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      04-22-2020, 09:08 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
My, an M3 with a torque converter, a transmission slower than it's predecessor, lower revving than the s55, is that what the customers have been asking for?

In the past it was easy to point out what differentiated the brand; high revving engine, CFRP roof, SMG or M DCT, CFRP driveshaft, handling, etc. Looks like M's engineering excellence is a victim to the company accountants.
So did your bargain basement E36 or E46 M have a CF roof? Nope! How about a CFRP driveshaft? Naw, I don't think so. The E36 M3 surely came with an automatic transmission (...**cough**.....torque converter.....**cough**) in the U.S. Come to think of it, SMGII sucked too.

As for your other complaint(s)...


....every iteration of M car has outperformed the outgoing car. With reference to the "high revving" E9X, an F8X will walk that car by at least 8 car lengths or more stock vs. stock, and that's with less revs. Revs are posturing. Revs aren't everything.

M engineering is doing EXACTLY what it's designed to do:

1. Provide an objectively better performing car than the outgoing model.

2. Respond to regulatory changes.

3. Respond to the needs/desires of its overall customer base (...which may or may not include a percentage of this forum).

4. MAKE MONEY and remain profitable.

5. Offer something that other competitor manufacturers have jettisoned: a manual transmission!

6. Think "future forward" and design for the future of the automotive industry, not for complainers who aren't adaptable and are too rooted in nostalgia. Nostalgia doesn't sustain businesses. Nostalgia doesn't sell cars.

...and so on.
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      04-22-2020, 09:19 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
My, an M3 with a torque converter, a transmission slower than it's predecessor, lower revving than the s55, is that what the customers have been asking for?

In the past it was easy to point out what differentiated the brand; high revving engine, CFRP roof, SMG or M DCT, CFRP driveshaft, handling, etc. Looks like M's engineering excellence is a victim to the company accountants.
It's not only accountants. It's the owners and the board ... they transformed the company into money grab business where nothing is sacred any more.

Many M customers have no clue what drivetrain capabilities are and never drive vehicles on track or take spitited drives. There are folks on this forum that claim the X M's are real M cars. WTF!!?? How often do you see them racing? Maybe they are cause M has different meaning now I guess.

If you look at f80 section so many owners and buyers care about driver assistance bs features and leather more than the human-machine interface. Most M enthusiasats have or had e30, e36, e46 and e9x but are now owners of P and even Camaro, and X3s for wives. I talked to several of them at meets and hpde. Many bmw instructors moved to P after e46.

This new M3 will be nothing special with a copy-paste engine/drivetrain from SUVs, horrid design and will be probably larger and heavier than F80. It will be fast though but will it be fun and connected the way even sport package 3 series used to be?
Hmmm, it wasn't long ago that the F8X was being lambasted for its lack of connectedness, so let's not act like the issue is new. The issue has been mentioned as far back as the E46, that's why BMW retuned the steering ratios and other things on the 05-up E46 ZCP and non-ZCP. If I remember correctly, they gave all of the 05's-up the steering rack and brakes from the CSL.
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      04-22-2020, 09:34 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
My, an M3 with a torque converter, a transmission slower than it's predecessor, lower revving than the s55, is that what the customers have been asking for?

In the past it was easy to point out what differentiated the brand; high revving engine, CFRP roof, SMG or M DCT, CFRP driveshaft, handling, etc. Looks like M's engineering excellence is a victim to the company accountants.
It's not only accountants. It's the owners and the board ... they transformed the company into money grab business where nothing is sacred any more.

Many M customers have no clue what drivetrain capabilities are and never drive vehicles on track or take spitited drives. There are folks on this forum that claim the X M's are real M cars. WTF!!?? How often do you see them racing? Maybe they are cause M has different meaning now I guess.

If you look at f80 section so many owners and buyers care about driver assistance bs features and leather more than the human-machine interface. Most M enthusiasats have or had e30, e36, e46 and e9x but are now owners of P and even Camaro, and X3s for wives. I talked to several of them at meets and hpde. Many bmw instructors moved to P after e46.

This new M3 will be nothing special with a copy-paste engine/drivetrain from SUVs, horrid design and will be probably larger and heavier than F80. It will be fast though but will it be fun and connected the way even sport package 3 series used to be?
Nothing wrong with the direction M is going as long as BMW is making money and able to continue its operation. One reason why the M2 received so many accolades was because it went back to basics (somewhat). In fact, the M2C is the M CEO's choice of his personal company car.

Sure the M3/4 have gone in a new direction than what it was years before. But I for one appreciate the new tech, amenities and everything covered in leather. Especially if someone is buying this as a DD.

If I wanted more emphasis on driving dynamics, I would go old stock or even a preowned Porsche.

The truth is BMW can't get away with maintaining their business by focusing purely on the driving experience without modern tech. Enthusiasts do not have enough capacity and buying power to sustain the brand.
It is ok to have options for luxury Ms. No problem there.

