[av689]

Oh no...please
BMW's design is getting more and more bullshit

[J-RO]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Well, there are 3 options at this point:

(1.) BMW is going with the leaked design, confident in their data showing it's going to, at worst, lead to modest sales growth.

(2.) BMW sees a problem coming and is working furiously to get to a more subdued "yellow car" design in place despite the high re-tooling costs; nevertheless they see the risk and know it'll never be cheaper than now.

(3.) They're hoping once released people will focus on the performance and it'll all work out (and if true they HAVE to deliver here - zero room for anything other than performance brilliance)

Since hope isn't a plan, let's us all hope it's #1 or #2 ...


It seems like they're already taking a small future sales hit with people bailing now for other stuff not to mention the reputational risks

there's no way BMW prefers this kind of press to people gushing over the new design, so they better have data that proves this reaction wrong.

With reference to #3, the grille is going on the 4 Series also.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by solstice

The M3 is not a 911 which iconic status mainly stems from the shape of the car. That shape is what a 911 is and without it it’s not a 911. The M3 gets it iconic status mainly from it’s trackability, ergonomics, impressive engines, everyday usability and relative quality not the shape. There is no M3 shape and BMW take full advantage of it and change things up considerably between iterations. It’s still an M3 if it performs like one.

Really?? An M3 isn't characterized by looks. Could have fooled me for the past 2+ decades



The fact that it's not quite as iconic as the 911 doesn't address the fundamental point, which is that radicalized design is not required for ongoing success. The argument that this pending design upheaval is a must denies the success of countless examples currently on the market.

They don't have to do it, but they are doing it. And that's why so many long-time M enthusiasts feel like sending an FU right back. Hopefully, by the way, to a productive end. It's not just pointless bitching. This wouldn't be the first time a loyal customer base has convinced a performance car co. to change course.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Can you imagine if there's no design change from the leak AND the car is not an over-the-top wow as a driver's car?

I can imagine it. Perhaps "style" over substance is the plan.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

One point I should menation is that many feel that this is pandering to China. Whereas there is a certain truth in some of that theory.
The demand for more presence , more luxury, and a level of bespoke-ness is also being driven by European,North American and Middle East customers.
It's BMW reacting to market demands.

[seepete753]

Originally Posted by J-RO

With reference to #3 the grille is going on the straight 4 series also.

This. I keep hearing people here say “who cares what it looks like as long at it’s a drivers car” however the plain Jane 4er will NOT be a drivers car and will look even worse that this car (even less aggressive bumper/aero pack). Where’s the excuse for that car’s selling point? That it’s a BMW? No ones going to buy an ugly car that drives horribly and that’s exactly what the new 4er will be.

[TR930]

Originally Posted by basscadet

BMW has to deliver to the tastes of the non-Western market. Big, bold, and brash sells cars in those markets which are more important now.

BINGO

[solstice]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Really?? An M3 isn't characterized by looks. Could have fooled me for the past 2+ decades

We only know these are M3s since we know the look of each iteration individually. There is no unique shape of an M3 or design element that will clearly identify a new car as an M3. The quad exhaust some might say? The E30 doesn’t have it. The grille? Absolutely not, the E30’s doesn’t resemble any of the others. The E36 and the E30 are generally a huge change of shape and design elements. Likely larger than the overall F80 to G80 change will be. Just another sign that the design has become increasingly stale. It is time for a little shake up.

With a 911 there is never any doubt. You know immediately that it’s a 911 by it’s shape so Porsche can never mess with it. The shape is iconic.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by solstice

We only know these are M3s since we know the look of each iteration individually. There is no unique shape of an M3 or design element that will clearly identify a new car as an M3. The quad exhaust some might say? The E30 doesn't have it. The grille? Absolutely not, the E30's doesn't resemble any of the others. The E36 and the E30 are generally a huge change of shape and design elements. Likely larger than the overall F80 to G80 change will be. Just another sign that the design has become increasingly stale. It is time for a little shake up.

With a 911 there is never any doubt. You know immediately that it's a 911 by it's shape so Porsche can never mess with it. The shape is iconic.

