[ted99]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I understand your approach, with one exception. What is the concern with a BMW plant in China?

Two concerns: 1) Political. Unless the Chinese stop ripping off our intellectual property and requiring technology transfer when "allowing" foreign investment, I don't see why I should support their products, when there is an alternative. BMW has an alternative--build in S. Carolina. 2) Tariffs. Will Chinese imports be subject to a punitive import duty? I have no philosophical objection to this as a trade lever but I also will absolutely respond to the price impact of this by selecting an equivalent product at a lower cost. Hopefully, there are enough alternatives that the US steel industries' response to higher Chinese tariffs of raising their prices will not happen in autos. But, I wouldn't bet on it.

I suspect that the "quality" of a Chinese-made auto will be as good as that of anywhere else since it's been German engineered and subject to German production processes. Both South Carolina and South Africa production is as good an example of this as is extant. I also suspect that Chinese production could be significantly less expensive than S. Carolina production, depending on how much is sourced in China compared to sent in from elsewhere. For instance, will BMW transfer it's electric motor technology to China and build there, rather than in Germany? I suspect not. BMW has just started a major battery fab plant in Europe, but China is also doing this. Will BMW buy Chinese batteries? Probably. Will BMW transfer it's solid state battery technology to China for local production? I suspect not. Will the China iX3 be an assembly plant, or will the metal stampings be produced there? The NA content of my S Carolina X5 40e is only 35% and the Germany content is only 35%--what are we making in the USA besides the seats? The engine and transmission are coming from Germany--is that 35%? Who is making the rest? Is S Carolina just an assembly facility and the body stampings come from somewhere else?

It's all just a big bean bag which pooches out somewhere else when you push in one place. I'll just have to make my own decisions about what I'm willing to buy in the Global scheme of things. My problem is that Corporations can move their production facilities to whatever low wage, low tax environment (S. Carolina I'm talking about you) they wish is search of lower labor costs (Mexico I'm talking about you), but are these lower costs showing up in the price of products? I remember Henry Ford's response when criticized for raising the wages of his production workers to the unheard of level of $5 a day: "If the person making my auto cannot afford to buy it, who will I sell to?"

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ted99

... but are these lower costs showing up in the price of products? ...

Thanks for taking the time to discuss further. I understand and respect your point of view. I just excerpted the above to further comment that cost and price are independent of each other. As a prior automotive product planner for a domestic manufacturer, I learned this early in my career, when, for example, I came to know that the variable piece cost of an automatic transmission was lower than for a manual. However, we, and everyone else, charged about a thousand dollars for the option of automatic. It was, for all in the industry who would do so, a cost reduction and a margin improvement. (I'm not sure if today's far more advanced automatics are similarly less costly). However, the lesson in my early days was that our job was to reduce cost and maximize revenue (price) to the point where the market demand was optimum to keep the plant full. A higher price was risking volume, and a lower price was wasting demand which could not be fulfilled. The actual cost (assumed to always be lower than WSD price of course!) was independent. To prove this to ourselves, we had different staffs in Finance who managed/tracked cost, and those who studied the competition and our capacity to find the optimal price points for vehicles and content.

[ted99]

Agreed. As long as cars are not a commodity, cost and price are independent (absent external factors like gov't action--tariffs, quotas)

[SteveinArizona]

I had a 330e and now have a 530e. I just wish that BMW would offer a more powerful option -- say the 250 HP 4 pot with the electric motor instead of the 180 HP 4 pot.

I don't want to buy a Porsche but why does Porsche offer the Panamera as a performance car and BMW only offers the phev as a basic 330/530 equivalent? I would gladly pay an extra $8K or so to get the bigger ICE.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I had a 330e and now have a 530e. I just wish that BMW would offer a more powerful option -- say the 250 HP 4 pot with the electric motor instead of the 180 HP 4 pot.

I don't want to buy a Porsche but why does Porsche offer the Panamera as a performance car and BMW only offers the phev as a basic 330/530 equivalent? I would gladly pay an extra $8K or so to get the bigger ICE.

My understanding is that 330e and 530e in the US are TZEV(transitional ZEV, which supersedes PZEV in Jan 1 2018).

In TZEV states like CA the 330e and 530e with B48 I4 carry 15 years and 150000 miles of emission warranty.

My thinking is that B58 I6 may not meet the TZEV emission parameters.

[sbt007]

For some weird reason, in California the 530e is on the official list of TZEV vehicles eligible for the carpool decal sticker. None of the other BMW plug in hybrid models are on the list including 330e because of "Not certified to the required tailpipe emission standard". Unclear if BMW themselves did not choose to get themselves certified. This is different from the federal rebate list - just talking about the CA list.

[ScottAndrew]

Why does anyone in the American continent care? If you want an EV, you buy a Tesla. If you want a family car, you buy a Honda Camry. Why is this 330e thing even being sold?

[sbt007]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Why does anyone in the American continent care? If you want an EV, you buy a Tesla. If you want a family car, you buy a Honda Camry. Why is this 330e thing even being sold?

