[Mavus]

Originally Posted by MT4life

Drove next to one to work today. Looks like a travel soap dish/holder thingy.
Where is the flair, aggressiveness, testosterone?
Looks like a gender fluid "I'm a pu*sy don't bully me, you post a bad comment on FB and I'll kill myself" mobile. Yuck.

You know, try to shake one off of your rear end on the road ... not that easy.

Tesla's aggressiveness is in engineering. Just check out wind tunnel tests and Cd to understand exterior design. Give credit where it's due.

Also, the latest bmw models are not much to look at either. The G20 exterior design is very soft and bloated. 1-2 series are fwd with soft design and are designed to cost and mass market appeal, just like Corolla. Shall I continue?

It is very difficult to design a vehicle that appeals to a wide spectrum of customers and survive as a company while developing new technology and fight stealerships at the same time. Have you developed and successfully marketed, and sold anything?

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

You know, try to shake one off of your rear end on the road ... not that easy.

Tesla's aggressiveness is in engineering. Just check out wind tunnel tests and Cd to understand exterior design. Give credit where it's due.

Also, the latest bmw models are not much to look at either. The G20 exterior design is very soft and bloated. 1-2 series are fwd with soft design and are designed to cost and mass market appeal, just like Corolla. Shall I continue?

It is very difficult to design a vehicle that appeals to a wide spectrum of customers and survive as a company while developing new technology and fight stealerships at the same time. Have you developed and successfully marketed, and sold anything?

The problem is that the Model 3, as the rest of the Tesla models, are made in a factory that produces random outcomes. Vehicles that are plagued with quality, design and manufacturing defects. This in turn overwhelms an already overtaxed dealer network.

People forking over thousands for the privilege and cool factor associated with Tesla, need to understand what they are getting themselves into.

[bavarianride]

Just read that PG&E may increase electricity rate by 5x to pay for additional workers to implement vegetation work tentatively mandated by federal court. If that materializes it can put a dumper on EV growth in CA.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

The problem is that the Model 3, as the rest of the Tesla models, are made in a factory that produces random outcomes. Vehicles that are plagued with quality, design and manufacturing defects. This in turn overwhelms an already overtaxed dealer network.

Please update your talking points. The ones from early 2018 don't really work anymore.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Please update your talking points. The ones from early 2018 don't really work anymore.

Show me data or stats that prove otherwise... and not from Tesla or Tesla fanboy sites...

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Show me data or stats that prove otherwise... and not from Tesla or Tesla fanboy sites...

You got it backwards: you're making an argument, you should be ready to support it with facts.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

You know, try to shake one off of your rear end on the road ... not that easy.

Tesla's aggressiveness is in engineering. Just check out wind tunnel tests and Cd to understand exterior design. Give credit where it's due.

Also, the latest bmw models are not much to look at either. The G20 exterior design is very soft and bloated. 1-2 series are fwd with soft design and are designed to cost and mass market appeal, just like Corolla. Shall I continue?

It is very difficult to design a vehicle that appeals to a wide spectrum of customers and survive as a company while developing new technology and fight stealerships at the same time. Have you developed and successfully marketed, and sold anything?

How could I compete with a Trolleybus? He just goes as long as there's juice

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

You got it backwards: you're making an argument, you should be ready to support it with facts.

Ok fair enough:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...nkings-2018-10

https://autoweek.com/article/green-c...ssembly-issues

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Ok fair enough:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...nkings-2018-10

https://autoweek.com/article/green-c...ssembly-issues

The CR ratings in Oct 2018 probably do not account for latest improvement in build quality from Tesla factory.

At the same time, QC issues are easier to fix than fundamentals, e.g. it is unclear if issues like subpar assembly(e.g. missing welds) and chassis issues(e.g. multiple pieces to construct wheel wells) are fixed or not.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Ok fair enough:

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...nkings-2018-10

You rushed with this one, should have read it first:

The Model 3 sedan, Tesla's newest vehicle, was the automaker's most reliable vehicle, according to Consumer Reports, which said it had "average" reliability.

https://autoweek.com/article/green-c...ssembly-issues

And this one is exactly what I suggested was no longer relevant: a report from early 2018.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

At the same time, QC issues are easier to fix than fundamentals, e.g. it is unclear if issues like subpar assembly(e.g. missing welds) and chassis issues(e.g. multiple pieces to construct wheel wells) are fixed or not.

One of the weirdest things in this thread is that Tesla opponents here keep hammering on the same issues that simply don't exist anymore, while at the same time there are still other, potentially more serious problems, which no one mentions because they require diving slightly deeper into the subject.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

The problem is that the Model 3, as the rest of the Tesla models, are made in a factory that produces random outcomes. Vehicles that are plagued with quality, design and manufacturing defects. This in turn overwhelms an already overtaxed dealer network.

