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      01-14-2020, 11:15 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Overpriced would indicate that it's above and beyond the pricing of its direct competitor, which it is not. The C43 is actually slightly more expensive despite only being a refreshed last generation model.

Also, discounting a car by 10% has nothing to do with BMW and their "desperation"; it's coming out of the dealer's pocket. If you simply go into a dealership and ask for 10% off, chances are they wouldn't agree. It takes some effort to get there.

Manufacturer incentives are what come from BMW, and again they are in line with what Mercedes is offering on the C43.

Sedan sales in general are on the decline which makes them ripe for great deals. That has nothing to do with whether or not BMW believes in the G20 specifically.

$69k (for a fully loaded M340i) was the MSRP, not what I paid. What I paid was that less 10% and $3k in incentives ($2k loyalty, $1k lease cash). This manifests itself into the $658 monthly payment, which by your logic means I should be in the "banking business", whatever that means.
1) The dealer will not sell the new car 3% under the invoice (more than 7% discount) "quite often". That comes directly from their bottom line. Unless the manufacturer compensates them for that and I am quite sure BMW is not doing that at this point. You, or the other poster, mentioned "quite a few" people getting similar deals. I do not believe that.

2) now to your payment. Unless, you are not telling something, like down payment or multiple MSDs or whatever, the monthly payment of $658 is not possible, therefore, I suggested you to go to banking industry and pull that magic over there and make tons of cash!!!

MSRP: $69,000
Sales Price: $62,000 (10% discount)
Rebates: $3000
Residual: 60% ($41,400) over 36 months
Interest Rate/MF: 0.00177 (doubt you can get less than this, but you are a magician...)
Destination fee and Dealer Fees: $1,100
Illinois Sales Tax: 6.25%

Calculation:
Selling Price: $62,000
Capped Fees: 1100
Rebates: 3000
Net Cap Cost: $60,125

60,125 - 41,400 = 28,700. $18.7k/36 months = $520/month
Monthly Interest: $180
Monthly Tax: 56

Payment: $755/month

I wonder how you got to $658?
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      01-14-2020, 11:22 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Pauleebe View Post
I never claimed to be an "enthusiast". I love the brand and my car, but day-to-day I'm just a regular owner.

My claim regarding times was aimed at the user who was trying to make the M340 seem like a slouch compared to the F80, which it's not. I agree 0-60 or 1/4 mile times aren't everything, but there is a reason journalists test and report on them. Likewise, most owners aren't tracking their car weekly (if ever), and the value proposition is that if they can get virtually F80 performance in a daily driver package for the same price or less than the F80, then that's a great buy. An M340 owner knows they aren't buying a true track car, but that doesn't mean it can't run with the F80 M3 too.

Not arguing with you on lease pricing. As others have said, many are getting $600/mo leases for an MSRP of ~62-64K or $650/mo leases for ~64-68K. My lease is 62.5K for just under $600/mo. Folks aren't lying about lease figures, and if you use a lease calculator and the published rates, you can back into the payment they're claiming.



Folks were getting 10%+ the G20 since it started production. Just browse the forums. 10% off is the golden standard where repeat BMW customers with relationships (not even always a requirement) with dealers can start negotiating. It's been this way for my past 3 leases since I started in 2013.

You're naive for thinking BMW is making no profit if they go below MSRP or invoice, but that's what they want you to believe so you stop negotiating downwards.
See my calculation on the different lease
Similarly, on the $62,500 with assumed 10% off ($56,250 sales price) and additional 3k rebates -- your payment with taxes in MA is $680/month, not below $600.

The residual and minimum MF is published.

Again, I doubt MANY people are getting 10% off from the get go in this economy and while BMW sales are doing quite OK lately.
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      01-14-2020, 11:31 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
1) The dealer will not sell the new car 3% under the invoice (more than 7% discount) "quite often". That comes directly from their bottom line. Unless the manufacturer compensates them for that and I am quite sure BMW is not doing that at this point. You, or the other poster, mentioned "quite a few" people getting similar deals. I do not believe that.