Much like a VW Beetle. The shape is consistent throughout the years.

[Kryptos]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Really?? An M3 isn't characterized by looks. Could have fooled me for the past 2+ decades



The fact that it's not quite as iconic as the 911 doesn't address the fundamental point, which is that radicalized design is not required for ongoing success. The argument that this pending design upheaval is a must denies the success of countless examples currently on the market.

They don't have to do it, but they are doing it. And that's why so many long-time M enthusiasts feel like sending an FU right back. Hopefully, by the way, to a productive end. It's not just pointless bitching. This wouldn't be the first time a loyal customer base has convinced a performance car co. to change course.

I think the above picture actually belies the point you're trying to make. 99.9% of the population looks at that image and shrugs as they just see a bunch of vanilla 3 Series cars. It's also a reminder that most of these models had very little competition in the segment. Today is different and for better or worse, BMW wants ordinary people to know an M3 from a 330i and for non-ordinary people, they feel they need to do something beyond great driving dynamics to compete and attract the next generation of buyers (i.e. not the people who bought and still pine for those M3s of yesteryear). However enthusiastic, the small population of current owners isn't a big enough market to support the M division over the next 15+ years. Most who focus on performance over aesthetics will stay and, while this certainly isn't true for everyone on this forum, if you do hate this design, there's a reasonable chance that it simply means you're not the target demo anymore.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Much like a VW Beetle. The shape is consistent throughout the years.

Yes, they are prisoners of their own design success. They have to evolve and can never really change.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Kryptos

I think the above picture actually belies the point you're trying to make. 99.9% of the population looks at that image and shrugs as they just see a bunch of vanilla 3 Series cars. It's also a reminder that most of these models had very little competition in the segment. Today is different and for better or worse, BMW wants ordinary people to know an M3 from a 330i and for non-ordinary people, they feel they need to do something beyond great driving dynamics to compete and attract the next generation of buyers (i.e. not the people who bought and still pine for those M3s of yesteryear). However enthusiastic, the small population of current owners isn't a big enough market to support the M division over the next 15+ years. Most who focus on performance over aesthetics will stay and, while this certainly isn't true for everyone on this forum, if you do hate this design, there's a reasonable chance that it simply means you're not the target demo anymore.

Excellent post. Your reasoning is fundamentally sound.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

It seems like they're already taking a small future sales hit with people bailing now for other stuff not to mention the reputational risks

there's no way BMW prefers this kind of press to people gushing over the new design, so they better have data that proves this reaction wrong.

I agree. When the M4 Concept was revealed, I was all like...



Now I'm like, who else can I give my money too. Or simply, I won't be giving my money to BMW, at least for this car. I'm not the only here with that opinion, and that is significant.

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

An alternative theory......



...BMW is fully aware of itself as a motoring company, and fully aware that this new design language was going to be polarizing and provocative. It was going to turn traditional design expectations of the company on its head. They've been looking at this design for over two years. Do people really believe that a company like BMW didn't expect this knee jerk reaction!?!? That was rhetorical. The people that run BMW aren't idiots even if members of the forum enjoy believing that is the case. That's not to suggest that they hit the target every time, but much of what goes on behind the scenes we are not privy to. Whatever analytical prowess they've employed to get to this point in their design language across the model range has some merit.

Going to ahead and have to disagree with you here. Just because a corporation agrees on something doesn't make it a good decision. There are numerous examples throughout history of corporations making very poor decisions and then having to back track. The Coke example is a perfect one.

Groupthink is not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Kryptos

However enthusiastic, the small population of current owners isn't a big enough market to support the M division over the next 15+ years. Most who focus on performance over aesthetics will stay and, while this certainly isn't true for everyone on this forum, if you do hate this design, there's a reasonable chance that it simply means you're not the target demo anymore.

Let's face it, M buyers in general don't support BMW or the M division monetarily. That's why BMW is making lots and lots of SUVs. One can say and has been said here multiple times that's why the M logo is on almost every vehicle BMW makes now as well.

