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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) i4, i430, i440 (G26) EV Forum I hope the i4 can compete with Tesla and Polestar

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      09-03-2020, 11:15 AM   #23
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Itís great to have choices, no?

Putting all the controls on the touch screen makes OTA updates/improvements much easier. My car has received lots of new features in the ~2 years Iíve owned it, including about 50 extra horsepower!

A friendís MB C300 4Matic doesnít have a power trunk lid either...

FWIW, the audio volume is controlled by the left steering wheel scroll wheel by default. Iíve never used the touch-screen volume control while driving, but did use it while a passenger - itís great to have such easy access from that side.

The infinitely configurable HVAC vent are genius, IMO. I can direct the air exactly where I want it and as a result, I spend far less time fiddling with those controls than in any other car Iíve owned in 40+ years of driving.

Enjoy the BMW - really nice car!
Exactly! Choices are good!

Tesla has become a remarkable line of vehicles in a short period of time. Some really cool features and wild performance. However, they need a refresh on the Model S.

Musk has yet to really be challenged, but the Germans appear to be coming after him. Porsche, Audi, and now BMW, are building some cool stuff. And next week the intro of the new U.S. built Lucid Air. Good competition will benefit the entire EV market and force Tesla to step up its game.
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      09-15-2020, 04:05 PM   #24
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I do also. ......

There are a couple of things regarding any of the Tesla competitors that are important to me. Range and battery life....


Time will tell...........................

The other aspect is the availability of service and parts....from what I read, Tesla is abysmal when it comes to parts...worked at an authorized Tesla collision center....longest wait for parts. I've also read that supposedly, Volvo dealers will be able to service Polestar vehicles...I live a LONG way from either LA or NYC..where Polestar 2 test drives are currently available....
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      09-17-2020, 09:28 AM   #25
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The other aspect is the availability of service and parts....from what I read, Tesla is abysmal when it comes to parts...worked at an authorized Tesla collision center....longest wait for parts. I've also read that supposedly, Volvo dealers will be able to service Polestar vehicles...I live a LONG way from either LA or NYC..where Polestar 2 test drives are currently available....
Agreed. While I don't normally base my buying decisions on collisions and repairs, not having a service center reasonably close is a consideration. Fortunately, EV's do not require the same level of maintenance as an ICE car, Getting initial flaws fixed (which Tesla has been known for) is a consideration.

Tesla's QC has been improving, and the OTA updates are a nice feature. Having a drive-in service center or a mobile option available locally is a desirable option.

We can only hope better service coverage is an ongoing priority.
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      09-17-2020, 11:10 AM   #26
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Tesla's QC has been improving, and the OTA updates are a nice feature. Having a drive-in service center or a mobile option available locally is a desirable option.
I don't think this is the case. QC if anything has been at a standstill. The new Y is facing similar issues that the 3 experience. In addition to manufacturing defects that are rampant. Also, one area of decline is service quality due to the volume of vehicles needing rework straight from the factory. The reason QC has improved on the S and Y is that they've been in production since 2012 & 16 and the last update to any tech was in mid-2015.

I do agree that the screens and lack of physical buttons does allow tesla to upgrade functionality and user experience. However, I really like simple button controls for things like HVAC and wipers. Pretty annoying when you have to navigate menus while your driving for hvac which is the case now. Sure you get used to it, but still, nothing more simple than a button with tactile feedback.
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      09-18-2020, 09:59 AM   #27
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I don't think this is the case. QC if anything has been at a standstill. The new Y is facing similar issues that the 3 experience. In addition to manufacturing defects that are rampant. Also, one area of decline is service quality due to the volume of vehicles needing rework straight from the factory. The reason QC has improved on the S and Y is that they've been in production since 2012 & 16 and the last update to any tech was in mid-2015.

I do agree that the screens and lack of physical buttons does allow tesla to upgrade functionality and user experience. However, I really like simple button controls for things like HVAC and wipers. Pretty annoying when you have to navigate menus while your driving for hvac which is the case now. Sure you get used to it, but still, nothing more simple than a button with tactile feedback.
I saw this and thought there was some notable improvement.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...y-2019-10?op=1

I too like the addition of physical buttons for simple car functions. A big reason why the i4 appeals to me. I hope BMW integrates OTA updates with the i4 when it becomes available.