The issue is that they enlarged and numbed all cars and left enthusiasts hanging. They wait years to release overpriced GTS, CS etc. that get destroyed by Camaro at half the cost or less and release 3 m2 updates within 3 years. There is no halo car of any kind. Audi has r8 at least. They have no strategy anymore it is obvious.

I test drove M2c. I can tell you that it has numb rubbery steering and engine sound is laughable ... like a vacum cleaner. I had F80 pass me on the straight at Summit Pt. hpde in VA and I could not believe the sound probably close to full throtle at 125mph i.e. frrrrp and that was it. wow! However the size of the car and drivetrain is great. And then, guess what!? There is M2 CS coming out at the end of model production that many won't be able to buy! Really!!?? Probably the best car in the entire lineup is limited!! How does that make sense??

They have no strategy in my view and don't care about the folks that supported and help them build M brand over the last 3 decades. That's fine ... time to move on.
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      04-22-2020, 09:40 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
My, an M3 with a torque converter, a transmission slower than it's predecessor, lower revving than the s55, is that what the customers have been asking for?

In the past it was easy to point out what differentiated the brand; high revving engine, CFRP roof, SMG or M DCT, CFRP driveshaft, handling, etc. Looks like M's engineering excellence is a victim to the company accountants.
It's not only accountants. It's the owners and the board ... they transformed the company into money grab business where nothing is sacred any more.

Many M customers have no clue what drivetrain capabilities are and never drive vehicles on track or take spitited drives. There are folks on this forum that claim the X M's are real M cars. WTF!!?? How often do you see them racing? Maybe they are cause M has different meaning now I guess.

If you look at f80 section so many owners and buyers care about driver assistance bs features and leather more than the human-machine interface. Most M enthusiasats have or had e30, e36, e46 and e9x but are now owners of P and even Camaro, and X3s for wives. I talked to several of them at meets and hpde. Many bmw instructors moved to P after e46.

This new M3 will be nothing special with a copy-paste engine/drivetrain from SUVs, horrid design and will be probably larger and heavier than F80. It will be fast though but will it be fun and connected the way even sport package 3 series used to be?
Nothing wrong with the direction M is going as long as BMW is making money and able to continue its operation. One reason why the M2 received so many accolades was because it went back to basics (somewhat). In fact, the M2C is the M CEO's choice of his personal company car.

Sure the M3/4 have gone in a new direction than what it was years before. But I for one appreciate the new tech, amenities and everything covered in leather. Especially if someone is buying this as a DD.

If I wanted more emphasis on driving dynamics, I would go old stock or even a preowned Porsche.

The truth is BMW can't get away with maintaining their business by focusing purely on the driving experience without modern tech. Enthusiasts do not have enough capacity and buying power to sustain the brand.
It is ok to have options for luxury Ms. No problem there.

The issue is that they enlarged and numbed all cars and left enthusiasts hanging. They wait years to release overpriced GTS, CS etc. that get destroyed by Camaro at half the cost or less and release 3 m2 updates within 3 years. There is no halo car of any kind. Audi has r8 at least. They have no strategy anymore it is obvious.

I test drove M2c. I can tell you that it has numb rubbery steering and engine sound is laughable ... like a vacum cleaner. I had F80 pass me on the straight at Summit Pt. hpde in VA and I could not believe the sound probably close to full throtle at 125mph i.e. frrrrp and that was it. wow! However the size of the car and drivetrain is great. And then, guess what!? There is M2 CS coming out at the end of model production that many won't be able to buy! Really!!?? Probably the best car in the entire lineup is limited!! How does that make sense??

They have no strategy in my view and don't care about the folks that supported and help them build M brand over the last 3 decades. That's fine ... time to move on.
There are plenty of cars out there that will compete with an M for half the price. It has ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY! Even when I was in high school in the mid-90's, the Nissan 300ZX, Toyota Supra, etc. could dust an M3. Heck, a 1995 Nissan Maxima could get the better of a 1995 M3 in a straight line. A Corvette has always been able to run an M for less money, as has a Ford Cobra. I could go on, but anybody who has been driving M cars for any length of time (...and who aren't infants to the brand) will concede that the M is not always the fastest car for the money. It has always been about MORE than outright speed. I've been in mostly M cars for 20 years now (...almost as long as some M owners have been alive), so I've personally witnessed the paradigm shift in the mentality of M owners. Blame the buyers, not BMW.

The folks who support the brand change. Support is fluid. The people who supported the brand 30 years ago are not the same people who support it now. Times change and people have softened up. The result: a softer M car.
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      04-22-2020, 10:20 PM   #401
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So is there a chance they redesign the front grill considering the acceptance rate of it is approximately 20% on this forum?
Everybody freaked the fuck out when Audi came out with their gigantic gaping shield grille. Now, no one bats an eye. People get used to stuff and then it starts to look good to them.

