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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions M340i steering feels overly heavy

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      01-16-2020, 04:58 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ls3c6 View Post
That feeling isn't all bad, I find the EPS to further aid the isolation of comfort/smoothness in a car and its tolerably agitating when driving spirited as your brain knows hydraulic and what the wheel should feel like in resistance and in response to the road surface... for a daily driver I think I prefer the EPS overall.
And this is the issue for the chassis engineers. Not all steering 'feel' and feedback is good. Some is viewed as negative interference. Not all drivers want it.
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      01-16-2020, 05:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
Same update from me too! Just took a two hour trip (mostly empty Highway) while I love the comfort setting for day to day driving -at speeds above 80mph, it starts getting weird and twitchy. Car feels wobbly/darty and I have to constantly make micro corrections. It’s more pronounced the faster you go.
A few drivers would welcome 'some' of what you are sensing as giving more feedback, rather than a more damped 'planted' steering heft.
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      01-16-2020, 10:11 AM   #47
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The marketing folks understood from surveys that the reason why customers buy a "40" over a "30", is to have a heavier steering.

80% of Consumers (of course not you expert bimmer people) just assume the heavier the steering, engine is bigger, and makes it stand out from the Toyotas and Hondas.

BMW can do an update to tweak the fake heavy steering in sport mode.
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      01-16-2020, 02:03 PM   #48
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The steering doesn't bother me and besides I don't drive in Sport Plus all the time like some of you guys.
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      01-16-2020, 06:38 PM   #49
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My previous vehicle was 2011 mazda 3 with Power Assisted Hydraulic Steering. linearly heavy in all rotations.

Test Drove the F30, 330 Base, M Sport II package. Lighter and more numb feeling in comfort mode. In sport mode, there was a increase in heaviness, however still felt a little numbness.

With the G20 330, M-sport package in sport mode, the steering felt closer to hydraulic, but less effort to turn the wheel on wide rotations, heaviness is still there. More heavier overall than F30, and different rotation will have varied levels of heaviness. Not bad at all, not overly artificially numb.
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      01-17-2020, 03:50 PM   #50
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Any "power assisted steering" is technically artificial, and yes that includes hydraulic assist as well.

So really there is nothing "natural" about how much effort is needed to turn the steering wheel in a vehicle with "power" steering.

There is a distinction and difference between power steering assistance level vs what is commonly known as "steering feel".

Just like other vehicle manufacturers, BMW decides how they want their steering assistance levels to feel. If BMW "fakes" the assist level, then so does Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, Ferrari, Mclaren, Hyundai, and any vehicle manufacturer who employs a power assisted steering system.
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      01-19-2020, 01:13 AM   #51
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OP you hit the nail on the head when you said the steering just becomes artificially heavy for the sake of being heavy. In no way does it tighten or add any road feel. Pretty bad tuning if you ask me and is a deal killer for me on an otherwise perfect car.

I maintain that the only BMW which bears any resemblance to the E-chassis models is the M2. It's steering still leaves you a bit cold but it's not that bad and has a hint of the magic of the old cars.

On a side note, I was a bit saddened today after driving my mother's new G05 X5 M sport then getting into my brother's E70 M sport. The old model felt so damn good. The steering was hefty and you knew exactly where the wheels were. The F15/G05 have absolutely ZERO road feel even in their sportiest settings. Don't even get me started on how the chassis wallows in corners. I have no confidence driving these post-E chassis Bimmers. Very sad.
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      01-19-2020, 01:40 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
And this is the issue for the chassis engineers. Not all steering 'feel' and feedback is good. Some is viewed as negative interference. Not all drivers want it.
BMW has the bean counters running the show. Poor engineers.
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      01-19-2020, 01:54 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
OP you hit the nail on the head when you said the steering just becomes artificially heavy for the sake of being heavy. In no way does it tighten or add any road feel. Pretty bad tuning if you ask me and is a deal killer for me on an otherwise perfect car.

I maintain that the only BMW which bears any resemblance to the E-chassis models is the M2. It's steering still leaves you a bit cold but it's not that bad and has a hint of the magic of the old cars.

On a side note, I was a bit saddened today after driving my mother's new G05 X5 M sport then getting into my brother's E70 M sport. The old model felt so damn good. The steering was hefty and you knew exactly where the wheels were. The F15/G05 have absolutely ZERO road feel even in their sportiest settings. Don't even get me started on how the chassis wallows in corners. I have no confidence driving these post-E chassis Bimmers. Very sad.
Maybe their saving that true steering feeling for the newer M models given that most buyers of the brand now want it more for its luxury features rather than its sportiness ones.
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      01-19-2020, 07:07 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
Maybe their saving that true steering feeling for the newer M models given that most buyers of the brand now want it more for its luxury features rather than its sportiness ones.
Reading the motor industry press, does give a different perspective than the enthusiast's motoring press.

What I glean, many folks buying into the premium brands in Europe, expect refinement at all levels, driver assistance aids and the advanced tech'.

