View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT? | |||
I prefer a DCT. | 235 | 60.57% | |
I prefer a traditional AT. | 32 | 8.25% | |
Either is fine with me. | 53 | 13.66% | |
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. | 68 | 17.53% | |
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll |
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12-03-2019, 03:39 AM | #243 | |
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96+ E36 M3s were offered with 321hp, making 100hp per liter with a naturally aspirated engine which was first from BMW and only rivaled by Ferrari back in the day. You look at E92 M3/E60 M5 with F1 inspired V10/V8 engines, they were compared to Porsche and Ferrari of the time in terms of driving dynamics and engagement. I didn't feel the particular need to get a Porsche years ago and have never looked at AMG or RS variants. All these M cars were only offered with an automated manual (including DCT) or MT. Now BMW M just does a bare minimum to keep their relative advantage in the segment (i.e. vs AMG,RS). If BMW M cannot offer what it used to offer- uncompromising driving pleasure and performance- I will unfortunately have to move onto a flat six with PDK.
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12-03-2019, 10:03 AM | #244 |
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If BMW can justify that the 8AT is quicker shifting and lighter than a DCT then fair enough, otherwise it's a cost decision. M3/ M4 cars (well, previous gen cars, don't know about the G80) are lighter than the competition. Doesn't seem to be true for the X series M's though.
Don't know what will differentiate the G80/ G82 (apart from the grille) engineering wise. The days of ///M management and engineers having a laugh about the competition are long gone - equivalent AMG and RS models are excellent choices for anyone. |
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12-03-2019, 10:54 AM | #245 | |
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12-03-2019, 12:44 PM | #246 | ||||||
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And with the GT500 and C8 going DCT it's a shame BMW M is moving away from it. I still believe the ZF makes sense in the M5 with is luxury attributes. But M2/M3, any CS variant should keep a DCT. I haven't driven the Alfa yet. |
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12-03-2019, 12:57 PM | #247 |
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Drive the M5 during a launch event on track and it was really quite linear and very comfortable - a little boring actually. So I totally agree that a standard automatic suits this large sedan quite nicely.
No doubt the new M3 will sell on BHP and 0-60 numbers alone and in large quantities. But no way the enthusiast segment will jump on this. That may not mean anything to BMW though and I accept that. There are too many options in this segment which offer an overall better package if the M3/4 offers a similar driving experience to them. I'm still hopeful the CS or CSL variant might continue with a DCT. Time will tell. If I can find an M4 GTS pop up I'll be jumping on that and keeping it long term to replace my CS. The CS and GTS were absolute perfection on this platform (with the exception that the GTS should have been named the CSL lol). The last of a dying breed of car. |
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12-04-2019, 12:51 PM | #248 | |
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I put 20K +miles on my M4 and M5 with DCT so I have a very good idea of how those transmissions function. I have owned all of them, not just a simple 10 minute test drive. Just because you drove an X3M doesn't mean that it will have any relation to the G8x. Software is everything now and any sort of feel, shift speed, reaction times, etc can and will be tuned based on the target buyer. Your comment that I am "OK with the heavy GT muscle car thing" assumes that I want a German Camaro, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I value lightweight cars and some of my favorites were my '85 911, e90 M3 and current Civic Type R. Your thinking that the current or future M3/4 is some sort of lightweight performance vehicle is way off the mark. Any current M car is very far removed as a driving experience compared to something truly light weight and simple. Go drive a 996/997 GT3 compared to a 997.2 GT3, it is a night a day experience regarding involvement, feedback, etc. Unfortunately it is endemic in vehicles across the industry. |
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12-04-2019, 08:27 PM | #249 | ||
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12-07-2019, 07:21 AM | #250 | |
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"I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge." Isn't the whole point of an M car that you can spend a day at the track and stop at the grocery store on the way home?
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12-07-2019, 08:23 AM | #251 | ||
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The whole M division(for street) was founded on E30 M3. The car is undoubtedly a historic halo car of the BMW M. Quote:
I don't have a direct experience with DCT but my friends who track them with E9x/F8x platform rarely reports any issue with the transmission. I myself run 6MT and this platform by far has been the most reliable. The ZF in M235i on the other hand had several issues (rod bearing failure due to oil starvation, transmission getting too hot refusing to shift) when tracked. People often mention M235i racing transmission as comparison but that one has the torque converter removed in order to save weight so it is not the same transmission the street version gets. Also note that M240i racing is now being replaced by M2 CS racing. If the transmission was so good and "reliable" we'd see more of them racing but they just are not.
