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      09-27-2020, 07:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Here are the facts from the source:
What I posted is also a fact, and a current fact: CR rates the Model 3 quite a bit higher overall than the 3-series.

The Model 3’s predicted reliability (“average”) is also much better than the 3 Series’ (“much worse than average”)

So, if you want to use CR as a resource, the Tesla is the clear choice, even moreso when owner satisfaction is added to the equation.
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      09-27-2020, 08:41 PM   #46
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What I posted is also a fact, and a current fact: CR rates the Model 3 quite a bit higher overall than the 3-series.

The Model 3’s predicted reliability (“average”) is also much better than the 3 Series’ (“much worse than average”)

So, if you want to use CR as a resource, the Tesla is the clear choice, even moreso when owner satisfaction is added to the equation.
Take a longer view. The current new gen 3 Series had start up issues for a new model in a new plant. This is typical of almost all launches. Prior years are not rated as such, and even in the detail, it is clear that most subsytems are two green arrows up with two exceptions. If Tesla had the same kind of issues BMW or any other OEM faces, it would have been a much different situation and they would have been resolved much sooner. Their improvement is only recent. Great that they are improving, but no overlooking the lengthy periods of poor assembly and the poor designs which Model Y is now becoming known for improving upon (other than sourcing Home Depot for engine parts).

As for owner satisfaction, that is hardly a relevant measure for others who are first considering a purchase unless they know that they have the same set of requirements and criteria for making a choice. The Tesla Model 3 owner body is a self-selecting group who has prioritized one of the motivations I mentioned in an earlier post over issues of quality they discerned but chose to overlook (as one Tesla owner-poster here has already mentioned) or they may have not noticed any of these issues or hoped they would be resolved or that they "got a good one". History is littered with low quality vehicles with high owner satisfaction because some other aspect of the vehicle excited the buyers enough to suppress concerns about quality....Dodge Viper, most Jaguars, and others.

As to making a choice, even from a static point of view, the choice was quite clear when I was in the market. Find me a BMW with hoods, fenders, and doors that obviously don't align, paint drip mark on a rear quarter panel, wrinkled headliner, rubber seals that don't align with the body. Those are not the kinds of issues established OEMs face with new launches. That is assembly 101, and they clearly failed.

I don't mind having this chat, but I sense this is more about defending your purchase than an objective review of Tesla's attempt to launch a new car company on their own. I am glad you like your car and find it satisfactory. Many did not share those feelings. I am glad they are improving. No value in rooting for them to fail. They had my deposit for almost a year as I was ready to trust them. They lost my trust when I saw what they were producing. If they do a better job in the future, no reason not to consider them again.

I think we've both made all of our points. Good luck and enjoy your car.
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      09-28-2020, 09:47 AM   #47
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Take a longer view. Good luck and enjoy your car.
The true "longer view" would acknowledge that the same start-up issues you're giving BMW a "pass" on were present at Tesla, and that the same "few small issues" situation also applied to the Model 3 at one point.

I don't need to justify my purchase decision to anyone, nor do I need to rationalize it.

What I will do though is call out hypocrisy, such as quoting only sound-bites that support a specific point of view without acknowledging the larger reality of the situation.

All that said, Happy motoring!
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      09-28-2020, 11:44 AM   #48
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The true "longer view" would acknowledge that the same start-up issues you're giving BMW a "pass" on were present at Tesla, and that the same "few small issues" situation also applied to the Model 3 at one point.

I don't need to justify my purchase decision to anyone, nor do I need to rationalize it.

What I will do though is call out hypocrisy, such as quoting only sound-bites that support a specific point of view without acknowledging the larger reality of the situation.

All that said, Happy motoring!
I thought we were winding this down, prior to the "hypocrisy" comment.

The issues that the amateurs at Tesla self-inflicted were not similar in scope, intensity, duration, nor inability to correct quickly as compared to almost anyone else in the industry. Much written about this is searchable online, especially by tear-down experts. I recall one comparison in body construction of Model 3 to a "1990's Kia". (In fairness, those reports have improved with Model Y, apparently better designed, although assembly remains a major challenge.)

When in history has CR ever had to withdraw a recommendation for another car due to excessive quality defect reports?

