and too many people with STRONG opinion rooting for Tesla to fail. Focusing on their poor customer service and "weird" buying experience.

Model 3 and Tesla in general are not well built cars, as Tesla the company builds on SV techs like OTA updates, auto pilots, FSD, but ignores fundamentals like body-in-white and quality. With the backbone is not built right none of the flashy tech can solve that.

E.g. as your post said Model 3 is few hundred pounds overweight(say, 300?).

Fom an engineering perspective how can that be good, given that extra 300 pounds slow down the car?

And how does building a simple wheel well with 8-9 pieces welded together (instead of one piece as other automakers do) help with weight and strength?

Most engineer friends are turned off by those details, but my guess is the car enthusiasts are so mesmerized by instant torques that basic engineering sense is left behind.

[530iDriver]

[openwheelracing]

So it’s just the distaste of Musk and the “cult”. Gotcha. Enjoy your Tesla fail videos. I enjoy my German automotive engineering alongside American EV.

After owning countless BMWs and four EDs flying on the autobahn, I never fully understood why people hate Bimmers. I have a better understanding now. I have been around here long enough to know there is no changing anyone’s mind, but sometimes a productive discussion is possible. I thought the misinformation needed to be cleared up about Tesla, but some just don’t want to have it.

[530iDriver]

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Model 3 and Tesla in general are not well built cars, as Tesla the company builds on SV techs like OTA updates, auto pilots, FSD, but ignores fundamentals like body-in-white and quality. With the backbone is not built right none of the flashy tech can solve that.

E.g. as your post said Model 3 is few hundred pounds overweight(say, 300?).

Fom an engineering perspective how can that be good, given that extra 300 pounds slow down the car?

And how does building a simple wheel well with 8-9 pieces welded together (instead of one piece as other automakers do) help with weight and strength?

Most engineer friends are turned off by those details, but my guess is the car enthusiasts are so mesmerized by instant torques that basic engineering sense is left behind.

I will engage about this detail. Safety, crash test, chassis rigidity and battery protection.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

I will engage about this detail. Safety, crash test, chassis rigidity and battery protection.

OK, let's go on a bit. I don't know who here is actually an engineer or not, but I can share a lesson (with regard to excess weight/material mass) from some senior engineers when I was early in my career at a OEM vehicle manufacturer. It went something like this...."A great engineer doesn't regard the glass as half full, nor half empty. A great engineer simply points out the glass was twice the size it needed to be."

Strategic mass can indeed improve safety outcomes and vehicles of different mass above 500lbs of difference can tilt the advantage to the heavier vehicle. Unintended overweight is quite different. The program had a weight and impact management objective. The fact that the car came in overweight is not necessarily to its benefit, depending on where that weight exists. It may be positive, negative, or have no effect on NCAP or EuroNCAP.

Also, rigidity is not a quality where "more is better". Rigidity needs to be tuned with the crash pulse of the vehicle to manage the dissipation of energy before it is transferred into the occupant's body. An overly rigid platform/body-in-white will transmit the energy to the passenger compartment at potentially harmful amounts if not properly managed.

It is my understanding that Tesla has done well in impact tests. It may have done even better (Lower Chest Gs femur loads, lower HIC values, etc.) if it had been within the original weight parameters, and then also benefitted from improved range, performance, and handling.

[openwheelracing]

How do you know Model 3 "came in overweight" from it's original objective? "Overweight" is perhaps a bit misleading.

If Usain Bolt outruns Carl Lewis, but Bolt weighs more, is Usain Bolt "overweight"?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Couple hundred pounds overweigh is no big deal imo.

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

How do you know Model 3 "came in overweight" from it's original objective? "Overweight" is perhaps a bit misleading.

In this case, I was relying on you.


EDIT: And he agrees too...

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/23...ies-for-tesla/

A good one is great to drive and it did well on NCAP, no doubt. The article is about missed opportunities due to being amateurs. It could well have accomplished the same scores with weight efficiency. We'll never know.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I understand that you bought/leased the Model 3, so it's natural to defend it. I sincerely hope you did get one of the good ones, and your comments do support that it is a work in progress. My original comments were directed at those who are still considering a new BEV purchase. With so many new options on the horizon, notably the Polestar Model 2 from Volvo, the i4 from BMW, the Mustang-styled crossover yet to be named from Ford, Enspire from GM using next-gen Bolt tecnhology, etc, etc, it makes the most sense to be aware of and consider all the alternatives, especially from other companies with experience and expertise at designing and assembling new vehicles. You may feel differently, but after having been on the inside of this industry and knowing a bit about how one plans facilitization for a new plant, I lost even more trust when I read about tossing up a tent in the Tesla parking lot to create more production capacity. But, I am glad you are so pleased with your car to be a vigorous advocate. I hope everyone else is so happy with whatever choice they eventually make.

Given the fact that you made the opposite choice, it would only be logical to suggest that your arguments against the Tesla are being made on the same psychological basis, as your attempt to confirm for yourself that your choice was correct.

The keyword in your list of future competitors to the Model 3 is "horizon". As in "at least two, most likely three or more years away". But people are buying, driving, and overwhelmingly enjoying Model 3s today.

[530iDriver]

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Quite the contrary, most of us don't care about Musk or saving the planet. Just engineers appreciating good engineering, car guys appreciating good driving cars.

Please speak for yourself. I actually like this planet.

Especially considering no one has found an accessible alternative yet.

[stein_325i]

One thing I noticed when sitting in one is that both front doors have emergency pulls (in case the electrics go out), but neither rear doors have one. Is this cost cutting? Seems like it could really be dangerous in a crash.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Most engineer friends are turned off by those details, but my guess is the car enthusiasts are so mesmerized by instant torques that basic engineering sense is left behind.

How do Tesla owners dare to enjoy the amazing dynamics of their cars if the blueprints are so unpretty, right?

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

One thing I noticed when sitting in one is that both front doors have emergency pulls (in case the electrics go out), but neither rear doors have one. Is this cost cutting? Seems like it could really be dangerous in a crash.

Already discussed above. This is no worse than any 2-door coupe.