I tend to like smaller cars. Something in the 175 inch length or less. Seems like most of the EV's are larger. My main around town car is a 2019 Mini S. Does everything I need it to do. Mini offers a EV, but it has minimal range. I'm hoping to see a LR compact "something" become available in the near future. So far the only manufacturer that has hinted at a compact is Tesla.

As an aside, I find it very difficult to find any information that is completely truthful and unbiased. This seems to apply to all media sources IMO. Pundits and journalists bring whatever biases they have to their reports and stories and slant their articles to support their personal views (sadly, this isn't by accident). A shame since it makes a person wanting the real story on anything harder and harder to get.

We certainly live in interesting times (for better or worse).................
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      09-18-2020, 11:13 AM   #28
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I saw this and thought there was some notable improvement.

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesl...y-2019-10?op=1

I too like the addition of physical buttons for simple car functions. A big reason why the i4 appeals to me. I hope BMW integrates OTA updates with the i4 when it becomes available.

I tend to like smaller cars. Something in the 175 inch length or less. Seems like most of the EV's are larger. My main around town car is a 2019 Mini S. Does everything I need it to do. Mini offers a EV, but it has minimal range. I'm hoping to see a LR compact "something" become available in the near future. So far the only manufacturer that has hinted at a compact is Tesla.

As an aside, I find it very difficult to find any information that is completely truthful and unbiased. This seems to apply to all media sources IMO. Pundits and journalists bring whatever biases they have to their reports and stories and slant their articles to support their personal views (sadly, this isn't by accident). A shame since it makes a person wanting the real story on anything harder and harder to get.

We certainly live in interesting times (for better or worse).................
Don't get me wrong, the cars are awesome. They are just nowhere near the quality of anything half the price. People tend to tie the tech to quality, not sure why. Yes, the cars have quality tech, no they are not built well and shake themselves loose all the time.

Totally agree with you. It's hard to find honest and none biased reviews, especially with Tesla's. It's the mentality the company wanted from the start - your either with them or against them, theirs no in the middle.

The MINI is an awesome car, especially after BMW took over and started making engines for them in the most recent generations. The EV Mini is a disappointment as it's practically an i3. I wish BMW did a better job and knocked it out of the park with the EV MINI as I think it would have killed.

As for the OTA, I'm positive it will be standard. Even the current G series cars receive OTA updates. Physical buttons do limit what can be updated, but that's ok with me. I don't need my AC controls changed or back seat heaters unlocked(Not a deal-breaker for me). Food for thought, think about this. The hardware for feature updates is already physically in the car. Tesla just unlocks it. Most of the feature-packed OTA's are, IMO, a gimmick, unless they improve drivability due to an error made in the code. Thus I think, BMW will, without a doubt, will implement OTA's, especially for battery, drive units, and BMS functions.
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      09-24-2020, 08:17 PM   #29
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i'm expecting every trim level of i4 to be at least $10k more expensive than the comparable model 3 trim even after full incentives are applied $7500+$2500 here in California. Up to the consumers to decide if the exterior, interior and badge is worth the extra money. bottom line, the more competition the better.
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      09-24-2020, 09:56 PM   #30
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i'm expecting every trim level of i4 to be at least $10k more expensive than the comparable model 3 trim even after full incentives are applied $7500+$2500 here in California. Up to the consumers to decide if the exterior, interior and badge is worth the extra money. bottom line, the more competition the better.
Fair guess on the pricing but you are absolutely correct about the competition being a good thing. Tesla is a great car but needs to be challenged and of BMW can square away a drivetrain, I think the i4 could be great competition to the Tesla 3.
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      09-25-2020, 02:28 PM   #31
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...They are just nowhere near the quality of anything half the price....Yes, the cars have quality tech, no they are not built well and shake themselves loose all the time. ..
This is a ridiculous, false statement, IMO.