2) now to your payment. Unless, you are not telling something, like down payment or multiple MSDs or whatever, the monthly payment of $658 is not possible, therefore, I suggested you to go to banking industry and pull that magic over there and make tons of cash!!!

MSRP: $69,000
Sales Price: $62,000 (10% discount)
Rebates: $3000
Residual: 60% ($41,400) over 36 months
Interest Rate/MF: 0.00177 (doubt you can get less than this, but you are a magician...)
Destination fee and Dealer Fees: $1,100
Illinois Sales Tax: 6.25%

Calculation:
Selling Price: $62,000
Capped Fees: 1100
Rebates: 3000
Net Cap Cost: $60,125

60,125 - 41,400 = 28,700. $18.7k/36 months = $520/month
Monthly Interest: $180
Monthly Tax: 56

Payment: $755/month

I wonder how you got to $658?
Here, let me help you:

MSRP: $68,970
Sale Price: $62,100 (10% discount)
Incentives: $2k loyalty; $1k lease cash
Adjusted Cap Cost: $59,100

Monthly Payment: $658 (including tax)
Drive-Off Amount: $ 6,013 (7 MSD-$4,900 + 1st month payment-$658 + Fees-$455)
Months: 36
Annual Mileage: 12,000
MF (before MSD's): 0.00128
Residual:60%

I think you're confusing "quite often" to mean "most". I'm by no means saying most. For every 1 person that gets 10% off, there are likely 10 that pay close to MSRP. But to suggest that it's not really possible and that BMW (Again, the dealers do the discount, BMW only offers incentives) is not doing that at this point simply means you haven't done any research.

Further, dealers have what's called a "hold back" amount, below invoice, which is a cash amount awarded to the dealer for each sale of a new car by BMW. This hold back amount represents 2-3% below invoice. So even at 10%, the dealer isn't really "losing money".

Beyond that, volume dealers are in it for the cash bonus provided by BMW as incentive for meeting a sales quota, so if that means they take a few low to 0 margin sales here and there to hit that quota, they are more than willing to do so.

Doesn't take a magician to get 10% off pre-incentive with buy-rate money factor. Just takes a bit of effort and excellent credit. I emailed 21 dealerships across the midwest, majority of which thought I was crazy for asking that much off. However the 2-3 high volumes dealers that were willing to play ball.... I had them bid against each other for my business, and I went with the best offer.

You should check out Leasehackr.

Here's the calculation to my payment:
leasehackr.com/calculator?make=BMW&miles=12000&msd=7&msrp=68970&s ales_price=62073&months=36&mf=.00128&dp=0&dealer_f ee=85&acq_fee=925&taxed_inc=3000&untaxed_inc=0&reb ate=0&resP=60&reg_fee=400&sales_tax=7.25&demo_mile age=0&memo=&monthlyTax_radio=true
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      01-14-2020, 04:52 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Here, let me help you:

MSRP: $68,970
Sale Price: $62,100 (10% discount)
Incentives: $2k loyalty; $1k lease cash
Adjusted Cap Cost: $59,100

Monthly Payment: $658 (including tax)
Drive-Off Amount: $ 6,013 (7 MSD-$4,900 + 1st month payment-$658 + Fees-$455)
Months: 36
Annual Mileage: 12,000
MF (before MSD's): 0.00128
Residual:60%

I think you're confusing "quite often" to mean "most". I'm by no means saying most. For every 1 person that gets 10% off, there are likely 10 that pay close to MSRP. But to suggest that it's not really possible and that BMW (Again, the dealers do the discount, BMW only offers incentives) is not doing that at this point simply means you haven't done any research.

Further, dealers have what's called a "hold back" amount, below invoice, which is a cash amount awarded to the dealer for each sale of a new car by BMW. This hold back amount represents 2-3% below invoice. So even at 10%, the dealer isn't really "losing money".

Beyond that, volume dealers are in it for the cash bonus provided by BMW as incentive for meeting a sales quota, so if that means they take a few low to 0 margin sales here and there to hit that quota, they are more than willing to do so.

