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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions G20 3 Series vs Tesla Model 3

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      01-13-2019, 05:21 PM   #133
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Not merely overweight over it's competitiin. The question is: How do you know Model 3 "came in overweight" from it's original objective? It's a key element in your argument which appears to be a convenient assumption. I am not able to answer the question because I was not on the design team.

Sandy Munroe is looking at it from manufacturing cost saving POV. Is it a missed opportunity? I agree we will never know. I am not Elon Musk, nor am I a shareholder. I am just a buyer who appreciates a car being safer and dynamically better than it's competition. The Model 3 delivers in 2018. That is important. Will the i4 be better in 2022 and possibly after? I hope so.
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      01-13-2019, 05:27 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
One thing I noticed when sitting in one is that both front doors have emergency pulls (in case the electrics go out), but neither rear doors have one. Is this cost cutting? Seems like it could really be dangerous in a crash.
Already discussed above. This is no worse than any 2-door coupe.
I don't want to get into the whole argument here, but that's just objectively silly.

"Oh your rear doors on your 4dr have a possibility of not opening in an emergency? Well, if you had a 2-door coupé you wouldn't even have rear doors."

Seriously?
In a 2-door coupé you obviously don't expect the rear doors to open (seeing as there are none). Quite a different case to be made when you have 4-doors though, now isn't it?
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      01-13-2019, 05:35 PM   #135
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Don't forget a traditional interior door handle is not guaranteed to be working after a crash. Obviously it depends on the impact but an argument can be made that the emergency latch is better in the Model 3. I don't know for sure, but it really depends on how it is designed mechanically. I think the possibilities are endless in this debate.

If I remember correctly, some BMWs rear seats don't even fold down.
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      01-13-2019, 05:35 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Given the fact that you made the opposite choice, it would only be logical to suggest that your arguments against the Tesla are being made on the same psychological basis, as your attempt to confirm for yourself that your choice was correct.

The keyword in your list of future competitors to the Model 3 is "horizon". As in "at least two, most likely three or more years away". But people are buying, driving, and overwhelmingly enjoying Model 3s today.
It is difficult to distinguish a dispassionate examination of evidence from the human condition of bias and cognitive dissonance. All I can say is that I gave them my deposit money and I dismissed other alernatives for about a year. But, as I learned more after the first year of waiting, and started to see results, both online and in-person, demonstrating that I was committed enough to spend much time evaluating (I even had picked colors and wheel treatments), I found the reality of Model 3 below my expectations and went through the process of getting a refund. I guess others can assess my motivations through that process as they wish.

I took a 3 year BMW lease to replace the anticipated Model 3. I'm out until January 2021. Others may have a variety of commitments and time horizons of their own for them to best determine. The Ford and Polestar models are much closer to launch. The point remains, choices are coming, from much more experienced and competent producers, and some may find that worth waiting for. If you're already in with Tesla, and having a good experience, which their forum shows is far from uniform, more power to you!
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      01-13-2019, 05:39 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Not merely overweight over it's competitiin. The question is: How do you know Model 3 "came in overweight" from it's original objective? It's a key element in your argument which appears to be a convenient assumption. I am not able to answer the question because I was not on the design team.
You are right. I don't know the original objective. They could have set it high to provide "breathing room". But, hard to pass up on your original quote though! But, the overweight assessment is actually versus modern manufacturing best practices for body-in-white. Waste is not hard to see in a tear-down. I recall when my prior employer used the current Tesla technique in the early 90s and with similar results, plus eventual issues with all the small pieces welded producing BSRs as the vehicles aged.
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      01-13-2019, 05:48 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
So this video is actually pretty amazing, in the sense that it might seem like a knock against Tesla on the surface but in reality it's just another confirmation they're doing something right.

For those who don't want to waste 12 minutes of their time to watch it, a recap:
- Car doesn't go into drive mode, a reset helps.
- Then it refuses to run no matter what, with a bunch of errors on the screen. It's towed to the service center, where some parts are replaced, based on the most literal interpretation of the errors.
- Several weeks later the issue reoccurs; this time the service center has a different diagnosis, replacing a different part. While this is happening, the owner driives a Ghibli loaner.
- After a few more weeks the same thing happens again. The car goes to the same service center.
- The service rep calls back two hours later and says her manager is asking how he can make the customer feel better about the situation, offering to take him to a dinner or give any Tesla shop stuff as freebies. The car owner decides the newly available key fob would make sense, though he could clearly ask for way more stuff.
- The next day the rep calls the owner again and says the car is fixed. She explains that this was an extremely rare issue, which is why it stumped them at first, but right at that time they hosted a regional meeting of service managers where the car was mentioned and one of the attendees said he did encounter the problem before: an improperly tightened grounding bolt.

