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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions 2019 BMW 3 Series G20 handling improvements deep dive

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      11-12-2018, 11:48 PM   #45
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If the m3 goes awd, 335/340 is done.
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      11-12-2018, 11:50 PM   #46
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Just wondering. Since it talks about chassis.. would G20s have same squeeking problem when going over bumps etc like F30s. M3s do it too
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      11-13-2018, 02:30 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Alden_88M View Post
We have these controllers here in Sweden after three year you have to go and inspect your car to be approved for driving on the roads otherwise you ain't allowed to drive if you don't inspect the car and get it approved by official authority or the car won't be road legal.

And they all say the same thing all that protection under new cars especially the cars from Asian parts of the world that protection when removed for inspections is just a horror show after three years loads of cars are damaged by the winter so heavily that they are considered a road hazard.

Sometimes those skid bars can cover up a lot of damage that is done during winter time because that's the part you cant reach to clean when washing the underneath of the car.

When i get my new car after this X1 the first thing i will do is go for a complete rust treatment beneath the car so it can withstand the winters a lot better.

The picture below is the picture of my former work car, now imagine the underside of the car and the parts you can't reach.

What are you trying to show me here? Correct me if I'm wrong but there's just some road grime on the side of that car. The side of that work van looks pretty new to me.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but aluminum does not rust. Literally the only type of metal that rusts is iron or iron alloys like steel. Aluminum control arms may develop surface corrosion that does not affect performance at all. Aluminum is much more preferable to steel control arms in cold climates as steel will rust easily.
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      11-13-2018, 06:46 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpgray View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by otay View Post
Not sure electric assist can ever feel like hydraulic steering. But if it's 10% better than F30, I'm OK with that.
But the F30 was 64% less feel so a partial gain. Although I liked the E9x, I have grown accustomed to the F30 and the ease in grocery parking lots and gas stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
I’m surprised everyone is clamoring for E90 steering. I had a E90 335i RWD with 704 M Sport suspension and remember everyone complaining about the pothole explosions. It just goes to show that no one is ever happy with they have.
The E9x was great at forward driving speeds but too stiff in parking lot. or turning into my driveway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
By my math, if the torque correction is the correct metric the f gen lost 64% of steering feel and the G20 has gained 10% back of the f. Thus, you're looking at a 4% improvement from e92 to g20.

It seems it would be easier to slap a force feedback system on to the rack and record it and have the feedback add the input to match like a racing sim set up would use.
I think in simpler terms:
F30 has 64% less steering feel than E9x
G20 has 60% less steering feel than E9x
Hmmmm, I suppose it is tracking in the right direction...
I've seen this posted a couple of times now and I also didn't catch it in the initial article. Read the comments section of the article. The steering numbers are from 2 different reference points and are not comparable.
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      11-13-2018, 08:10 AM   #49
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Found this little nugget in the new press release for M340i here:
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/a...-xdrive-sedans

"In order to optimize directional stability during heavy braking on surfaces with differing levels of grip for the right-hand and left-hand wheels, a steering impulse is applied to help the driver correct the car’s line".

No thanks!!
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      11-13-2018, 08:32 AM   #50
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This is the most interesting part for me:

"The K&C machine reported that aligning torque is 64 percent lower in the [F30] 328i than in the [E90] 335i."

"And in that measurement, he says, the new G20 3 Series is up to 10 percent better than its predecessor thanks in part to changes in suspension geometry."

Does this mean steering feedback is expected to be a lot worse compared to E90 once again?
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      11-13-2018, 09:14 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by TooFan328i View Post
Pretty interesting stuff (although I didn't follow every bit - I will need another read!).

https://jalopnik.com/the-engineering...ing-1830257906

Quote:
BMW says the new 2019 BMW 3 Series, which debuted last month in Paris, "moves the game on once again in terms of driving dynamics." So, to learn the tech behind what makes the new car handle better than its predecessor, I spoke with dynamics engineer Robert Rothmiller. Here's what he told me.

The head of functional design and integration for driving dynamics of the new G20 3 Series broke down the main changes to the car's handling into three categories: weight and track width, body and chassis stiffness, and technical systems. The first of those promises to give the car better grip in turns, the second could improve chassis response and comfort, and the last supposedly yields a better driving experience thanks to changes in the steering system and in damper technology.
Wow that link has a lot of technical explanations. I am just curious as to how it translates into the driving feel. Pretty cool stuff.
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      11-13-2018, 12:22 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Alex_bm View Post
This is the most interesting part for me:

"The K&C machine reported that aligning torque is 64 percent lower in the [F30] 328i than in the [E90] 335i."

"And in that measurement, he says, the new G20 3 Series is up to 10 percent better than its predecessor thanks in part to changes in suspension geometry."