Doesn't take a magician to get 10% off pre-incentive with buy-rate money factor. Just takes a bit of effort and excellent credit. I emailed 21 dealerships across the midwest, majority of which thought I was crazy for asking that much off. However the 2-3 high volumes dealers that were willing to play ball.... I had them bid against each other for my business, and I went with the best offer.

You should check out Leasehackr.

Here's the calculation to my payment:
leasehackr.com/calculator?make=BMW&miles=12000&msd=7&msrp=68970&s ales_price=62073&months=36&mf=.00128&dp=0&dealer_f ee=85&acq_fee=925&taxed_inc=3000&untaxed_inc=0&reb ate=0&resP=60&reg_fee=400&sales_tax=7.25&demo_mile age=0&memo=&monthlyTax_radio=true
M
S
D
!!!!
Missed to mention that little detail....

As I mentioned, impossible to get to that number without that....

I am done with that one
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      01-14-2020, 07:13 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
M
S
D
!!!!
Missed to mention that little detail....

As I mentioned, impossible to get to that number without that....

I am done with that one
Are you perhaps confusing MSD's with downpayment? You're reacting as if they're the same thing. They are fundamentally very different, and typically speaking, one is considered a good idea for a lease while one is considered not very beneficial.

If I had put that amount down as a downpayment, my monthly payment would have been ~$541, however my effective cost of leasing would have been $24,376 (($541*36)+$4,900).

With MSD's, my effective cost of leasing is $23,688 ($658*36).

Think of MSD's as a guaranteed ~8.5% annual rate of return on investment.

Even without them my payment would be ~$695/month. Just remove the MSD's on the calculator. Remember, the 0.00128 MF I received is pre-MSD, meaning my MF after MSD's was 0.00093.
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      01-14-2020, 07:58 PM   #116
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Lol, don't waste your breath. I got 13% off, well a fellow member got that deal for me back in August on my M340i. If I was getting my car now, I would have saved even more because MF is much lower than they were back in August. Of course there are still dealers who will not entertain 10%. I couldn't find a decent discount in South Florida so I started dealing with a PA dealer who offered 11% off at the time. In the end, I got 13% off before incentives from a dealer in TX and I had about 3k in incentives that was also applied to my deal. My deal also includes max MSD.
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      01-14-2020, 09:48 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Are you perhaps confusing MSD's with downpayment? You're reacting as if they're the same thing. They are fundamentally very different, and typically speaking, one is considered a good idea for a lease while one is considered not very beneficial.

If I had put that amount down as a downpayment, my monthly payment would have been ~$541, however my effective cost of leasing would have been $24,376 (($541*36)+$4,900).

With MSD's, my effective cost of leasing is $23,688 ($658*36).

Think of MSD's as a guaranteed ~8.5% annual rate of return on investment.

Even without them my payment would be ~$695/month. Just remove the MSD's on the calculator. Remember, the 0.00128 MF I received is pre-MSD, meaning my MF after MSD's was 0.00093.
No, I am not confused about MSDs and the initial discussion about apples to apples payment was exactly that - I would not pay almost the same amount for G20 as for an F80.
My payment of $850 on F80 (almost fully loaded) with ZERO down and ZERO MSDs is not much higher from the equivalently equipped G20 with nothing up front.
I understand how the MSD stuff works and it is beneficial but with risks ó if you ever want to transfer your lease, you most likely lose it. If you total your car, you will lose it...