Not everyone in the continent cares. But many people in California care because of the carpool sticker (i.e. selected TZEV vehicles can drive in the carpool/HOV lane with a single driver). So if you are planning to buy a 4-cyl 5-series anyway, it might make sense to buy a 530e which comes with significant rebates and the sticker that saves you a lot of time on the commute every day, and maybe even a prime spot at work - and you can still take in on the occasional longer drives where you don't really use the battery part or worry about recharging. People do buy a lot of Teslas too, assuming they have a second regular vehicle.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Why does anyone in the American continent care? If you want an EV, you buy a Tesla. If you want a family car, you buy a Honda Camry. Why is this 330e thing even being sold?

Au contraire! Wouldn’t buy a Tesla but looking for i4 or hybrid 4 GC (hatch, not trunk, please). Tesla has engineered a great BEV powertrain in a disappointing automobile. Fast doesn’t make up for mediocre design and assembly elsewhere.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Why does anyone in the American continent care? If you want an EV, you buy a Tesla. If you want a family car, you buy a Honda Camry. Why is this 330e thing even being sold?

G20 330e is quite important for BMW, as it is a great alternative to buy time for the next gen of lithium-less battery tech with much improved energy density, e.g. shrinking 1000lb to 500lb, that does not have dangerous thermal run-away that the EV industry has not yet acknowledged and/or resolved.

As of right now, 40 miles of electric range, plus 400-500 miles of ICE range, appear to be quite appealing. Maybe eventually a hybrid with 100 miles of electric range, and 500-600 miles of hydrogen range, can be possible.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by sbt007

Not everyone in the continent cares. But many people in California care because of the carpool sticker (i.e. selected TZEV vehicles can drive in the carpool/HOV lane with a single driver). So if you are planning to buy a 4-cyl 5-series anyway, it might make sense to buy a 530e which comes with significant rebates and the sticker that saves you a lot of time on the commute every day, and maybe even a prime spot at work - and you can still take in on the occasional longer drives where you don't really use the battery part or worry about recharging. People do buy a lot of Teslas too, assuming they have a second regular vehicle.

OK, that makes sense. I don't think any of those things (carpool stickers, ratings etc) are as advanced anywhere else, especially where commuting by car is basically not possible. Also I hope that, and would be impressed if, successive state governments maintained stable advanced planning to give people a degree of certainty.

Here in the UK, where we have a barely functioning democracy, governments, repeatedly stamp all over previous govervments' decisions which basically forces you to change cars every 4-5 years, even if that's the kind of behaviour that really rapes the environment. As a result, buying a BMW hybrid anything is totally pointless due to the expense and lack of reliable charge infrastructure because when the Communists gets in, they'll send out agents in the night to knife anyone owning a BMW

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

OK, that makes sense. I don't think any of those things (carpool stickers, ratings etc) are as advanced anywhere else, especially where commuting by car is basically not possible. Also I hope that, and would be impressed if, successive state governments maintained stable advanced planning to give people a degree of certainty.

Here in the UK, where we have a barely functioning democracy, governments, repeatedly stamp all over previous govervments' decisions which basically forces you to change cars every 4-5 years, even if that's the kind of behaviour that really rapes the environment. As a result, buying a BMW hybrid anything is totally pointless due to the expense and lack of reliable charge infrastructure because when the Communists gets in, they'll send out agents in the night to knife anyone owning a BMW

You don't have to charge a 330e like a EV. It's very small and can plug into where you plug your microwave in. Its even faster if you plug it into your dryer plug. As battery capacities get higher and higher, the need for public infrastructure becomes less of a burden because people will have more than enough range for a day's worth or driving and only have to charge at home.

[hans007]

the 330e with a 12kwh battery btw to anyone concerned will get a $5400 federal tax credit.

$2500 for first 5kwh, and $417 per additional kwh. Not bad. Part of me wants one just to get a nice parking spot at work given we have a ton of charge only spaces and no one uses them (and I live in LA where I would use virtually no gas each day on my 8 mile each way commute)

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by hans007

the 330e with a 12kwh battery btw to anyone concerned will get a $5400 federal tax credit.

$2500 for first 5kwh, and $417 per additional kwh. Not bad. Part of me wants one just to get a nice parking spot at work given we have a ton of charge only spaces and no one uses them (and I live in LA where I would use virtually no gas each day on my 8 mile each way commute)

The outgoing F30 330e 7.6kW now has $3500 finance incentive, plus $2500 dealer cash, if stackable that is $6000 off, probably on top of invoice pricing too. Plus extra $3167 credit on the 7.6kW. Does CA also have extra incentives? $6k + $3.2k off invoice is quite tempting, except it has only 17 miles of electric range.

It will be very sweet when G20 330e gets to $6k off invoice, plus $5400 fed credit for 12kWh.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by jmg

You don't have to charge a 330e like a EV. It's very small and can plug into where you plug your microwave in. Its even faster if you plug it into your dryer plug. As battery capacities get higher and higher, the need for public infrastructure becomes less of a burden because people will have more than enough range for a day's worth or driving and only have to charge at home.

Yes hybrid with 12kWh and 40 miles of electric range can be quite usable for many.