Some corroborating evidence in this link of Tesla's unique accomplishments as noted by owners, perhaps more clear-eyed than some other owners.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/pre...lity-study-iqs

Now that this has reached pointlessness, may it rest? You are happy with your car and Tesla built an unusually large volume of poor ones. Both are true.
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      09-28-2020, 12:53 PM   #49
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Agree again. I would have much preferred letting Tesla apply my $1000 deposit to a high quality car I would now have had for a few years. At least, they got the refund handled correctly. The Model 3 display car I saw, as well as others I would look at as they became more popular, were just too poorly made to be acceptable. Model 3 forum posts were full of sad stories and photos. Tear-down analyses and CR owner data confirmed it. Going "EV-fast" wasn't important enough for this family car to offset all the other problems. I wound up with my 330i instead that has been perfect for three years on lease, so I just bought it with a spectacular offer from BMWFS. When that goes, an EV is next, and the choices will be enough to find a high quality source, preferably an i4, but could be others.
Same! In a 330i lease waiting to see what happens in the EV world. Hoping there are options to choose from in 3yrs. i4M would be sweet.
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      09-28-2020, 01:39 PM   #50
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I thought we were winding this down, prior to the "hypocrisy" comment...
Hmmmm - so you thought a unilateral statement constituted an agreement? LOL!

JD Power - yes, by all means take their "report" as gospel. Enjoy the Dodge you purchase as a result of their results/placement
/s
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      09-28-2020, 02:11 PM   #51
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Hmmmm - so you thought a unilateral statement constituted an agreement? LOL!

JD Power - yes, by all means take their "report" as gospel. Enjoy the Dodge you purchase as a result of their results/placement
/s
"Winding down" has no implication of agreement. It simply means bringing this to an end.

I am in no way a prospect for the Dodge brand. But blindness to what the JDP data reveals also helps explain excessive openness to what Tesla does far less well. FCA has simply demonstrated that engineering vehicles designed for assembly and instituting a repeatable robust process in the plant results in vehicles with fewer defects. Not a complicated idea and unrelated to liking or not liking their particular flavor of vehicles. Tesla is at the literal opposite end of the defect scale, as their very own owners reported to JDP. How can anyone accept them running to Home Depot for wood pieces to mount powertrain components in Model Y? Beneath amateur status. I have zero personal interest in a Charger, Challenger, etc, but if one were to wager on the results of a side by side quality audit of a random new Charger vs. a random new Model 3, there is no doubt where the "smart money" would be. Others would be at the bottom of the scale.
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      09-28-2020, 03:00 PM   #52
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I am in no way a prospect for the Dodge brand. But blindness to what the JDP data reveals also helps explain excessive openness to what Tesla does far less well. FCA has simply demonstrated that engineering vehicles designed for assembly and instituting a repeatable robust process in the plant results in vehicles with fewer defects ...
FCA has demonstrated that by building the same basic sh*t for years with no substantive changes, it can *finally* screw some vehicles together acceptably well, but that says virtually nothing about their quality.

I rented a Challenger Hemi recently - absolute piece of caca. The paint was pathetic, it was loud and slow, the interior rental-car grade and the handling abysmal. JD Power can suggest that its lack of defects are "quality", but that misses the point. It's junk, and old junk at that.

You repeat the same tired cliches about Tesla quality that are parroted on every non-Tesla-specific forum - it's laughable really, or would be if it weren't so pathetic and transparent.

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      09-28-2020, 03:42 PM   #53
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FCA has demonstrated that by building the same basic sh*t for years with no substantive changes, it can *finally* screw some vehicles together acceptably well, but that says virtually nothing about their quality.

I rented a Challenger Hemi recently - absolute piece of caca. The paint was pathetic, it was loud and slow, the interior rental-car grade and the handling abysmal. JD Power can suggest that its lack of defects are "quality", but that misses the point. It's junk, and old junk at that.

You repeat the same tired cliches about Tesla quality that are parroted on every non-Tesla-specific forum - it's laughable really, or would be if it weren't so pathetic and transparent.
Quality has a range of definitions, from variance to specification to consumer perception of material cost. Your view appears exceedingly narrow. If the product meets its design and assembly specifications and performs as such, it has quality. If you happen not to like those design objectives at the product target cost, your personal opinion has no impact on the ability to objectively achieve quality. The industry also apparently finds your opinion unpersuasive in defining quality. Rent something else.