Me, personally, count me in that 20% who was blown away by how good that 4 series concept looked, big grille and all.
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      04-22-2020, 11:29 PM   #402
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Shocking the lengths people will go (and number of characters they will write!!) to lambast a car that has not been released yet. We see it every generation. Can't wait to get past this phase.
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      04-23-2020, 05:01 AM   #403
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Back in the day when my s54 could rev out to 8k, and M engineers scoffed at MB (larger capacity) and Audi (forced induction) to match power on an M3. Or the SMG that could change gear faster than any other system on the market, or the hp per litre that was class leading, yeah that was engineering excellence.

On to the e92 and the s65 that goes to 8.4k, cfrp roof (MB just painted theirs black), m dct and m diff, yeah still pretty special engineering.

On to my f82, looks stunning, super fast, but less special wrt engineering. Everybody can do turbo, at least the s55 revs to 7.6k and it has cfrp roof and driveshaft. Still got a nice DCT transmission.

And the omens for G82, more power, less revs, very quick, auto box. Could be a MB or an Audi or....
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      04-23-2020, 06:14 AM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
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Originally Posted by JCZ5 View Post
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Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
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Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
My, an M3 with a torque converter, a transmission slower than it's predecessor, lower revving than the s55, is that what the customers have been asking for?

In the past it was easy to point out what differentiated the brand; high revving engine, CFRP roof, SMG or M DCT, CFRP driveshaft, handling, etc. Looks like M's engineering excellence is a victim to the company accountants.
It's not only accountants. It's the owners and the board ... they transformed the company into money grab business where nothing is sacred any more.

Many M customers have no clue what drivetrain capabilities are and never drive vehicles on track or take spitited drives. There are folks on this forum that claim the X M's are real M cars. WTF!!?? How often do you see them racing? Maybe they are cause M has different meaning now I guess.

If you look at f80 section so many owners and buyers care about driver assistance bs features and leather more than the human-machine interface. Most M enthusiasats have or had e30, e36, e46 and e9x but are now owners of P and even Camaro, and X3s for wives. I talked to several of them at meets and hpde. Many bmw instructors moved to P after e46.

This new M3 will be nothing special with a copy-paste engine/drivetrain from SUVs, horrid design and will be probably larger and heavier than F80. It will be fast though but will it be fun and connected the way even sport package 3 series used to be?
Nothing wrong with the direction M is going as long as BMW is making money and able to continue its operation. One reason why the M2 received so many accolades was because it went back to basics (somewhat). In fact, the M2C is the M CEO's choice of his personal company car.

Sure the M3/4 have gone in a new direction than what it was years before. But I for one appreciate the new tech, amenities and everything covered in leather. Especially if someone is buying this as a DD.

If I wanted more emphasis on driving dynamics, I would go old stock or even a preowned Porsche.

The truth is BMW can't get away with maintaining their business by focusing purely on the driving experience without modern tech. Enthusiasts do not have enough capacity and buying power to sustain the brand.
It is ok to have options for luxury Ms. No problem there.

The issue is that they enlarged and numbed all cars and left enthusiasts hanging. They wait years to release overpriced GTS, CS etc. that get destroyed by Camaro at half the cost or less and release 3 m2 updates within 3 years. There is no halo car of any kind. Audi has r8 at least. They have no strategy anymore it is obvious.

I test drove M2c. I can tell you that it has numb rubbery steering and engine sound is laughable ... like a vacum cleaner. I had F80 pass me on the straight at Summit Pt. hpde in VA and I could not believe the sound probably close to full throtle at 125mph i.e. frrrrp and that was it. wow! However the size of the car and drivetrain is great. And then, guess what!? There is M2 CS coming out at the end of model production that many won't be able to buy! Really!!?? Probably the best car in the entire lineup is limited!! How does that make sense??

They have no strategy in my view and don't care about the folks that supported and help them build M brand over the last 3 decades. That's fine ... time to move on.
Yep, I hear what you're saying and it's unfortunate from an enthusiast perspective. But echoing Sedan_Clan point, there are many vehicles that outperform at a vastly lower price of entry.

The original appeal of M was the dual nature of "performance" and livability. However, most people's definition of livability criteria as expanded beyond what it was 20-30 years ago. When the E30 M3 was around, livability just included having 4 seats, stereo, air con, etc. However, in 2020, it not only increases with the amount of gov mandated safety features. But also the inclusion of technology, substantial increase in luxury features and a more compliant ride.

In a sense, M was always compromised because it has to straddle two opposing needs. And the gap and compromise only widens as the two sporty and livability groups drastically diverge as the years go by.

Lastly, the reason M charges so much and makes LE for cars we enthusiasts would like is because it's inability to sell. My deeming something LE actually helps insure that all units are sold vs. non-limited, people would not have that sense of urgency. Likewise, car development is a very costly endeavor. You will he shocked how much it takes to redesign a switch. So for every new performance model, BMW must charge significantly to pay back its investments.