Your typical M buyer (at least in this forum) doesn't buy an M3/4 because it screams look at me. It's subdued, blends in. Unless you're an enthusiast, most people can't tell the difference. That's actually a part I like about my M3. It isn't a Lambo (not that I can afford one anyways). The target audience that only cares about the M badge, well, that's again why there are so many M performance models.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I agree. When the M4 Concept was revealed, I was all like...

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/sDcfxFDozb3bO/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Now I'm like, who else can I give my money too. Or simply, I won't be giving my money to BMW, at least for this car. I'm not the only here with that opinion, and that is significant.

Going to ahead and have to disagree with you here. Just because a corporation agrees on something doesn't make it a good decision. There are numerous examples throughout history of corporations making very poor decisions and then having to back track. The Coke example is a perfect one.

Groupthink is not a good thing.

Let's face it, M buyers in general don't support BMW or the M division monetarily. That's why BMW is making lots and lots of SUVs. One can say and has been said here multiple times that's why the M logo is on almost every vehicle BMW makes now as well.

Your typical M buyer (at least in this forum) doesn't buy an M3/4 because it screams look at me. It's subdued, blends in. Unless you're an enthusiast, most people can't tell the difference. That's actually a part I like about my M3. It isn't a Lambo (not that I can afford one anyways). The target audience that only cares about the M badge, well, that's again why there are so many M performance models.

I've already addressed the "good/bad decision" argument in another post. Nobody here knows and nobody here is a fortune teller. It is way too early to say either way, but pitchfork slinging, herd mentality is equally as bad as, or tantamount to, the groupthink you reference(d).

[///Mthusiast]

Originally Posted by Kryptos

I think the above picture actually belies the point you're trying to make. 99.9% of the population looks at that image and shrugs as they just see a bunch of vanilla 3 Series cars. It's also a reminder that most of these models had very little competition in the segment. Today is different and for better or worse, BMW wants ordinary people to know an M3 from a 330i and for non-ordinary people, they feel they need to do something beyond great driving dynamics to compete and attract the next generation of buyers (i.e. not the people who bought and still pine for those M3s of yesteryear). However enthusiastic, the small population of current owners isn't a big enough market to support the M division over the next 15+ years. Most who focus on performance over aesthetics will stay and, while this certainly isn't true for everyone on this forum, if you do hate this design, there's a reasonable chance that it simply means you're not the target demo anymore.

Absolutely agree that BMW needs a shakeup in their exterior and interior design philosophy. But have you seen the general public's reaction to the concept 4? If you think we're being harsh here, wait till you see what the rest of the world thinks.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by ///Mthusiast

Absolutely agree that BMW needs a shakeup in their exterior and interior design philosophy. But have you seen the general public's reaction to the concept 4? If you think we're being harsh here, wait till you see what the rest of the world thinks.

....but what will you and others say IF the car sells well and is regaled for being a terrific driver's car?

[solstice]

“Your typical M buyer (at least in this forum) doesn't buy an M3/4 because it screams look at me. It's subdued, blends in”

That likely describe your typical M5 buyer. The M3 on the other hand was conceived to be a race car platform with a big wing and all. There was nothing subdued about it and I don’t think the majority of BMW buyers mind a race car inspired look of the M3. Fender flares are never going to blend in and whenever they are spotted or grow bigger I hear nothing but cheers

You view has some merit though in that today the M3 occupy a range covering both the original M3 and M5. It is big, comfy, practical and luxurious while still have solid track credentials. So maybe the M5 end of buyers do want it to be more subdued.