I drove Audis for 20+ years and Audi build quality is near the top of the industry. My Model 3 isnít at that same level, but itís not too far behind, and is clearly above mainstream (Honda/Toyota/Buick, etc.) cars. We can disagree about the quality of the interior (I find it to be refreshingly simple, very solidly built and very comfortable; you might think a 3 series or C-Class is ďbetterĒ, but I find both to be overwrought and distractingly disjointed) Nary a singe rattle or squeak in my car after 25K miles and never a need for any service of any kind.

The legacy mfrs have a tough task ahead of them to match Teslaís overall package. Witness the Taycan - beautiful, nicely built but woefully inefficient and very expensive. Same for the Jaguar iPace.

Tesla will likely have an easier time updating its interiors than the legacy mfrs will improving their EVísí efficiency by 30%, or cultivating a totallly seamless DC fast charging experience for long distance travel anything like Teslaís Supercharger network.
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      09-25-2020, 08:41 PM   #32
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This is a ridiculous, false statement, IMO.

I drove Audis for 20+ years and Audi build quality is near the top of the industry. My Model 3 isnít at that same level, but itís not too far behind, and is clearly above mainstream (Honda/Toyota/Buick, etc.) cars. We can disagree about the quality of the interior (I find it to be refreshingly simple, very solidly built and very comfortable; you might think a 3 series or C-Class is ďbetterĒ, but I find both to be overwrought and distractingly disjointed) Nary a singe rattle or squeak in my car after 25K miles and never a need for any service of any kind.
Sub-mediocre cars around an innovative powertrain...at least the parts Home Depot didn't make.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/...rade-fake-wood

https://electrek.co/2020/07/15/video...-bumper-viral/

Good thing you haven't needed repair:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...e-battery.html

The bottom line for Tesla is the most advanced EV powertrain now available (until Lucid launches) unfortunately wrapped by an underdeveloped, amateur vehicle. Please don't reply with sales numbers. People buy "billions" of what they think is "food" at McD's.
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      09-25-2020, 09:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Sub-mediocre cars around an innovative powertrain...at least the parts Home Depot didn't make.

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/...rade-fake-wood

https://electrek.co/2020/07/15/video...-bumper-viral/

Good thing you haven't needed repair:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...e-battery.html

The bottom line for Tesla is the most advanced EV powertrain now available (until Lucid launches) unfortunately wrapped by an underdeveloped, amateur vehicle. Please don't reply with sales numbers. People buy "billions" of what they think is "food" at McD's.
Ha - considering that the BMW 3 series is the 2nd most traded vehicle on the Model 3, I guess none of those buyers know what theyíre talking about either eh?

Or is it just possible that the highest owner satisfaction in the industry BY FAR isnít simply a coincidence?
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      09-25-2020, 10:26 PM   #34
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Ha - considering that the BMW 3 series is the 2nd most traded vehicle on the Model 3, I guess none of those buyers know what theyíre talking about either eh?

Or is it just possible that the highest owner satisfaction in the industry BY FAR isnít simply a coincidence?
Sales volume is a deflection when discussion the sorry state of the product, it's lack of development, awful assembly quality, poor design...other than granting industry-leading status to the powertrain. Between those who 1) prize novelty, 2) enjoy the high performance, 3) think they are now "cool", 4) Elon cultists, 5) environmentalists tired of their Priuses, it is not difficult to account for sales in the absence of EVs from actual vehicle manufacturing companies.

At one point, they had $1000 of mine as a deposit. I then had the chance to see a Model 3 Tesla deemed high enough quality to be a display vehicle in one of their showrooms. It was pitiful for the poor fit and finish inside and out...too long to list here. And, that is one they were proud enough of to display! The best thing about Tesla was the speed of the deposit refund.

The owner satisfaction phenomenon is easy. Cognitive dissonance. Of course these "pioneers" of the "latest and greatest" report high satisfaction. Same behavior happened with the AMC Pacer. Until only recently, Tesla Model 3 owners reported enough defects for the car to actually lose a recommendation based on quality alone (not performance) from CU.