Also people moving on to other brand is not a bad thing. The M division was always a stepping stone for younger enthusiasts and families. When families become empty nesters or individuals wanted something more capable, the reasonable next step was to buy a pure sports car, such as a Porsche or Lotus, etc
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      04-23-2020, 06:51 AM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
Back in the day when my s54 could rev out to 8k, and M engineers scoffed at MB (larger capacity) and Audi (forced induction) to match power on an M3. Or the SMG that could change gear faster than any other system on the market, or the hp per litre that was class leading, yeah that was engineering excellence.

On to the e92 and the s65 that goes to 8.4k, cfrp roof (MB just painted theirs black), m dct and m diff, yeah still pretty special engineering.

On to my f82, looks stunning, super fast, but less special wrt engineering. Everybody can do turbo, at least the s55 revs to 7.6k and it has cfrp roof and driveshaft. Still got a nice DCT transmission.

And the omens for G82, more power, less revs, very quick, auto box. Could be a MB or an Audi or....
Hmmm! Your rebuttals are hollow. You're romanticizing things while ignoring what was taking place in car culture at the time (...assuming you are even old enough or owned an M3 at the time).

The comparable MB was always just as quick as the M3, but it just felt different. It was that feeling that separated the two, not the performance. Sure, the S54 revved like a Honda VTEC....

...but it also had the torque of a Honda VTEC, too. Back in the day on E46 Fanatics (...and other forums devoted to that car), the significant lack of torque, heavy weight and tin can exhaust were constant complaints. Oh, and everybody lambasted the looks, too. It was NOT universally loved. SMGII transmissions would run hot, fail to change gear, go into limp mode, etc. All of that marketing nonsense meant nothing when your SMGII M3 was stuck in a parking lot because it won't shift out of park, or in my case with my first of two E46 M3's, when the VANOS resulted in a blown motor causing BMW to replace my entire motor, give me/us a 100,000 mile KIA/HYUNDAI-like powertrain warranty and provide me with a new E60 5 Series for a month and a half. I was one of the first to deal with the blown motor issue. When my S54 went kaboom I was on the freeway on a cloverleaf turn. I was lucky I didn't end up off the side of the freeway in a ditch when all the power went out and my car careened in a straight line before miraculously gaining enough power to allow me to turn the wheel and avoid the edge, but I digress....

On the other heavily lambasted E9X - I've owned 3 - that romanticized "M Diff" you keep bringing up was the source of discontent for many M owners as it made horrible grinding noises during right/left turns, causing BMW to do a mass replacement for E9X owners (...kinda like the CFRP driveshaft you keep touting). So special! <rolls eyes> News flash: other companies have technologically advanced differentials as well. BMW is not the only company with some sort of E-differential.

Oh yeah, and for a V8 the S65 lacked torque. That was another huge complaint. So we have two full M iterations with torque issues, requiring high revs just to feel any power. It sounds to me like BMW finally listened and responded to 9-ish years of complaints when they developed the S55. Finally power was available below 5500 RPM's.

The F8X is a marvel. It's my favorite M car yet. It wasn't without its issues though.

The G8X will STILL have a manual (...interesting that you keep ignoring that fact), will likely have lightweight materials at least equal to that of the F8X, will likely weigh similarly, will likely make an F8X feel slow, etc. You haven't driven the car yet, so why are you so quick to dismiss it.

With all of this talk about there being better cars out there with the same practicality and sportiness, most of us who have been around awhile have owned every more modern iteration of M. Despite everything MB, Audi, Cadillac, Jaguar, etc. has thrown at many of us for the past 20 years, we've stuck with M despite the weight, the introduction of turbos (...if you're one of those who is bothered by F/I), etc. For the few that have left for a Porsche GT car, I envy you. I would ditch my M in a heartbeat for a new 6MT GT3.
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      04-23-2020, 07:07 AM   #406
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If somebody wanted a "real sports car," they wouldn't have ever looked at a BMW M car to begin with. The M's have always been about street/sport compromise. If you can afford a real sports car, sell your F8X and go buy one. I would be curious to know which real sports cars offer the comfort and utility of an M car. Please enlighten me, because the sportier a car becomes, the less livable it becomes as well. It's bad enough that weak-sauce M drivers [on the forums] have been complaining that an M3 is too stiff/rigid/sporty for daily driving ever since 2001, yet, you have people come onto these forums and act like they can do better with something less livable.

....and you wonder why a company shifts a bit more towards comfort while still trying to provide some performance. They've been listening to you crybabies for twenty years.

Very few people buy/bought strippers. For those that bought stripper E46/E9X/F8X cars, I commend you. I truly do. You put your money where your mouth is. For the rest of the complainers with fully optioned cars complaining about weight, this thing or that thing.....shut up already. Go buy a used Porsche 911 for about the same price as your fully optioned M car and drive a real sports car.



P.S. People laugh(ed) at the cost of some F8X's too.
Exactly. I can understand if someone hates the new front design and doesn't want to buy a car (for a pretty high price) he doesn't like visually.