People forking over thousands for the privilege and cool factor associated with Tesla, need to understand what they are getting themselves into.

Every time when you develop a new product you will have teething problems. In this case they are improving manufacturing and design at the same time while fighting oil cartel and stealerships. Do you have any idea how complex that is at such a large scale!? Any company has these types of issues and Tesla is very young. Give them some time.

They have to put the product on the market as soon as possible to generate revenue and then fix things here and there. Every car maker does this. S/W companies do it all the time. Look at the N54 nightmare when 335 came out. Ford has been building cars for a century and they have the same issues.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

One of the weirdest things in this thread is that Tesla opponents here keep hammering on the same issues that simply don't exist anymore, while at the same time there are still other, potentially more serious problems, which no one mentions because they require diving slightly deeper into the subject.

One thing that puzzles me is the lack of communication of battery fires.

Is it all OK with the latest shipped products, or battery makers plus the EV industry(Telsa and everyone else pushing BEV) are clueless how to fix it and just hope stats are on their side.

[Michdeac25]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

One of the weirdest things in this thread is that Tesla opponents here keep hammering on the same issues that simply don't exist anymore, while at the same time there are still other, potentially more serious problems, which no one mentions because they require diving slightly deeper into the subject.

I'm actively researching Tesla 3s versus BMW 330e and am unaware of what these serious problems are. Would like information though.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Michdeac25

I'm actively researching Tesla 3s versus BMW 330e and am unaware of what these serious problems are. Would like information though.

I had a Tesla deposit for more than a year, and canceled as I learned more. Now that I see this, I am more than happy to be a bit more patient while my current lease runs out...

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/01/fi...tesla-model-3/

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I had a Tesla deposit for more than a year, and canceled as I learned more. Now that I see this, I am more than happy to be a bit more patient while my current lease runs out...

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/01/fi...tesla-model-3/

There was quite a bit of fear, uncertainty and distortion around Model 3 when the fed credits counted down to 50% in December, and some Tesla owners ran online political campaigns against anyone that question their purchase decisions with the vigor of championing sustainable energy and climate change(it won't surprise me if their daytime jobs are in those areas).

Without a timed event, say, a lease end, and/or current car dying, it seemed reasonable to wait(including Model 3 reservation holder aiming for base car).

My take is that as Model 3 in US starts to level off, the discounts off current prices will continue, e.g. my guess is by the time base Modle 3 rolls off, it can be less than $35k MSRP to equalize loss of fed credits.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My take is that as Model 3 in US starts to level off, the discounts off current prices will continue, e.g. my guess is by the time base Modle 3 rolls off, it can be less than $35k MSRP to equalize loss of fed credits.

There's no real reason for Tesla to do that until someone else offers a comparable car in the same mid-$30K range. Of course, there's still the question of what a non-Premium Model 3 will look like, but unless it gets seriously decontented it's still going to be price competitive even at $35K with no incentives.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

There's no real reason for Tesla to do that until someone else offers a comparable car in the same mid-$30K range. Of course, there's still the question of what a non-Premium Model 3 will look like, but unless it gets seriously decontented it's still going to be price competitive even at $35K with no incentives.

At the $30k price point, non-premium base Model 3's competition will be the new Leaf with 200-mile range@$36k MSRP before incentives, or down to $26k with fed + CA incentives around our locales.

At $9k savings the pendulum can swing in favor of Leaf if Tesla chooses to stick with $35k with $0 incentives.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

At the $30k price point, non-premium base Model 3's competition will be the new Leaf with 200-mile range@$36k MSRP before incentives, or down to $26k with fed + CA incentives around our locales.

GM is also losing the fed incentives, trailing Tesla's by one quarter.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

GM is also losing the fed incentives, trailing Tesla's by one quarter.

Yes GM should face 50% drop in fed credit in Q2 this year, Nissan still has around 80k VINs to burn.

GM should drop prices on their EVs too once the fed credit starts to phase out.

https://insideevs.com/top-6-automake...-credit-limit/

[vladmury]

I don't understand why so much hate on Tesla Model 3? Look is subjective, its not that aggressive compared with a BMW but has anyone drove one before jumping to conclusions?

The base price in Denmark for a 320d G20 is same as a new Tesla 3 long range. So no chance for BMW to compete at that price level.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by vladmury

I don't understand why so much hate on Tesla Model 3? Look is subjective, its not that aggressive compared with a BMW but has anyone drove one before jumping to conclusions?

The base price in Denmark for a 320d G20 is same as a new Tesla 3 long range. So no chance for BMW to compete at that price level.

Is G20 320d pricing in Denmark skewed by government EV incentives and excessive tax on ICEs? Also is Denmark government planning to eliminate EV tax breaks by 2020?