Regardless of how many are sold and how many convince themselves they are happy (and nothing really wrong with that...the happier the better), there is no denying the vast array of shortfalls of the actual vehicles, if being objective. We can most assuredly expect better from all the experienced and knowledgeable competitors who are now starting to appear.
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      09-25-2020, 10:44 PM   #35
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This is a ridiculous, false statement, IMO.

I drove Audis for 20+ years and Audi build quality is near the top of the industry. My Model 3 isnít at that same level, but itís not too far behind, and is clearly above mainstream (Honda/Toyota/Buick, etc.) cars. We can disagree about the quality of the interior (I find it to be refreshingly simple, very solidly built and very comfortable; you might think a 3 series or C-Class is ďbetterĒ, but I find both to be overwrought and distractingly disjointed) Nary a singe rattle or squeak in my car after 25K miles and never a need for any service of any kind.

The legacy mfrs have a tough task ahead of them to match Teslaís overall package. Witness the Taycan - beautiful, nicely built but woefully inefficient and very expensive. Same for the Jaguar iPace.

Tesla will likely have an easier time updating its interiors than the legacy mfrs will improving their EVísí efficiency by 30%, or cultivating a totally seamless DC fast charging experience for long distance travel anything like Teslaís Supercharger network.
Jeeze, relax, I'm a shareholder lol, I want them to succeed, but I won't blindly follow or support them. They have a lot to work on. Hear me out.

My opinion is based on the experience of working there pre and during model 3. I've seen a lot of examples of loose lower ball joint bolts, rear bumpers falling off, parts missing from the factory, seats missing bolts, loose grounds that randomly stall the car - all on new or almost new delivered cars. The rule of thumb is to never buy near the beginning or end of the quarter as these cars are known to be "Pumped Out". Based on what I've seen, pretty much any manufacturer on the US market has better build quality than Tesla, period. This is also after spending 5yrs at BMW.

As for the interior, your correct, it's easy to upgrade an interior that has one screen. Not much of a bar set there. Look how old the Model s is with nothing major refreshed since 2016 when the drive units and battery pack were redesigned and some bodywork. Don't get me started on the tech inside and out. It's outdated and so is the look of the car. IMO, they would have been better off refreshing the whole car to position themselves to compete against the upcoming competitors from Lucid, MBZ, and BMW.

Regarding the Taycan. They consistently exceed range specifications without having to hypermile the car. Porsche would rather under-promise than under deliver. Not something easily found when searching Tesla range.


For anyone who is considering buying a Tesla, visit the forums and see exactly what I'm talking about. You'll be able to see a larger picture of overall quality vs reading a pissing match on bimmer forums, lol.
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      09-25-2020, 11:29 PM   #36
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For anyone who is considering buying a Tesla, visit the forums and see exactly what I'm talking about. You'll be able to see a larger picture of overall quality vs reading a pissing match on bimmer forums, lol.
honestly when i bought mine i felt the quality was definitely not great, mismatched gaps for exterior panels and interior trims, material quality was on par with a stripper 3 series, good thing it didn't have that many hard plastic areas (however the center console piano black is terrible) but still pretty mediocre overall definitely not worth the price.

but the instant torque(5-60, 30-50, 50-70), low center of gravity handling, supercharging, range and autopilot won me over.

combined they made me overlook a lot of the other not-so-good stuff. i have zero loyalty to any car brands and will switch to another EV manufacturer as long as they can provide the above at a lower price than the model 3.
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      09-26-2020, 07:01 AM   #37
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Itís amazing to me how many people make blanket statements about Teslas (or any make, really) who have never actually owned the vehicle in question. As if reading forum comments gives a clear overview of the ownership experience. LOL.

Or as if all buyers of any brand that the individual doesnít like are unable to discern reality. Double LOL.
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      09-26-2020, 11:10 AM   #38
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FWIW, in today's "No Good News news cycle", it's easy to find articles or videos disparaging any product. Scotty Kilmer and BMW comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...tty+kilmer+BMW

You can knock a car company that has only been in business for 17 years for QC and assembly issues comparing it to others that have been in the business for 100+ years. Yet the upstart has all the old timers scrambling to catch up with their technology.