But talking about complaints like "it's not that high revving anymore", "it's too heavy", "the sound is too quiet", "it got too big", "they don't offer manuals for all models anymore"...well, which comparable car still offers this today (with the same quality regarding build, materials etc., so cars like Alfa, Cadillac etc. are out for most people)? Are Audi RS or AMG smaller or lighter (they're actually mostly heavier than the M models)? Can we just ignore all the new legal regulations (for example loudness of the exhaust noise), taxes (fuel consumption) etc.? Okay, the laws in the USA may be different, but these are globally active companies, they have to adapt to the conditions.

And for all the people who intend to move to Porsche, Corvette etc.: Well, if the track abilities are your only focus, then I don't know why you're even thinking about BMWs. These cars are not comparable. I buy a M3 because I want sportiness on a pretty high level, but also the trunk space, the practicality, the (at least solid) comfort etc. It's my daily driver.

I would like to buy a Porsche and I was thinking about it the last couple of months. But which model offers me what the M3 offers? The 911 is basically a 2-seater, has less trunk space and the Panamera is much, much bigger. Not to mention the price, of course. But I would be willing to pay the higher price if there was a real alternative from Porsche. But there isn't one.


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      04-23-2020, 07:30 AM   #407
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Sedan, after that user experience, why the hell do you still like the brand!

‘Everybody lambasted’ the e46 M3 looks, really?

Honda VTEC, not sure that’s a criticism, name a 3.2 litre or greater from that time with similar or better hp per litre (NA, of course)?

I’m not fussed with the CFRP driveshaft, BMW made a big deal of it at the car launch and and it had it has engineering merit.

Offering a manual transmission is a business commitment from BMW, it offers nothing new in engineering terms.
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      04-23-2020, 07:39 AM   #408
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Sedan, after that user experience, why the hell do you still like the brand!

'Everybody lambasted' the e46 M3 looks, really?

Honda VTEC, not sure that's a criticism, name a 3.2 litre or greater from that time with similar or better hp per litre (NA, of course)?

I'm not fussed with the CFRP driveshaft, BMW made a big deal of it at the car launch and and it had it has engineering merit.

Offering a manual transmission is a business commitment from BMW, it offers nothing new in engineering terms.
I just explained that. READ! I'm not the one romanticizing the M3 as if it is light years ahead of the competition in terms of performance, because it isn't. There are many better performing cars out there.

There is no other offering FOR THE MONEY that I prefer more that offers a manual transmission and livability. I like BMW's, so I stick with them. I will leave when I can put a manual GT3 in my driveway.

YES! People lambasted the E46. I was one of the first to buy an E46. I remember the complaints about the E46 from E36 owners, Roadfly members, etc. I remember E46 Fanatics topics back in 2001/2002/2003 about the E46 being a pig, too stiff for daily driving, not BMW-like in terms of looks, not having a driver-centric ergonomics set-up, the S54 sounding like a "diesel truck" during cold starts....like it's gasping for air, etc.. The fact that you're unaware tells me a lot.

You're missing the point about the high revving nature of the motor. Generally speaking, people hated having to drive the car like a bat out of hell just to obtain power from the car.....

....especially if you were trying to avoid catching the attention of me and my partners in black and white patrol cars!

Lastly, what car manufacturer DOESN'T make a big deal about some aspect of their cars in marketing material, making up fancy names for stuff you can find with other competitors (...albeit with tweaks for their particular applications)? Marketing means nothing once you cut out the fluff. How old are you?

This whole complaint process is cyclical. Owners of the previous cars complain, but eventually the motoring world moves on and people adapt. I remember when BMW said, "Pffft! We'll NEVER build an M-SAV (...even though the X5 4.8is was, for all intents and purposes, already an M-SAV without the M badge, but with the M cost of entry; looked great in Estoril Blue too). We'll NEVER use turbos. We're too good for that. We're committed to all motor excellence forever." Yeah, we see how that all worked out. The business model has to be fluid and adaptable for survival. Had BMW stuck to their guns with those words uttered back in the early 2000's, they would be in a bad place today. When they brought in the turbo's [again] with the 06' 335i, a bunch of all motor geeks claimed they were leaving, argued that turbos aren't BMW, BMW had lost the plot, etc.....but the enthusiast based evolved and the turbo geeks came in droves. That turbocharged 335i was as fast as the outgoing M3 (..even though it felt different) and tuners LOVED it. That first generation twin turbo motor was a beast; overbuilt and boost hungry.

The same will be said about this controversial design language. People will leave and people will come. Grille bashers will defect in lower numbers than these forums indicate and grille lovers will buy this car by the numbers. It will perform well and the M brand will live on.
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      04-23-2020, 08:26 AM   #409
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So much common sense being dropped by Sedan_Clan here. Similar negativity, different year. Can't wait to move past it and on to the coming build/production/ED/mod threads!
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      04-23-2020, 08:28 AM   #410
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Loved my E46 M3, loved the noise, didn’t think it was heavy, great styling. Even loved the SMG2, mechanically only had a rear spring fail. Didn’t pay much attention to forums then, just enjoyed the bloody car.