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12-07-2019, 11:48 AM | #252 | |||
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If they removed the torque converter, changed the ratios so that a gear change actually made a noticeable difference, and fixed the lag then it's possible that it would be just fine. If so, I want *this* version on my the G8x. Has anybody actually driven one of these variants? Or heard feedback on how they drove? (not very reassuring that they replaced it with an M2CS - with DCT) Update: This page suggests that the comment on the GT3 thread was BS. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...tomer-racecar/ Quote:
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12-09-2019, 05:50 AM | #253 | |
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Check this link out.
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12-09-2019, 10:57 AM | #254 | |
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They explicitly mention addressing a lot of the issues that many of us have with the ZF8 in existing BMW cars (i.e. not downshifting at high speeds). The video states that they removed the torque converter. (probably a bit clunky setting off from a standing start!) It mentions making the ratios *closer* -- so all the gears are useful on a track (probably shoots the fuel efficiency numbers ;-) With 8 closely spaced ratios, it's unclear whether they are still expecting the driver to do the shifting- you'd need to do several rapid downshifts going into many corners at the tracks I drive. The video doesn't show anybody using the paddles. It does have a driver claiming that he "wouldn't have known it was a automatic" and was pleasantly surprised. (they obviously wouldn't interview a driver who said anything else though) What did he think he was driving? (a sequential manual?) The web page also mentions the Porsche PDK gearbox, and a racing version for the Cayman. It's not clear to me how this is related to the BMW 235iR box. Are they implying that they also make the PDK? Are they suggesting it's the same? Is it all a matter of software? Anyway ... it's clear you can make a better ZF8 ... but is this really what they will put in the G8x ? |
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12-09-2019, 11:19 AM | #255 | |
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12-09-2019, 02:15 PM | #256 | |
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Then I'm with the M8 reviewer in post #215
Starting at time 4:20 in the video Quote:
Last edited by pbar; 12-09-2019 at 02:23 PM.. |
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12-10-2019, 12:01 PM | #257 | |
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I don’t see the reason they would use ZF8 TC auto for G8x if it is “as clunky” as M235 racing. They’d just put the latest, fastest iteration of DCT back in. Towards the end of the video, the racer also mentions “he could use faster shifts”, implying that even with all the modifications, it probably isn’t up to typical motorsport standards.
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12-23-2019, 11:15 AM | #258 |
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I think I figured out part of the differences in opinion here. The ZF8 is adaptive in its reaction times. If I shift during normal driving the transmission takes longer to react and the shift does not complete for as much as a 1/4 second. During full throttle situations is reacts faster and the complete shift occurs before the shifter/paddle returns to the neutral position.
One other important piece is to differentiate between reaction time and shift times. Shift times are very quick with the ZF8, but the reaction times can be slow or fast depending on the situation. Either way the ZF is not a visceral as the DCT due to both programming (designed for near zero break in TQ application) and the mechanical nature of DCT. This is disappearing from almost every vehicle in every input (steering, shifting, brakes, throttle, ride quality). It is not unique to the M3 or even BMW. |
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12-23-2019, 01:31 PM | #259 | |||
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12-23-2019, 01:31 PM | #260 | |
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12-23-2019, 01:31 PM | #261 |
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My M4 has a DCT and I also own cars with the ZF8.
They are both excellent transmissions and shift quickly and smoothly. As I have posted before I spoke to Will Turner and other Turner Motorsports drivers when they were shaking out the M235 Factory Racer at Lime Rock. They were very impressed with the ZF8 transmission in that car. |
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01-10-2020, 03:49 AM | #262 | |
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Rev hang for upshifts in manual mode is terrible and downshifts are not as aggressive or direct as DCT. We’ve also discussed few posts ago that M235 Racing transmission is in fact different from the production vehicle. It also doesn’t change the fact that rpm limit is very low compared to clutch driven transmissions which may be why they are phasing our M235/M240 racing with M2 CS racing. Refer to the link below: https://www.sachsperformance.com/en/...-8hp45-from-zf |
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01-14-2020, 02:32 PM | #263 | |
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02-04-2020, 03:56 PM | #264 |
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i've owned the 335is dct and f80 m3 dct- they are worlds better than zf8 especially on downshifts. find a steep hill and go down it in 2nd gear then downshift - the zf8 will pause for 1-2 seconds whilst the dct will immediately shift and engine brake..
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