You hear of a few oddball cases that grab headlines (remember our BMW's spontaneously combusting everywhere?) and everyone repeats it. Mine hasn't even started to smoke yet

Tesla QC will improve and by all accounts maintain it's lead over the others in battery development. Others will slowly catch up once battery tech hits it's limit.

I hope BMW produces the i4 with the same fit and finish as their ICE cars while providing a range that comes close to the LR Model 3 (and not priced it too far beyond it's suggested $50-60K starting price). If so, I'm in.
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      09-26-2020, 04:01 PM   #39
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honestly when i bought mine i felt the quality was definitely not great, mismatched gaps for exterior panels and interior trims, material quality was on par with a stripper 3 series, good thing it didn't have that many hard plastic areas (however the center console piano black is terrible) but still pretty mediocre overall definitely not worth the price.

but the instant torque(5-60, 30-50, 50-70), low center of gravity handling, supercharging, range and autopilot won me over.

combined they made me overlook a lot of the other not-so-good stuff. i have zero loyalty to any car brands and will switch to another EV manufacturer as long as they can provide the above at a lower price than the model 3.
Solid points and on par with how I feel about the brand!

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Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Itís amazing to me how many people make blanket statements about Teslas (or any make, really) who have never actually owned the vehicle in question. As if reading forum comments gives a clear overview of the ownership experience. LOL.

Or as if all buyers of any brand that the individual doesnít like are unable to discern reality. Double LOL.
Reading a forum is just as good as reading a magazine review or consumer reports. There is a reason why Tesla constantly falls off its "recommended list".



Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
FWIW, in today's "No Good News news cycle", it's easy to find articles or videos disparaging any product. Scotty Kilmer and BMW comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...tty+kilmer+BMW

You can knock a car company that has only been in business for 17 years for QC and assembly issues comparing it to others that have been in the business for 100+ years. Yet the upstart has all the old timers scrambling to catch up with their technology.

You hear of a few oddball cases that grab headlines (remember our BMW's spontaneously combusting everywhere?) and everyone repeats it. Mine hasn't even started to smoke yet

Tesla QC will improve and by all accounts maintain it's lead over the others in battery development. Others will slowly catch up once battery tech hits it's limit.

I hope BMW produces the i4 with the same fit and finish as their ICE cars while providing a range that comes close to the LR Model 3 (and not priced it too far beyond it's suggested $50-60K starting price). If so, I'm in.
Valid points. A few takeaways.

Time and quality should never be associated in the statement. Think about it. Quality is built into the product, time does not build quality. Especially since panel stamping and automotive engineering have been around for a century. This argument can be made with new technology such as batteries and drive units as the processes were freshly developed. So with that said, Tesla QC will only improve when they decide to improve the process, not as time goes on.

As for the Tech, I agree, it's a tough road ahead for traditional manufacturers and they are at a clear disadvantage - they also have more lose than Tesla ever has.
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      09-27-2020, 12:04 PM   #40
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Solid points and on par with how I feel about the brand!...
Reading a forum is just as good as reading a magazine review or consumer reports. There is a reason why Tesla constantly falls off its "recommended list"....
Valid points. A few takeaways.

Time and quality should never be associated in the statement. Think about it. Quality is built into the product, time does not build quality. Especially since panel stamping and automotive engineering have been around for a century. This argument can be made with new technology such as batteries and drive units as the processes were freshly developed. So with that said, Tesla QC will only improve when they decide to improve the process, not as time goes on.

As for the Tech, I agree, it's a tough road ahead for traditional manufacturers and they are at a clear disadvantage - they also have more lose than Tesla ever has.
I agree with almost all, other than CR has the benefit of large sample size of actual owners reporting quality issues. That is how Model 3 fell off the list at first.