Here's how I see this: The car had a rare, previously not documented problem. Tesla service center did its best to fix the car and keep the owner happy in the meantime, willing to spend $100s on it as a goodwill gesture. Tesla has a program that helps service managers share their experience and improve the quality of the service. The car is now fine, and the owner is happy.

Having plenty of experience with BMW dealerships, I can say that this is at least on par if not better than what a BMW owner can expect.
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      01-14-2019, 12:46 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
How do Tesla owners dare to enjoy the amazing dynamics of their cars if the blueprints are so unpretty, right?
Some food for thought, just imagine how much better it could have been had the blueprints been done right in the first place.

Accepting "good enough with respect to current competitors" is a race to the bottom, for sure that is unbecoming of any enthusiast(of any make) that demands perfection, right?
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      01-14-2019, 05:35 AM   #140
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For some, Tesla's blue print will never be right. No matter what the result is, it will never be good enough. It's either Elon Musk, or the "cult", or both leaving a distaste. Possibly envy imo, similar to those hating on BMW drivers.

The leader of the pack is not good enough? They should have done better is the only argument, then they've lost the argument.
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      01-14-2019, 07:46 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
For some, Tesla's blue print will never be right. No matter what the result is, it will never be good enough. It's either Elon Musk, or the "cult", or both leaving a distaste. Possibly envy imo, similar to those hating on BMW drivers.

The leader of the pack is not good enough? They should have done better is the only argument, then they've lost the argument.
And for some others, me included, I'll close (again) with this:

I don't care about Elon
I don't care about the "cult"
I don't care who is first (I don't have a Nokia phone)
I don't care who sells the most (I don't eat at McDonald's)
I only care about the product's overall performance/capability and it's reliability. An outstanding powertrain in an otherwise mediocre vehicle with questionable quality wasn't good enough overall for my purchase. We had a maxim at my prior company. "The customer is not the final development engineer." I still believe that. I can be patient. "All things come to he who waits."
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Last edited by Sportstick; 01-14-2019 at 10:46 AM..
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      01-14-2019, 10:18 AM   #142
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      01-14-2019, 12:04 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
I only care about the product's overall performance/capability and it's reliability. An outstanding powertrain in an otherwise mediocre vehicle with questionable quality wasn't good enough overall for my purchase. We had a maxim at my prior company. "The customer is not the final development engineer." I still believe that. I can be patient. "All things come to he who waits."
Agreed, the singular focus should be on the product itself, not the rhetoric around it.

It does appear some Tesla owners resort to fear and uncertainty(e.g. $3750 price hike after Jan 1), plus incentive distortion, to vilify others(and Tesla owners complaining on Tesla forums also meet the same treatment).

Clear headed consumers usually can see through those tactics and focus on the right attributes to evaluate if any manufacturer is worthy of our hard earned money. Luckily my coworkers are ones of those clear headed consumers and strongly encourage me to wait at least for G20 launch, and they are correct!
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      01-14-2019, 01:38 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
And for some others, me included, I'll close (again) with this:

I don't care about Elon
I don't care about the "cult"
I don't care who is first (I don't have a Nokia phone)
I don't care who sells the most (I don't eat at McDonald's)
I only care about the product's overall performance/capability and it's reliability. An outstanding powertrain in an otherwise mediocre vehicle with questionable quality wasn't good enough overall for my purchase. We had a maxim at my prior company. "The customer is not the final development engineer." I still believe that. I can be patient. "All things come to he who waits."
i think this is the "only" way to buy cars, you shouldn't be looking at anything else other than the car's own specs. only reason i bought mine is because in my mind i can justify the compromise in build quality with the torque and autopilot. a lot of others won't and that's okay, different priorities and all

i'm by no means loyal to tesla and will switch as soon as a competitor offers a better product.
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      01-14-2019, 03:06 PM   #145
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I'm sure the Tesla is fine. However it is not an aspirational vehicle for me and not even in the running. This will be different for others. And ten years from now, we might all be driving electrics with no sound, so I'm going to get that straight six now if I can.
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      01-14-2019, 06:50 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Given the fact that you made the opposite choice, it would only be logical to suggest that your arguments against the Tesla are being made on the same psychological basis, as your attempt to confirm for yourself that your choice was correct.