Does this mean steering feedback is expected to be a lot worse compared to E90 once again?
Oh it won't be anywhere close to the E90's steering feedback much less the E46 or E36. It will be a subtle improvement to the F30, that's it. This would have still been good news if not for the fact that they dropped the manual.
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      11-13-2018, 01:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
So the 800 pound gorilla in the room says how does the g20 compare to the benchmark e90 with hydraulic power steering? Also, next years g30 will need to be updated with the same geometry as the new 3 series to benefit from it.
I wouldn't hold your breath for anything too drastic. From reviewers it sounds like a subtle improvement at best. The suspension and LSD sound promising. But without the manual, it might be time to look at the M3. With the simultaneous release of the Competition, the M3 is really just one step above the M340i.
I agree. Every new generation is praised by journalists. And I agree they are good cars model to model overall. Just wait for 7 years to hear how the next 3er is better than predecessor in every way.... because electric?

Point of my post is that journalists are always positive/political/etc and not fully truthful. You start hearing the truth in comparison videos and when the next gen of a car shows up.
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      11-13-2018, 02:16 PM   #54
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with "lift-related dampers" you can forget about installing lowering springs unless you want to ride like it's the stone age.
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      11-13-2018, 03:47 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thavash View Post
I remember being active on these forums when the E90 came out ( I bought a new 320 in 2005 and was on here almost every day ). At the time , the E90 steering was criticized for not having any feel off center ( when you start turning it ). I'm sure you'll find some posts about it.

Anyway the point is that even the E90 was criticized heavily compared to the E46 ( dont' even started about the run flats ), and it seems like any new model will get criticism. I've learnt not to get too stressed about it until I drive the car.

Some criticism is valid - the first E90s had a terrible ride with the run flats , and the early F30s had much worse steering than later ( and not as good as E90 ) , but overall the 3 Series remains the standard.
I agree with everything. There’s nothing new under the sun, unless it’s the first time you’ve seen the sun .

But... Amongst “enthusiasts”, you forgive the pinpoint, single-issue fundamentalism that infects the Internet. No MT, I’m never buying BMWs again. No hydraulic steering, I’m going to invade. No factory rolled fenders for those sweet dub-dubZ that surely every discerning cognoscenti installs, death to Germany etc. That single-minded, laser-focused concentration on intolerance of - in this case, the summation of customer requirements in the upper-mid-scale small family sedan premium lease sector.

Explains a lot about the world.
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      11-14-2018, 10:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgere View Post
I agree. Every new generation is praised by journalists. And I agree they are good cars model to model overall. Just wait for 7 years to hear how the next 3er is better than predecessor in every way.... because electric?

Point of my post is that journalists are always positive/political/etc and not fully truthful. You start hearing the truth in comparison videos and when the next gen of a car shows up.
I think the disdain for the F30 generation was pretty universal, at least in America. It wasn't a bad car by any means, but it didn't live up to the expectations that previous 3 series had set. Once we see the first official review of a production 3 series on C&D, MotorTrend, or R&T, we should have a good idea.
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      11-15-2018, 05:13 PM   #57
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must have great aeros and power, but with something that big, I can't see how it will be fun to drive, even in high 300 horses. I hope they keep the M235i/M240i the way it is now... things are getting out of control.
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      11-25-2018, 10:53 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpgray View Post
But the F30 was 64% less feel so a partial gain. Although I liked the E9x, I have grown accustomed to the F30 and the ease in grocery parking lots and gas stations.



The E9x was great at forward driving speeds but too stiff in parking lot. or turning into my driveway.



I think in simpler terms:
F30 has 64% less steering feel than E9x
G20 has 60% less steering feel than E9x
Hmmmm, I suppose it is tracking in the right direction...

I do wonder if they mean F30 LCI or F30 pre-LCI. LCI had revised front suspension, and I have had no complaints with mine (though admittedly I've never driven an e46 in anger to compare it to). So, if F30 was shit, F30 LCI was 'ok', 10% better than 'OK' is possibly better than you think. The 64% number was measured on pre-LCI F30. (and there's also the question of 328/330 vs 335/350, there could be other part differences that impact the steering feel between the entry-level 3 and the 'sporty' 3)
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      11-26-2018, 07:14 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I think the disdain for the F30 generation was pretty universal, at least in America. It wasn't a bad car by any means, but it didn't live up to the expectations that previous 3 series had set. Once we see the first official review of a production 3 series on C&D, MotorTrend, or R&T, we should have a good idea.
I think it was universal in America, if that isn’t a non sequitur. Elsewhere, it certainly wasn’t subject to the routine, repeated assassination it suffers on this forum. The Jag XE does the ride/handling thing better - as it often has - and the Giulia is a novel alternative, but neither offered a compelling alternative from one end to the other.

It’s a shame the 3 took such a beating in the US press, and appears to have presaged the permanent decline of the brand there.