As an early potential Tesla buyer, until they demonstrated their array of failures, much of my information originally came from a Tesla forum that I long since abandoned. Lots of unhappy folks there. Labeling the variety of complaints in whatever derogatory terms that come naturally to you doesn't undermine their validity.

Again, glad you like your car. One day, they may make more well enough for the rest of us to agree.

Have the last word....I'm done.
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      09-28-2020, 04:19 PM   #54
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If the product meets its design and assembly specifications and performs as such, it has quality.
By your definition, this would be considered a quality product - after all, it does exactly what the design brief and description say it will - it drives:




And you're right - we're done.
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      09-30-2020, 11:11 AM   #55
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Solid points and on par with how I feel about the brand!



Reading a forum is just as good as reading a magazine review or consumer reports. There is a reason why Tesla constantly falls off its "recommended list".





Valid points. A few takeaways.

Time and quality should never be associated in the statement. Think about it. Quality is built into the product, time does not build quality. Especially since panel stamping and automotive engineering have been around for a century. This argument can be made with new technology such as batteries and drive units as the processes were freshly developed. So with that said, Tesla QC will only improve when they decide to improve the process, not as time goes on.

As for the Tech, I agree, it's a tough road ahead for traditional manufacturers and they are at a clear disadvantage - they also have more lose than Tesla ever has.
My thought being that as assembly procedures improve, items like panel alignment, paint, etc., should improve over time. Also design issues can be addressed as more cars are produced. (Although GM and the Corvette are still plagued with cosmetic problems and design flaws).

I would concur if a company knows assembly procedures are sub standard or a design has problems and does nothing to improve them. I don't think Tesla operates that way. Often times it takes real world operation of vehicles to uncover flaws and faults (especially with a company as young as Tesla).

I saw a video of a Model 3 taken apart by Sandy Munro and recommendations made to improve assembly and quality. Tesla took that advice and instituted many of the recommendations. They would be foolish not to.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/08/tesla...sharing-parts/

Many of these improvements take time to implement. Redesign and manufacturing procedures have to be adjusted or completely redesigned, all while continuing to produce cars.

As with all car makers, problems in design or production are discovered and manufacturing is improved on the go. Buyers may get a car with the old design while later production will have the necessary changes.

I suppose we each have our own perspective on things. I cannot imagine any company that produces a product not wanting to improve quality going forward (if improvements are required) unless they are truly nefarious. I do not believe Tesla is happy with the complaints they are receiving and won't take steps to improve.

Just my $.02
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      10-02-2020, 10:22 AM   #56
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Tesla creeps me out, so keep that in mind when I say the below

They have pushed final QA audit to the dealer/distributor level, which means the customer gets to see how the sausage gets made on rework, which is a new experience for some, and grosses people out, and a huge turnoff for people who are used to BMW-levels of screwed together perfection leaving the factory.

But, I have a lot of enthusiast friends with Model 3's now. Like, dozens. People who know better than to fanboy out just because they have a car. They, almost down to a man, are thrilled with the cars. They track them, autocross them, do all kinds of normal car shit in them and I just polled several of them to get their takes on what has broken and how delivery went beacuse I'm thinking about grabbing one myself. Despite the creepy vibes, IMO Model 3 is the best EV product on the market by a mile, and much like my E90M, I think it hits a sweet spot between performance, practicality, and size/packaging/form factor that might make it the best car on sale at ANY price right now. But it's also a rolling surveillance device, and can take control completely out of the driver's hands, and is subject to the whims of OTA updates, and tat creeps me the F out. So I'm still on the fence.

All of the delivery issues my friends had, and there were many (panel gaps and missing parts, lol no spoiler no problem just ship it!) were resolved. Most of them resolved via housecalls from rolling Tesla service truck techs. One person reported a rattle that had to be fixed at the dealer a couple months in. One person reported a weird HVAC issue. One person with a 2018 had a screen fail.

Nobody else reported any failures. And not one of them has needed to have oil changed, or walnut blasting, or whatever. Drive it, plug it in, repeat.

Like BMW, they have some stinkers. Model X is...well we've all seen one in the wild. Whatever, it does some cool stuff at the expensve of being particularly practical as a big car, but to each his own, the X6M exists, who am I to judge. Model S is 8 years into its model run and finally somewhat reliable, but the early cars were a shit show. My FIL's 2014 85 always has some issue or another, very "used BMW 7-series".