The bottom line is, your payment is lower because you used MSDs. You also could have done it with the down payment and then sell the car at the end of the lease and get some or all of it back...
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      01-14-2020, 09:52 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXE46 View Post
Lol, don't waste your breath. I got 13% off, well a fellow member got that deal for me back in August on my M340i. If I was getting my car now, I would have saved even more because MF is much lower than they were back in August. Of course there are still dealers who will not entertain 10%. I couldn't find a decent discount in South Florida so I started dealing with a PA dealer who offered 11% off at the time. In the end, I got 13% off before incentives from a dealer in TX and I had about 3k in incentives that was also applied to my deal. My deal also includes max MSD.
You do realize that parading around that BMW is giving 13% off MSRP on the brand new generation vehicle easily to everyone that tries is actually not a good thing.
They overpriced the 3-series realizing that they cannot sell the vehicle at that price - it is not worth that and competition is not far behind or even ahead to claim that price. So, let us sell it way below invoice price. Not even Honda is doing anything close to that...
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      01-14-2020, 11:25 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
No, I am not confused about MSDs and the initial discussion about apples to apples payment was exactly that - I would not pay almost the same amount for G20 as for an F80.
My payment of $850 on F80 (almost fully loaded) with ZERO down and ZERO MSDs is not much higher from the equivalently equipped G20 with nothing up front.
I understand how the MSD stuff works and it is beneficial but with risks ó if you ever want to transfer your lease, you most likely lose it. If you total your car, you will lose it...

The bottom line is, your payment is lower because you used MSDs. You also could have done it with the down payment and then sell the car at the end of the lease and get some or all of it back...
If you total your car, you do not lose your MSD's. Once your insurance company pays off the remaining balance of the lease, BMWFS will refund the MSD amount, or you can just apply it to another lease.

Buying out and then selling the car at the end of the lease is typically not a good idea when it comes to BMW, with their inflated residual values.

There's an $11k difference in MSRP between your "almost fully loaded" F80 and my fully loaded G20, so I wouldn't exactly call that "almost the same amount". In regards to MSD's, as I mentioned before, even without MSD's my payment comes to ~$695/month which is a significant $155/month lower than yours.
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      01-15-2020, 06:41 AM   #120
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It's a hopeless argument and this happens every new 3 series generation.

Generally, the second-tier engined 3 series comes very close to the prior generation M3, and the prior generation M3 owners parade around the forum claiming that there is no way the new 3 series can hold a candle to their M3 in terms of performance or payment. It's happened with the E46 M3 vs. E92 335, E92 M3 and F30 340 (less close with this comparison, but probably one of many reasons that the F30 was a not-so-great 3 series), and now the F80 M3 and G20 M340.

It's called progress and it's nothing new to BMW or the automative industry.
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      01-15-2020, 07:47 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
If you total your car, you do not lose your MSD's. Once your insurance company pays off the remaining balance of the lease, BMWFS will refund the MSD amount, or you can just apply it to another lease.

Buying out and then selling the car at the end of the lease is typically not a good idea when it comes to BMW, with their inflated residual values.

There's an $11k difference in MSRP between your "almost fully loaded" F80 and my fully loaded G20, so I wouldn't exactly call that "almost the same amount". In regards to MSD's, as I mentioned before, even without MSD's my payment comes to ~$695/month which is a significant $155/month lower than yours.
Yes, there is about $10k MSRP difference between the vehicle I am talking about and your fully loaded M340. The features difference is minimal, however, as pointed out above, the difference comes in transmission, brakes, drivetrain, platform, weight...
Everything is different from M to a non-M vehicle. I thought it was not as significant until I owned one after multiple non-M cars.
Also, the residual on my car was 64% (as I recall) which made the monthly payment even closer without all amazing discounts that you received.
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      01-15-2020, 07:55 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Pauleebe View Post
It's a hopeless argument and this happens every new 3 series generation.

Generally, the second-tier engined 3 series comes very close to the prior generation M3, and the prior generation M3 owners parade around the forum claiming that there is no way the new 3 series can hold a candle to their M3 in terms of performance or payment. It's happened with the E46 M3 vs. E92 335, E92 M3 and F30 340 (less close with this comparison, but probably one of many reasons that the F30 was a not-so-great 3 series), and now the F80 M3 and G20 M340.

It's called progress and it's nothing new to BMW or the automative industry.
I believe it is the other way around. When N54 engine came out in 2006 or so, and BMW pumped out 300HP (vs. 333 in e46 M3) and 0-60 times came within a few 10s of a second, the argument was again around 335i being "progress". and we are seeing it again with the latest B58 in G20.
I would not say "it cannot hold the candle" but, I would say it is still a significantly different vehicle

But, my point was that with the progress, they made a significant "progress" on price too, and according to the posters above, they are all getting 10%+ off MSRP from multiple dealers. Something is not right there, no way that in 2006/07 you could get that discount on the e90 335i, or 7 years later on the F30.
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      01-15-2020, 08:03 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Not arguing about the differences in the F80 vs. the M340, because frankly, I agree with you they're different beasts.