The problem with Tesla that doesn't seem to afflict traditional OEMs to the same degree is hubris. No one should dispute that Tesla developed the world's leading state-of-the-art electric powertrain. The problem became that, having done so, they thought they had similar capability for an entire vehicle that surrounds it. There are companies such as NedCar or Magna Steyr who could have partnered with them and designed and built the car around that Tesla powertrain for them. Even if those potential partners did nothing more than assembly, Tesla would have been far ahead and far more competent and desireable as a brand. We've read reasons in above posts as to why owners overlook the poor results that eventuated from Tesla's mismatch of confidence and capability for an entire vehicle program. But, they are simply offsetting "Things Gone Right" (e.g. speed) that allowed some people to diminish the importance of the "Things Gone Wrong", which are objectively demonstrable and unfortunately far higher in number than what could have been otherwise.
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      09-27-2020, 03:30 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
I agree with almost all, other than CR has the benefit of large sample size of actual owners reporting quality issues. That is how Model 3 fell off the list at first.

The problem with Tesla that doesn't seem to afflict traditional OEMs to the same degree is hubris. No one should dispute that Tesla developed the world's leading state-of-the-art electric powertrain. The problem became that, having done so, they thought they had similar capability for an entire vehicle that surrounds it. There are companies such as NedCar or Magna Steyr who could have partnered with them and designed and built the car around that Tesla powertrain for them. Even if those potential partners did nothing more than assembly, Tesla would have been far ahead and far more competent and desireable as a brand. We've read reasons in above posts as to why owners overlook the poor results that eventuated from Tesla's mismatch of confidence and capability for an entire vehicle program. But, they are simply offsetting "Things Gone Right" (e.g. speed) that allowed some people to diminish the importance of the "Things Gone Wrong", which are objectively demonstrable and unfortunately far higher in number than what could have been otherwise.
Couldn't agree more.

Tesla's powertrain is unbeatable! It's the overall package that takes away from an amazing car.

It would be interesting if Tesla made its powertrain available to other manufacturers. Almost like the F1 system where you can buy the chassis/engine from the Manufacturer teams. Similar to what Toyota did with the Supra.

We'll see what the EV world looks like in the next 5yrs. I'm not opposed to going Tesla, it's just not at the top of my list. It's going to be interesting to see what the competition develops.
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      09-27-2020, 04:26 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by TheDudeMan View Post
Couldn't agree more.

Tesla's powertrain is unbeatable! It's the overall package that takes away from an amazing car.

It would be interesting if Tesla made its powertrain available to other manufacturers. Almost like the F1 system where you can buy the chassis/engine from the Manufacturer teams. Similar to what Toyota did with the Supra.

We'll see what the EV world looks like in the next 5yrs. I'm not opposed to going Tesla, it's just not at the top of my list. It's going to be interesting to see what the competition develops.
Agree again. I would have much preferred letting Tesla apply my $1000 deposit to a high quality car I would now have had for a few years. At least, they got the refund handled correctly. The Model 3 display car I saw, as well as others I would look at as they became more popular, were just too poorly made to be acceptable. Model 3 forum posts were full of sad stories and photos. Tear-down analyses and CR owner data confirmed it. Going "EV-fast" wasn't important enough for this family car to offset all the other problems. I wound up with my 330i instead that has been perfect for three years on lease, so I just bought it with a spectacular offer from BMWFS. When that goes, an EV is next, and the choices will be enough to find a high quality source, preferably an i4, but could be others.
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      09-27-2020, 05:11 PM   #43
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Interesting perspective given that the Model 3 is recommended by CR, and is rated significantly higher than the vaunted BMW 3 series.

Or do you only care what CR says when you can find a circumstance that supports your point of view??
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      09-27-2020, 05:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ZCD1 View Post
Interesting perspective given that the Model 3 is recommended by CR, and is rated significantly higher than the vaunted BMW 3 series.

Or do you only care what CR says when you can find a circumstance that supports your point of view??
Here are the facts from the source:

Poor for a long time:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...bility-issues/

They have improved recently:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...20CR%20members.

There seems to be hope for them and a couple of us have said we would look again in the future. That does not lessen the poor start they had as over-confident novices who missed the chance to do it right the first time. Maybe next-gen Model 3 will excel with lessons learned.
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