But, the Model 3 is not the Model S and it's not the Model X. They nailed it, and they're only two years into production, with more updates coming (heat pump being a big one). If they can do it again with the Y, which I think is still an open question, they're off to the races.

BMW's weaknesses (slow to market, painstaking testing, converting production lines via ship in a bottle re-vamping at Munich rather than greenfield new plants in the desert) on this front might end up being their strengths. They have one of the best production workforces in the world, Honda being the closest analogue but somehow Honda has never achieved the margins BMW has with Acura. They are the one company I trust to meet or exceed Tesla's value propoition on their own turf, while also offering a product that is much more familiar and ergonomically sensible, and with a gigantic network of dealers who are adept at squeezing a lot of money out of a lease. I hope they nail it too. This monopoly Tesla is starting to develop is not good for anybody. I think if BMW can't catch Tesla, it's because they have such a huge lead that's it not technically feasible to catch them and still have any hope of turning a profit.
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      10-05-2020, 10:06 AM   #57
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Tesla creeps me out, so keep that in mind when I say the below

They have pushed final QA audit to the dealer/distributor level, which means the customer gets to see how the sausage gets made on rework, which is a new experience for some, and grosses people out, and a huge turnoff for people who are used to BMW-levels of screwed together perfection leaving the factory.

But, I have a lot of enthusiast friends with Model 3's now. Like, dozens. People who know better than to fanboy out just because they have a car. They, almost down to a man, are thrilled with the cars. They track them, autocross them, do all kinds of normal car shit in them and I just polled several of them to get their takes on what has broken and how delivery went beacuse I'm thinking about grabbing one myself. Despite the creepy vibes, IMO Model 3 is the best EV product on the market by a mile, and much like my E90M, I think it hits a sweet spot between performance, practicality, and size/packaging/form factor that might make it the best car on sale at ANY price right now. But it's also a rolling surveillance device, and can take control completely out of the driver's hands, and is subject to the whims of OTA updates, and tat creeps me the F out. So I'm still on the fence.

All of the delivery issues my friends had, and there were many (panel gaps and missing parts, lol no spoiler no problem just ship it!) were resolved. Most of them resolved via housecalls from rolling Tesla service truck techs. One person reported a rattle that had to be fixed at the dealer a couple months in. One person reported a weird HVAC issue. One person with a 2018 had a screen fail.

Nobody else reported any failures. And not one of them has needed to have oil changed, or walnut blasting, or whatever. Drive it, plug it in, repeat.

Like BMW, they have some stinkers. Model X is...well we've all seen one in the wild. Whatever, it does some cool stuff at the expensve of being particularly practical as a big car, but to each his own, the X6M exists, who am I to judge. Model S is 8 years into its model run and finally somewhat reliable, but the early cars were a shit show. My FIL's 2014 85 always has some issue or another, very "used BMW 7-series".

But, the Model 3 is not the Model S and it's not the Model X. They nailed it, and they're only two years into production, with more updates coming (heat pump being a big one). If they can do it again with the Y, which I think is still an open question, they're off to the races.

BMW's weaknesses (slow to market, painstaking testing, converting production lines via ship in a bottle re-vamping at Munich rather than greenfield new plants in the desert) on this front might end up being their strengths. They have one of the best production workforces in the world, Honda being the closest analogue but somehow Honda has never achieved the margins BMW has with Acura. They are the one company I trust to meet or exceed Tesla's value propoition on their own turf, while also offering a product that is much more familiar and ergonomically sensible, and with a gigantic network of dealers who are adept at squeezing a lot of money out of a lease. I hope they nail it too. This monopoly Tesla is starting to develop is not good for anybody. I think if BMW can't catch Tesla, it's because they have such a huge lead that's it not technically feasible to catch them and still have any hope of turning a profit.

I think you pretty much nailed it.

The rolling surveillance device is pretty accurate, but most everything we use now is stealing our privacy. I'd rather not be tracked or surveiled however I've come to accept that as a part of my 21st century American life. More and more manufacturers are incorporating that tech into their cars (and every other "smart" gadget we buy), so welcome to Orwell's 1984.