My comment has to do with your lease numbers that you're quoting. Quite a few people (myself included) are getting or have gotten 10%+ off in addition to incentives. My payment on my $69k M340i (which I leased last October) with 12k miles/yr is $658.
"Quite a few people" got 10% off + incentives on the brand new, just released G20, which is >3% under the invoice pricing. That tells me two things: BMW is desperate for sales and that they do not believe in G20. Ah, and the third -- it is overpriced.

I don't think "quite a few" people are getting those deals...yet.

Also, $69k for a 340 is a way overpriced...
It should be common knowledge that the msrp for most makes and models is generally "overpriced".
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      01-15-2020, 08:13 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drF80 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauleebe View Post
It's a hopeless argument and this happens every new 3 series generation.

Generally, the second-tier engined 3 series comes very close to the prior generation M3, and the prior generation M3 owners parade around the forum claiming that there is no way the new 3 series can hold a candle to their M3 in terms of performance or payment. It's happened with the E46 M3 vs. E92 335, E92 M3 and F30 340 (less close with this comparison, but probably one of many reasons that the F30 was a not-so-great 3 series), and now the F80 M3 and G20 M340.

It's called progress and it's nothing new to BMW or the automative industry.
I believe it is the other way around. When N54 engine came out in 2006 or so, and BMW pumped out 300HP (vs. 333 in e46 M3) and 0-60 times came within a few 10s of a second, the argument was again around 335i being "progress". and we are seeing it again with the latest B58 in G20.
I would not say "it cannot hold the candle" but, I would say it is still a significantly different vehicle

But, my point was that with the progress, they made a significant "progress" on price too, and according to the posters above, they are all getting 10%+ off MSRP from multiple dealers. Something is not right there, no way that in 2006/07 you could get that discount on the e90 335i, or 7 years later on the F30.
Assuming that incentives of this magnitude are unique to the pre-lci g20 generation (I'm not sure that they are), you have to consider that these are different times and different markets. People today want suvs. Sedans are less popular than they were even several years ago. This is not unique among bmw models.
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      01-16-2020, 05:51 AM   #125
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Out of the blue, after loosing every comparison, C&D has the 330 as a winner in their February 2020 issue comparison! Didn’t see this one coming from them.
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      01-16-2020, 02:35 PM   #126
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Out of the blue, after loosing ever comparison, C&D has the 330 as a winner in their February 2020 issue comparison! Didnít see this one coming from them.
Have to remember-at the end of the day, they can complain all they want but can't compare G20 to E90 etc. Have to compare it with what is available for sale today and it is now best in class IMHO.
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      01-19-2020, 01:19 AM   #127
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Well I finally got around to driving the Giulia today. Overall very unimpressed.

Positives: styling, chassis/fast steering rack. No modern EPS steering will match the weight/tightness/feedback of our beloved E90s and E46s, but this car's steering was extremely quick.

Negatives: everything else. Even with extended leather pkg the interior is lackluster. Once you start touching and pushing on things the true lack of quality shows. Stuff shakes, wobbles, and makes cheap noises. Even a 2006 BMW 325i has a nicer cabin. The infotainment system is as sad as it gets. Then you have the dealership experience...every Alfa/Maserati dealer feels like an old Chrylser showroom that's been dressed up.

Overall this car is a very difficult purchase to justify and sales reflect that. Once you are used to the quality and attention to detail of a German automobile it's hard to settle for this level of mediocrity. It's sad because BMW used to straddle that sport-luxury line so well but has drifted so far off to the latter.

If the G20 had steering closer to that of the Giulia I'd be sold. Instead, I'm thinking of just holding onto my current DD for an extra year and saving up to get directly into an M2 or Boxster. None of these modern luxury sport sedans really cut it!
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