The keyword in your list of future competitors to the Model 3 is "horizon". As in "at least two, most likely three or more years away". But people are buying, driving, and overwhelmingly enjoying Model 3s today.
It is difficult to distinguish a dispassionate examination of evidence from the human condition of bias and cognitive dissonance. All I can say is that I gave them my deposit money and I dismissed other alernatives for about a year. But, as I learned more after the first year of waiting, and started to see results, both online and in-person, demonstrating that I was committed enough to spend much time evaluating (I even had picked colors and wheel treatments), I found the reality of Model 3 below my expectations and went through the process of getting a refund. I guess others can assess my motivations through that process as they wish.

I took a 3 year BMW lease to replace the anticipated Model 3. I'm out until January 2021. Others may have a variety of commitments and time horizons of their own for them to best determine. The Ford and Polestar models are much closer to launch. The point remains, choices are coming, from much more experienced and competent producers, and some may find that worth waiting for. If you're already in with Tesla, and having a good experience, which their forum shows is far from uniform, more power to you!
Could not agree more about more choices on the horizon, especially from BMW.
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      01-14-2019, 07:31 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Don't forget a traditional interior door handle is not guaranteed to be working after a crash. Obviously it depends on the impact but an argument can be made that the emergency latch is better in the Model 3. I don't know for sure, but it really depends on how it is designed mechanically. I think the possibilities are endless in this debate.

If I remember correctly, some BMWs rear seats don't even fold down.
Wouldn't an emergency latch just be equivalent to a traditional door handle, as its mechanical, just like the handle rather than electronic? The point still is, that the rear seats don't have any sort of emergency handle, so that if the doors could open, but the power is out, there would be no way to get out of the back, you would have to crawl through the front, but depending on the situation, that may be difficult.
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      01-14-2019, 09:43 PM   #148
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My understanding is the Model 3 is designed differently, they advise you to only use the emergency latch for emergency only and no rregularly. The car even notifies you on the screen. I don't know how it is designed a actually.

Like I said the possibilities are endless. One can argue F30 without folding rear seat is a hazard. One may argue having both electronic and mechanical on the front door is an advantage. One can argue Model 3 owner having the conversation with their kids about the front door emergency latch may save lives. I personally don't see it as a hazard. I would rather have the standard safety features and safer.chassis. YMMV.

Last edited by openwheelracing; 01-14-2019 at 09:53 PM..
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      01-15-2019, 05:26 AM   #149
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If your rear seats don't fold in an f30 keep a ratchet handy to remove the bolts so you can remove the seats to get to the trunk in an emergency or one of those automotive glass shattering hammers.
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      01-15-2019, 08:51 AM   #150
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I agree, everyone should have a little glass shattering hammer inside the car.
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      01-15-2019, 12:18 PM   #151
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FYI, F30 fold down seats can be unlocked(with ingenuity) from cabin. Once inside trunk, one can exit by pulling emergency trunk open handle. Been there, done that.

Does Model 3 trunk have a manual emergency release? If so one can fold down rear seat(no lock on Model 3), then exit through the trunk.

Last edited by bavarianride; 01-15-2019 at 12:24 PM..
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      01-15-2019, 12:25 PM   #152
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Check out this comparo M2C vs Tesla non performance dual motor

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      01-15-2019, 12:29 PM   #153
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Check out this comparo M2C vs Tesla non performance dual motor

When I look at the Model 3 I fail to see $60K-$70K worth of car there. I know the instant torque is addictive but to me a car is much more than the sum of its parts. This is yet one other area where Tesla fails to grasp me enough to open my wallet.
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      01-15-2019, 01:49 PM   #154
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The reality about any Model 3 to BMW ICE engine at this point is that the cost of the Tesla is largely in the battery. Tesla has made a very good car with a good interior but if you're looking for $50k worth of doodads in the interior to justify the luxury price tag, that's where it's going to come up lacking a bit. That said, it's a good interior.
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