I'm not nearly as anal about my cars as some others. As long as the car looks okay and functions as advertised, I'm pretty accepting. None of my cars are acquired for long term relationships. I keep then for a 3-5 years and get something else. I've had more than a few that were disappointments, but these were traded off earlier than normal.

I always buy my cars new, so there is a warranty and coverage for any defects that may pop up during ownership. I've looked at buyer recommendations for used Porsches, Ferraris, and exotics (as new car pries for these are a bit to rich for my blood). The list of expensive stuff that can and does go wrong (and are known issues) on those extremely pricey cars puts me off from buying one.

IMO, The Model 3 has a few off putting features. The single screen that controls everything and the CC card key. Both of which I think I could learn to live with. I do like the i4's set up much better.

Overall, owner satisfaction of Tesla's is pretty high compared to other cars. As more Ev's become available, those that dislike Musk and his cars will have other choices.
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      10-05-2020, 05:11 PM   #58
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https://jalopnik.com/brand-new-tesla...ign=2020-10-05
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      10-06-2020, 06:25 AM   #59
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      10-06-2020, 06:30 AM   #60
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      10-06-2020, 08:55 AM   #61
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No point in debating further the difference between routine occasional quality issues that afflict all from Toyota on down versus those on the bottom continuously failing the basics, but for others reading along, this has apparently spread from politics to automotive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatab...n%20propaganda.
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      10-06-2020, 10:57 AM   #62
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...but for others reading along...
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disingenuous
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      10-06-2020, 12:40 PM   #63
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No point in debating further the difference between routine occasional quality issues that afflict all from Toyota on down versus those on the bottom continuously failing the basics, but for others reading along, this has apparently spread from politics to automotive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatab...n%20propaganda.
Dude, I have multiple friends wtih Model 3's who wouldn't BS me about their experience. None of them regrets the purchase. They run the gamut from literal old grandma to occasional racecar driver like me. They also all admit that you have to adapt to the new experience a bit, and it's not always intuitive. The analogy I've heard that best sums it up is going from blackberry to the early iphone, man that touch keyboard sucked but the phone could do so many other things so well it blew the lid off the whole phone market.

Tesla fucks up quite a bit, but, so do all the other manufacturers. That's sorta why this website exists, and why car forums exist in the first place, I was there at the beginning and for the most part we started sharing info because everybody was getting ripped off at dealer service departments and had no recourse but an indy mechanic or just ripping into it with a Bentley or Helms manual. The before-times sucked for working on expensive German shit.
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      10-06-2020, 02:45 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Tesla fucks up quite a bit, but, so do all the other manufacturers.
I don't doubt your reports, and am not at all surprised that owners of something as avant-garde as Tesla cars are very enthusiastic about being pioneers. But, the attempt at equivalency above is exactly the "whataboutism" fallacy. Yes, all other manufacturers build vehicles with problems; no manufacturer has a zero defect record. But, no, all others do not fail at the rate or in the basic simplicity of Tesla failures, e.g. bumpers falling off in the rain, sunroof blowing off, body panels that don't fit, last-minute wood parts to support powertrain parts, not to mention the more complex failures of chips over-writing themselves to death and vehicle standstill, etc., etc., etc.

EDIT: No sooner had I finished this post than my cousin in Santa Monica who bought and sold his Model 3 in one year (it couldn't come close to the claimed or displayed available range, he told me) sent me this link. Apparently, the "ready, fire, aim" corporate culture affects other divisions. I hope Space X continues to do as well as it has been.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/06/tesla...rps-nightmare/
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Last edited by Sportstick; 10-06-2020 at 03:12 PM..
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      10-06-2020, 04:04 PM   #65
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https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...42923-9999.pdf

LOL - yep, legacy manufacturers don't have problems similar to Tesla's - they're actually far worse at times.

BMW HPFP, anyone?

How about major engine component failure - BMW has that too, which led to the above-mentioned warranty extension.

Or our Q5 TDi's emissions (non-) control system...

It's beyond disingenuous to suggest that legacy mfrs. don't have serious issues from time to time.

But some people are only interested in denigrating brands they don't like - not in the truth of the larger situation.

Given that the 3-series is the most-traded luxury model on the Model 3, it's ironic that a 3-series owner would suggest that those former owners don't know automotive excellence when they see it....

Last edited by ZCD1; 10-06-2020 at 04:16 PM..
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      10-06-2020, 04:33 PM   #66
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