Last edited by ScottAndrew; 11-26-2018 at 07:35 AM..
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      11-26-2018, 09:36 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Araemo View Post
I do wonder if they mean F30 LCI or F30 pre-LCI. LCI had revised front suspension, and I have had no complaints with mine (though admittedly I've never driven an e46 in anger to compare it to). So, if F30 was shit, F30 LCI was 'ok', 10% better than 'OK' is possibly better than you think. The 64% number was measured on pre-LCI F30. (and there's also the question of 328/330 vs 335/350, there could be other part differences that impact the steering feel between the entry-level 3 and the 'sporty' 3)
Good point. The LCI version added the 5 bolt front strut vs. the Pre-LCI 3 bolt strut I have in addition to the upgraded electronics. I found the early xDrive version very detached and changed back to a RWD with sport suspension which is much better. I know they are espousing the stiffer chasis,and if in fact the new G20 steering is much better than the LCI version, at least it is trending in the right direction. If it is closer to the E9x vs. the F3x and the 340i is 380 HP, LSD as standard, that would be quite the driver. Too bad the manual will not be an option.
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      11-27-2018, 06:12 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpgray View Post
Good point. The LCI version added the 5 bolt front strut vs. the Pre-LCI 3 bolt strut I have in addition to the upgraded electronics. I found the early xDrive version very detached and changed back to a RWD with sport suspension which is much better. I know they are espousing the stiffer chasis,and if in fact the new G20 steering is much better than the LCI version, at least it is trending in the right direction. If it is closer to the E9x vs. the F3x and the 340i is 380 HP, LSD as standard, that would be quite the driver. Too bad the manual will not be an option.
I know. A large part of why I ended up in the 340iX is that it was one of the few AWD sport sedans that still offered a manual. Despite all the upgrades, there's a part of me that wants to hang onto this manual one for a long time.
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      11-27-2018, 06:59 AM   #62
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When you refer to the E90 steering, recall that there are three versions of the steering rack (North American cars): 18:1 in all xdrive cars, 16:1 in RWD, and 12.5:1 ratio in the M3. While the ratio is a huge driver in the overall subjective impression, my experience with both RWD versions is they provide excellent communication approaching/at/over the limits of the front contact patches on track. That fine level of feel as you approach/exceed the limits up front is well-communicated and therefore manageable - intuitively. They also have a nice build up of steering wheel torque as lateral loads (contact patch cornering loads) build that gets light, just as it should, near the peak. It's really second nature driving one of these for all they're worth on the track like most prior BMWs were.

If the future EPS is anything like the M2 Competition's retuned EPS, it's all going to be fine. I spent 4 hours on the Michelin 1/2 mile skidpad shortly after buying the M2C with one specific purpose: evaluating its EPS. It is significantly improved from the prior M2 (and non ZCP F80) and greatly improved from the F30 disaster. The steering provides that nice build up of steering wheel torque with lateral load, and it gives very good feedback near/at/over the limits up front.

Although I spent a lot of time drifting, I did do many laps attempting to drive it as quickly as possible around the pad by holding it right on the limits front/rear, and the EPS is good enough that I could only focus on evaluating its behavior for so long before I would lose myself just driving this mini-beast for all it was worth. There is no significant numbness near/over the limit like on past EPS. It is so far removed from the F30s I've driven as to not even be called the same thing.

I did a write up in the M2 forum on the evaluation if anyone is interested. My wife and I bought the M2C with the plan of flipping it right away if the EPS was junk as neither of us have been interested in any BMW since the E9x generation. The car is staying for now.
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      11-27-2018, 09:53 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
It is so far removed from the F30s I've driven as to not even be called the same thing.
What F30s have you driven? Any LCI m-sport cars?
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      11-27-2018, 11:52 AM   #64
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Quote:
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What F30s have you driven? Any LCI m-sport cars?
In terms of "modern" BMWs, ages back F30 328i and 335i Msport, OG M2, F80, F80 ZCP.
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      02-23-2022, 09:45 PM   #65
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Just wanted to say, even after 2 years of ownership, this car's handling is blowing my mind after each drive session.

I used to have E92 Msport suspension, and now with G20 I only have normal suspension with adaptive damping, and the G20 feels much better. It's unclear to me what makes this g20 feel so good. My best guess is the chassis is much more stiffer and suspension geometry could have a big effect too.

The car just gives so much feedback when on traction limit. And I'm even able to do deliberate understeer braking like in karting. Body leaning / roll is a problem though. Also the low speed damping seems stiff compared to spring stiffness. No idea about rebound. I think all the non-M BMWs nowdays are like this.

I think steering feedback is good enough. IMHO people who say this car lacks steering feedback because of being electric are just numb handers. You can definately feel the traction limit when trail braking or feel the road uneveness when you load the front suspension properly.
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      02-24-2022, 11:51 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oniumsalt View Post
Just wanted to say, even after 2 years of ownership, this car's handling is blowing my mind after each drive session.

I used to have E92 Msport suspension, and now with G20 I only have normal suspension with adaptive damping, and the G20 feels much better. It's unclear to me what makes this g20 feel so good. My best guess is the chassis is much more stiffer and suspension geometry could have a big effect too.

The car just gives so much feedback when on traction limit. And I'm even able to do deliberate understeer braking like in karting. Body leaning / roll is a problem though. Also the low speed damping seems stiff compared to spring stiffness. No idea about rebound. I think all the non-M BMWs nowdays are like this.

I think steering feedback is good enough. IMHO people who say this car lacks steering feedback because of being electric are just numb handers. You can definately feel the traction limit when trail braking or feel the road uneveness when you load the front suspension properly.
hey when you talk about steering feedback, is sport mode better than comfort? i just can't decide if one mode is actually better than the other (other than the difference in effort required to turn the wheel)
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