[XavVD]

I scanned a bit through the discussion but could not find any comment in line with my theory.
I believe the big grille will be there, but to me this picture looks like a fake.
The recess on the hood seems exaggerated compared to the one between the kidney grilles on top of the bumper. They don't seem to match.
So I bet on a Photoshopped pic and that the actual design will be much more elegant than that (see 4 series concept).
Also the grilles look too far away from the 4 concept:
-the tapered shape on the top is missing and
- it goes way lower than the concept at the bottom, and
- they are not merged, which is opposite the new design direction.
Why no reaction from BMW: because they have orchestrated it or if not they know people will feel relieved when they see the real stuff.
NB: I might be completely wrong

[solstice]

Originally Posted by XavVD

I scanned a bit through the discussion but could not find any comment in line with my theory.
I believe the big grille will be there, but to me this picture looks like a fake.
The recess on the hood seems exaggerated compared to the one between the kidney grilles on top of the bumper. They don't seem to match.
So I bet on a Photoshopped pic and that the actual design will be much more elegant than that (see 4 series concept).
Also the grilles look too far away from the 4 concept:
-the tapered shape on the top is missing and
- it goes way lower than the concept at the bottom, and
- they are not merged, which is opposite the new design direction.
Why no reaction from BMW: because they have orchestrated it or if not they know people will feel released when they see the real stuff.
NB: I might be completely wrong

Everything about the picture’s environment is unflattering, lightning, color of the car, lack of width perception due to obstacles etc. but I truly believe it’s a real photo of a real pre-production M3. That said I think seeing the whole car in a better environment will make it look quite different and better than seeing just these few elements in the picture.

[Kryptos]

Originally Posted by ///Mthusiast

Absolutely agree that BMW needs a shakeup in their exterior and interior design philosophy. But have you seen the general public's reaction to the concept 4? If you think we're being harsh here, wait till you see what the rest of the world thinks.

My reaction to the concept 4 was the same. I think it's awful. Not because it's big, because it's just poorly incorporated into the rest of the car (and anything with thick chrome borders makes me cringe).

Big grilles aren't an issue at all if they're done right and I don't think the spy shot looks anything like the concept 4, thankfully. Maybe I'll hate the final product, but that still won't alter the veracity of anything I stated above.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I've already addressed the "good/bad decision" argument in another post. Nobody here knows and nobody here is a fortune teller. It is way too early to say either way, but pitchfork slinging, herd mentality is equally as bad as, or tantamount to, the groupthink you reference(d).

I'm not hating the car because of "likes" or because someone told me I shouldn't like the design. Are there people jumping on the hate bandwagon, sure. To call the majority of opinions not liking this design "herd mentality" is downplaying and frankly white washing it. Oh, only so many people hate this design because of herd mentality. That's an attempt to make people's personal opinion less important.

Originally Posted by solstice

“Your typical M buyer (at least in this forum) doesn't buy an M3/4 because it screams look at me. It's subdued, blends in”

That likely describe your typical M5 buyer. The M3 on the other hand was conceived to be a race car platform with a big wing and all.

Conceived, sure. Produced, no. Except for some one offs, the standard M3 has been fairly subdued. Yes, the E30 had big fender flares, my F80 M3 has some wide hips, but that's it. The GTS has a wing but we can all agree that's not your standard M3.

If BMW wanted to make a splash, I'd rather they put a big wing on instead of this fascia. At least with a wing, I can take it off and fill the holes.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I'm not hating the car because of "likes" or because someone told me I shouldn't like the design. Are there people jumping on the hate bandwagon, sure. To call the majority of opinions not liking this design "herd mentality" is downplaying and frankly white washing it. Oh, only so many people hate this design because of herd mentality. That's an attempt to make people's personal opinion less important.

Conceived, sure. Produced, no. Except for some one offs, the standard M3 has been fairly subdued. Yes, the E30 had big fender flares, my F80 M3 has some wide hips, but that's it. The GTS has a wing but we can all agree that's not your standard M3.

If BMW wanted to make a splash, I'd rather they put a big wing on instead of this fascia. At least with a wing, I can take it off and fill the holes.

I was merely stating that it happens, not necessarily that you are guilty of it or that people's opinions are unimportant.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by solstice

Everything about the picture’s environment is unflattering, lightning, color of the car, lack of width perception due to obstacles etc. but I truly believe it’s a real photo of a real pre-production M3. That said I think seeing the whole car in a better environment will make it look quite different and better than seeing just these few elements in the picture.

Though it is certainly possible that some finish on top of the grille is stil missing, which might blend the two halves together and/or change the outward appearance etc.