If tech improves(e.g. better energy density and efficiency) to allow 20kWh to go 100 miles(plus ICE/hydrogen 400-600 miles of range), that will really disrupt how people think of pure battery BEVs.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The outgoing F30 330e 7.6kW now has $3500 finance incentive, plus $2500 dealer cash, if stackable that is $6000 off, probably on top of invoice pricing too. Plus extra $3167 credit on the 7.6kW. Does CA also have extra incentives? $6k + $3.2k off invoice is quite tempting, except it has only 17 miles of electric range.

It will be very sweet when G20 330e gets to $6k off invoice, plus $5400 fed credit for 12kWh.

In comparison, my i3 had a $2500 state, $7500 federal credit, $2000 loyalty, plus 12% off MSRP. I stacked it with a BMWCCA $1000 credit, $450 SCE credit, and $1000 UDE credit. That's for a REx with 120mi electric only and a 80mile Range Extender. If you don't mind driving an ugly ass car, the i3 is the better deal. Ideally, BMW should just redesign the i3 to be more sedan-like but still accommodate a big battery. I think it's much more appealing than a 330e. Then it would qualify for the full rebates and carpool sticker.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by jmg

In comparison, my i3 had a $2500 state, $7500 federal credit, $2000 loyalty, plus 12% off MSRP. I stacked it with a BMWCCA $1000 credit, $450 SCE credit, and $1000 UDE credit. That's for a REx with 120mi electric only and a 80mile Range Extender. If you don't mind driving an ugly ass car, the i3 is the better deal. Ideally, BMW should just redesign the i3 to be more sedan-like but still accommodate a big battery. I think it's much more appealing than a 330e. Then it would qualify for the full rebates and carpool sticker.

Thanks for the data point, that's an awesome deal.

What is SCE credit? Edison?

There were several i3's at last year's local UDE road drive, honestly those i3's were just as much fun as Model 3's(although Tesla die-hards will villify anyone who dares to say that).

[jmg]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Thanks for the data point, that's an awesome deal.

What is SCE credit?

There were several i3's at last year's local UDE road drive, honestly those i3's were just as much fun as Model 3's(although Tesla die-hards will villify anyone who dares to say that).

Southern California Edison. It's since been upped to a $1000 credit as of 2019.

The i3 is quick to 30 but quickly tapers off. The Model 3 is in another class! The Performance model is a beast.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The outgoing F30 330e 7.6kW now has $3500 finance incentive, plus $2500 dealer cash, if stackable that is $6000 off, probably on top of invoice pricing too. Plus extra $3167 credit on the 7.6kW. Does CA also have extra incentives? $6k + $3.2k off invoice is quite tempting, except it has only 17 miles of electric range.

It will be very sweet when G20 330e gets to $6k off invoice, plus $5400 fed credit for 12kWh.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

The outgoing F30 330e 7.6kW now has $35b00 finance incentive, plus $2500 dealer cash, if stackable that is $6000 off, probably on top of invoice pricing too. Plus extra $3167 credit on the 7.6kW. Does CA also have extra incentives? $6k + $3.2k off invoice is quite tempting, except it has only 17 miles of electric range.

It will be very sweet when G20 330e gets to $6k off invoice, plus $5400 fed credit for 12kWh.

$2500 state but there is the income cap now....150k single / 300k married. which kind of sucks a lot of people in the can comfortably afford $50k BMW crowd probably exceed that. sometimes I hate this state. pay the highest marginal rate... so we can pay for someone Fiat 500e that doesn't pay much income tax

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by hans007

$2500 state but there is the income cap now....150k single / 300k married. which kind of sucks a lot of people in the can comfortably afford $50k BMW crowd probably exceed that. sometimes I hate this state. pay the highest marginal rate... so we can pay for someone Fiat 500e that doesn't pay much income tax

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/lct/cvrp.htm

This page says plug-in hybrid is $1500 for standard rebate with income limit $150k/$300k, or $3500 if income less than 3x of fed poverty level("lower income").

BTW fuel cell cars do not have income limit, standard rebate is $5000, while "lower income" is $7000.

It may be a good idea to slack off for a year or two to qualify as "lower income", and just load up on all the CA tax credits. Just make sure the income tax is high enough to utilize $5400 fed credit.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/lct/cvrp.htm

This page says plug-in hybrid is $1500 for standard rebate with income limit $150k/$300k, or $3500 if income less than 3x of fed poverty level("lower income").

BTW fuel cell cars do not have income limit, standard rebate is $5000, while "lower income" is $7000.

It may be a good idea to slack off for a year or two to qualify as "lower income", and just load up on all the CA tax credits. Just make sure the income tax is high enough to utilize $5400 fed credit.

ah my mistake, apparently it was $2500 for a pure EV like an i3.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/lct/cvrp.htm

This page says plug-in hybrid is $1500 for standard rebate with income limit $150k/$300k, or $3500 if income less than 3x of fed poverty level("lower income").

BTW fuel cell cars do not have income limit, standard rebate is $5000, while "lower income" is $7000.

It may be a good idea to slack off for a year or two to qualify as "lower income", and just load up on all the CA tax credits. Just make sure the income tax is high enough to utilize $5400 fed credit.

Another argument for income splitting.