We’re allowed to have a different opinion. When BMW choose to put a slower transmission in an M car, especially the M3/ M4, then they lose a bit of their ‘high performance’ or ‘motorsport’ credibility in my eyes.

Won’t give you my age, but I’m a professional engineer in the semiconductor business for 30 years if that helps.
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      04-23-2020, 08:32 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by duky View Post
So much common sense being dropped by Sedan_Clan here. Similar negativity, different year. Can't wait to move past it and on to the coming build/production/ED/mod threads!
Mark my words. When our deep pocketed tuners and members start modding the G8X, you'll witness the circle jerking.
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      04-23-2020, 08:35 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
Loved my E46 M3, loved the noise, didn't think it was heavy, great styling. Even loved the SMG2, mechanically only had a rear spring fail. Didn't pay much attention to forums then, just enjoyed the bloody car.

We're allowed to have a different opinion. When BMW choose to put a slower transmission in an M car, especially the M3/ M4, then they lose a bit of their 'high performance' or 'motorsport' credibility in my eyes.

Won't give you my age, but I'm a professional engineer in the semiconductor business for 30 years if that helps.
I loved mine, too.....hence why I purchased the '05 ZCP years later despite my blown motor mishap in my first E46 M3. I've never felt like the M was lacking, but I've observed the forums behavior and responses to changes. Many react like petulant children.


You don't know that the auto in the M3/4 will be slower than the DCT in the F8X. You are assuming. Until the car is released and pitted against rivals and the F8X, all of the negatives are just conjecture.
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      04-23-2020, 08:40 AM   #413
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You make a great point @Sedan_Clan: the M3 has never been about just straight line speed. Cheaper cars can beat it in a straight line. It's about the complete package.

Yet, you point to straight line speed when it comes to those who clamor for the feel and engagement of an E9X M3 or other past generations. I don't care that a Mustang can walk my F80. But I also don't care that my F80 can walk the E9X M3 by whatever number car lengths you mentioned previously. In both cases other variables contribute to the overall driving experience. I miss my E90 M3 as much as I admire my F80.

Further, I don't agree with your comments about softer M cars. I don't believe the F80 is less soft than the E9X M3s I have owned. I also thought the F90 I drove was stiffer than the other M5s I have driven which includes the e39 I owned (I am not the 20 year old M owner you reference). I think they are actually less comfortable cars than their predecessors. My F80 is more of a scalpel than the E90, but what about the complete package? The steering sucks. It sounds like garbage. Generally, it lacks character. Still a great car.

Herein lies the paradox of the newest BMW Ms: The M division are still sorting these cars for the enthusiast and they are doing an excellent job. These cars are fast and have a terrific chassis. They are the most desirable in their respective class. However, the bread and butter 3 series and 5 series do not have the traits of previous generations. They have lifeless steering and dull character. Here is where the M engineers have struggled. The F80 was faster than the E90, which was to be expected as you pointed out. What was not expected and what shocked many was that it would lose the steering and character. Key ingredients for an engaging driving experience.

CF roof, high revving engine, etc these are more recent traits of M cars and I would argue not key ingredients. I was excited by the prospect of a turbo M car. Loved the N54. The 1 series M from what I've read is an absolute gem as well. That car does not have a CF roof, a high revving engine, CF driveshaft. I doubt those owners care at all. I wouldn't.

When it comes to the G8X, we have yet to see it or drive it. I am withholding my opinion until I do. I am very pleased that BMW will still offer a manual transmission. I find that very encouraging and a key differentiator between this car and its competitors. What is not encouraging is that the DCT has been compromised to save costs. Spin it however you'd like, but it's very disappointing to read that the rev limit is lowered to accommodate a slush box when the DCT is so awesome. When you consider that BMW has been at the forefront of engineering slush box alternatives it becomes even more disappointing. However, it's about the complete package. Let's see how it shakes out.
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      04-23-2020, 08:43 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM3 View Post
You make a great point: the M3 has never been about just straight line speed. Cheaper cars can beat it in a straight line. It's about the complete package.

Yet, you point to straight line speed when it comes to those who clamor for the feel and engagement of an E9X M3 or other past generations. I don't care that a Mustang can walk my F80. But I also don't care that my F80 can walk the E9X M3 by whatever number car lengths you mentioned previously. In both cases other variables contribute to the overall driving experience. I miss my E90 M3 as much as I admire my F80.

Further, I don't agree with your comments about softer M cars. I don't believe the F80 is less soft than the E9X M3s I have owned. I also thought the F90 I drove was stiffer than the other M5s I have driven which includes the e39 I owned (I am not the 20 year old M owner you reference). I think they are actually less comfortable cars than their predecessors. My F80 is more of a scalpel than the E90, but what about the complete package? The steering sucks. It sounds like garbage. Generally, it lacks character. Still a great car.

Herein lies the paradox of the newest BMW Ms: The M division are still sorting these cars for the enthusiast and they are doing an excellent job. These cars are fast and have a terrific chassis. They are the most desirable in their respective class. However, the bread and butter 3 series and 5 series do not have the traits of previous generations. They have lifeless steering and dull character. Here is where the M engineers have struggled. The F80 was faster than the E90, which was to be expected as you pointed out. What was not expected and what shocked many was that it would lose the steering and character. Key ingredients for an engaging driving experience.

CF roof, high revving engine, etc these are more recent traits of M cars and I would argue not key ingredients. I was excited by the prospect of a turbo M car. Loved the N54. The 1 series M from what I've read is an absolute gem as well. That car does not have a CF roof, a high revving engine, CF driveshaft. I doubt those owners care at all. I wouldn't.

When it comes to the G8X, we have yet to see it or drive it. I am withholding my opinion until I do. I am very pleased that BMW will still offer a manual transmission. I find that very encouraging and a key differentiator between this car and its competitors. What is not encouraging is that the DCT has been compromised to save costs. Spin it however you'd like, but it's very disappointing to read that the rev limit is lowered to accommodate a slush box when the DCT is so awesome. When you consider that BMW has been at the forefront of engineering slush box alternatives it becomes even more disappointing. However, it's about the complete package. Let's see how it shakes out.
Well articulated points. Thanks for that.

I appreciate the dialogue. It's great mind exercise when it's civil.
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      04-23-2020, 09:05 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by WWM3 View Post
You make a great point @Sedan_Clan: the M3 has never been about just straight line speed. Cheaper cars can beat it in a straight line. It's about the complete package.

Yet, you point to straight line speed when it comes to those who clamor for the feel and engagement of an E9X M3 or other past generations. I don't care that a Mustang can walk my F80. But I also don't care that my F80 can walk the E9X M3 by whatever number car lengths you mentioned previously. In both cases other variables contribute to the overall driving experience. I miss my E90 M3 as much as I admire my F80.

Further, I don't agree with your comments about softer M cars. I don't believe the F80 is less soft than the E9X M3s I have owned. I also thought the F90 I drove was stiffer than the other M5s I have driven which includes the e39 I owned (I am not the 20 year old M owner you reference). I think they are actually less comfortable cars than their predecessors. My F80 is more of a scalpel than the E90, but what about the complete package? The steering sucks. It sounds like garbage. Generally, it lacks character. Still a great car.

Herein lies the paradox of the newest BMW Ms: The M division are still sorting these cars for the enthusiast and they are doing an excellent job. These cars are fast and have a terrific chassis. They are the most desirable in their respective class. However, the bread and butter 3 series and 5 series do not have the traits of previous generations. They have lifeless steering and dull character. Here is where the M engineers have struggled. The F80 was faster than the E90, which was to be expected as you pointed out. What was not expected and what shocked many was that it would lose the steering and character. Key ingredients for an engaging driving experience.

CF roof, high revving engine, etc these are more recent traits of M cars and I would argue not key ingredients. I was excited by the prospect of a turbo M car. Loved the N54. The 1 series M from what I've read is an absolute gem as well. That car does not have a CF roof, a high revving engine, CF driveshaft. I doubt those owners care at all. I wouldn't.

When it comes to the G8X, we have yet to see it or drive it. I am withholding my opinion until I do. I am very pleased that BMW will still offer a manual transmission. I find that very encouraging and a key differentiator between this car and its competitors. What is not encouraging is that the DCT has been compromised to save costs. Spin it however you'd like, but it's very disappointing to read that the rev limit is lowered to accommodate a slush box when the DCT is so awesome. When you consider that BMW has been at the forefront of engineering slush box alternatives it becomes even more disappointing. However, it's about the complete package. Let's see how it shakes out.
Is an M3 really about the complete package or is it about being “special”. For me, a bit of both where I can sacrifice some of the former for more of the latter and that’s why I’m not a great fan of the path the F80 started but it’s still a very good and likeable car.

That said, the G82 if we buy one is for my wife where the AT and AWD is just what she want so the timing couldn’t be better

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      04-23-2020, 09:39 AM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM3 View Post
You make a great point @Sedan_Clan: the M3 has never been about just straight line speed. Cheaper cars can beat it in a straight line. It's about the complete package.

Yet, you point to straight line speed when it comes to those who clamor for the feel and engagement of an E9X M3 or other past generations. I don't care that a Mustang can walk my F80. But I also don't care that my F80 can walk the E9X M3 by whatever number car lengths you mentioned previously. In both cases other variables contribute to the overall driving experience. I miss my E90 M3 as much as I admire my F80.

Further, I don't agree with your comments about softer M cars. I don't believe the F80 is less soft than the E9X M3s I have owned. I also thought the F90 I drove was stiffer than the other M5s I have driven which includes the e39 I owned (I am not the 20 year old M owner you reference). I think they are actually less comfortable cars than their predecessors. My F80 is more of a scalpel than the E90, but what about the complete package? The steering sucks. It sounds like garbage. Generally, it lacks character. Still a great car.

Herein lies the paradox of the newest BMW Ms: The M division are still sorting these cars for the enthusiast and they are doing an excellent job. These cars are fast and have a terrific chassis. They are the most desirable in their respective class. However, the bread and butter 3 series and 5 series do not have the traits of previous generations. They have lifeless steering and dull character. Here is where the M engineers have struggled. The F80 was faster than the E90, which was to be expected as you pointed out. What was not expected and what shocked many was that it would lose the steering and character. Key ingredients for an engaging driving experience.

CF roof, high revving engine, etc these are more recent traits of M cars and I would argue not key ingredients. I was excited by the prospect of a turbo M car. Loved the N54. The 1 series M from what I've read is an absolute gem as well. That car does not have a CF roof, a high revving engine, CF driveshaft. I doubt those owners care at all. I wouldn't.

When it comes to the G8X, we have yet to see it or drive it. I am withholding my opinion until I do. I am very pleased that BMW will still offer a manual transmission. I find that very encouraging and a key differentiator between this car and its competitors. What is not encouraging is that the DCT has been compromised to save costs. Spin it however you'd like, but it's very disappointing to read that the rev limit is lowered to accommodate a slush box when the DCT is so awesome. When you consider that BMW has been at the forefront of engineering slush box alternatives it becomes even more disappointing. However, it's about the complete package. Let's see how it shakes out.
You and Sedan_Clan make very good points.

My understanding of the basic ///M philosophy, more particularly for the M3(4), is the capability of being a dual use car: as a practical daily driver and as a track toy. It is the one common trait I've seen in all the publicity material since the first M3.

The famous "M characteristics" such as CF roof, high revving engines, power domes, fender arches, DCT, etc.. that so many mention are just elements that were added to the base model of a given generation to achieve the ///M basic goal of a dual use car.

I personally find that each generation has been able to expand on both extremities of that dual use spectrum. Each generation has become a more comfortable, luxurious and practical daily driver all the while becoming a better, faster, more engaging and more reliable track car than the generation it replaced. With more and more M3(4) drivers not using them on track, BMW has even expanded the range of offering within the M3/4 lineup, with the base, Competition, CS and GTS/CSL, to better cater to specific bias of the different individuals in the customer base.

It is that dual use design intent that got me in my first E46 M3 back in 2001 and why I've kept coming back. While not perfect, it is BMW that offered the best car for my needs compared to the competition. As long as this remains, I'll keep coming back.
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      04-23-2020, 09:47 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You and Sedan_Clan make very good points.

My understanding of the basic ///M philosophy, more particularly for the M3(4), is the dual capability of being a dual use car: as practical daily driver and as a track toy. It is the one common trait I've seen in all the publicity material since the first M3.

The famous "M characteristics" such as CF roof, high revving engines, power domes, fender arches, DCT, etc.. that so many mention are just elements that were added to the base model of a given generation to achieve the ///M basic goal of a dual use car.

I personally find that each generation has been able to expand on both extremities of that dual use spectrum. Each generation has become a more comfortable, luxurious and practical daily driver all the while becoming a better, faster, more engaging and more reliable track car than the generation it replaced. With more and more M3(4) drivers not using them on track, BMW has even expanded the range of offering within the M3/4 lineup, with the base, Competition, CS and GTS/CSL, to better cater to specific bias of individuals in the customer base.

It is that dual use intent that got me in my first E46 M3 back in 2001 and why I've kept coming back. While not perfect, it is BMW that offered the best car for my needs compared to the competition. As long as this remains, I'll keep coming back.
Agreed 100%!
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      04-23-2020, 09:51 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You and Sedan_Clan make very good points.

My understanding of the basic ///M philosophy, more particularly for the M3(4), is the dual capability of being a dual use car: as practical daily driver and as a track toy. It is the one common trait I've seen in all the publicity material since the first M3.

The famous "M characteristics" such as CF roof, high revving engines, power domes, fender arches, DCT, etc.. that so many mention are just elements that were added to the base model of a given generation to achieve the ///M basic goal of a dual use car.

I personally find that each generation has been able to expand on both extremities of that dual use spectrum. Each generation has become a more comfortable, luxurious and practical daily driver all the while becoming a better, faster, more engaging and more reliable track car than the generation it replaced. With more and more M3(4) drivers not using them on track, BMW has even expanded the range of offering within the M3/4 lineup, with the base, Competition, CS and GTS/CSL, to better cater to specific bias of individuals in the customer base.

It is that dual use intent that got me in my first E46 M3 back in 2001 and why I've kept coming back. While not perfect, it is BMW that offered the best car for my needs compared to the competition. As long as this remains, I'll keep coming back.
Well said and no doubt the M3 keep getting objectively better at both aspects. The G8X will most likely punish the F8X on the track while being more spacious and more compliant on the road. Will it be more enjoyable though? The AT is one aspect that I think track rats will need to get used to as the FI power delivery was with the F8X.
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