There is a direct conflict between the raw driving experience of yesteryear, and where we are today. BMW are providing what most of their users demand. The SUV/SAV market share in BMW's fleet, give us a massive clue. Steering feel (if anyone can really define what that ought to be in 2020) is not a priority to most buyers.
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      01-19-2020, 07:24 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
BMW has the bean counters running the show. Poor engineers.
From personal experience of a career in product R&D and design...

Since when did sales and marketing not have the lead in a successful company? Engineers are there to produce the product they need, at costs which the bean counters are happy with.

Oh for the simplicity of vehicles past, light weight, and very basic systems.

Think of the simplest of rack and pinion systems, no assistance required at all. Takes me back to the days of my Triumph Dolomite Sprint, could simply adjust the steering 'damping' with a spring and a couple of shims. Did I want to feel every variation in road surface, or not? Took about 10 minutes to tweak the feel and feedback.
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      01-20-2020, 09:52 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
Maybe their saving that true steering feeling for the newer M models given that most buyers of the brand now want it more for its luxury features rather than its sportiness ones.
Reading the motor industry press, does give a different perspective than the enthusiast's motoring press.

What I glean, many folks buying into the premium brands in Europe, expect refinement at all levels, driver assistance aids and the advanced tech'.

There is a direct conflict between the raw driving experience of yesteryear, and where we are today. BMW are providing what most of their users demand. The SUV/SAV market share in BMW's fleet, give us a massive clue. Steering feel (if anyone can really define what that ought to be in 2020) is not a priority to most buyers.
80% of BMW buyers have no clue of cars, just want the badge and yesteryear reputation.

And these 80% makes more money.
BMW is doing the right thing targeting these folks. So they compete in that sweet spot between Toyotas and Porsches. Not too hot and not too cold.
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      01-20-2020, 10:15 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranto300 View Post
80% of BMW buyers have no clue of cars, just want the badge and yesteryear reputation.

And these 80% makes more money.
BMW is doing the right thing targeting these folks. So they compete in that sweet spot between Toyotas and Porsches. Not too hot and not too cold.
Remember seeing the change back in the 1980's, when the Yuppies had to be seen in one of the E30 variants. Became the aspirational brand to have, has continued to be so.

I believe part of the success was the versatility of the models, came in all levels of build, not all focused on 'sportiness'. Something for everyone. Entry level models with few options were 'chalk and cheese' to well optioned models, further up the range.

Not much has really changed. There is the trend for more user comfort, luxuries and loads of tech.
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      02-19-2020, 08:42 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BMW11 View Post
I wish BMW offered an option for the old Hydraulic Steering like an individual option. If it was a reasonable price I would buy it. BMW should link it with the Cooling and High Performance Package option for enthusiasts make enthusiast's happy BMW come on.
There are still some "modern" cars with HPS, e.g. the Nissan 370Z, Infiniti Q50 2.0T, and various Dodges.
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      02-19-2020, 09:07 PM   #59
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Reminds me of the F8x in sport mode. It was just overly heavy for no reason.
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      02-19-2020, 11:43 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Any "power assisted steering" is technically artificial, and yes that includes hydraulic assist as well.

So really there is nothing "natural" about how much effort is needed to turn the steering wheel in a vehicle with "power" steering.

There is a distinction and difference between power steering assistance level vs what is commonly known as "steering feel".

Just like other vehicle manufacturers, BMW decides how they want their steering assistance levels to feel. If BMW "fakes" the assist level, then so does Porsche, Audi, Jaguar, Ferrari, Mclaren, Hyundai, and any vehicle manufacturer who employs a power assisted steering system.
It's not that complicated to get good steering feel/feedback out of even a modern EPS system.

Cadillac did it in the ATS.

1) Ensure sufficient caster to have strong natural wheel centering. 2) Brace the portions of the frame that carry the steering column/rack for stiffness. 3) Reduce friction in the steering rack.

BMW knows how to do this, they themselves produced much improved steering in the G20 330i relative to the F30 330i.

The M340i reuses the F30's steering rack, though. BIG mistake.
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      02-20-2020, 10:52 AM   #61
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Personally, I don't find the steering in Sport Plus too heavy. The steering in my old 350Z (which had hydraulic steering assist) now that was heavy. Trying to steer the thing in my old underground parking lot was quite the workout! The other thing is, although the old hydraulic racks did give you more feel, I often felt that the steering ratios were too slow (in the 350Z and my RX7's before that).

Also, I read somewhere that the 340 got the old steering because the new rack/system in the 330 wouldn't fit in the 340 (presumably because of the increased size of the 6-cylinder in the 340).

But, I agree that there is definitely less feel in these electric power steering systems - both in the 340 and my previous S4.
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      02-20-2020, 12:57 PM   #62
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Even tho the same rack from F30 has been used in the M340, it's much better and the revisions were very noticeable to me.

I have KW coilovers on my 335i and it helped with the handling etc but the steering feel is not quite as good as stock M340 IMO.
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      02-20-2020, 04:47 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westsider45 View Post
It's not that complicated to get good steering feel/feedback out of even a modern EPS system.

Cadillac did it in the ATS.

1) Ensure sufficient caster to have strong natural wheel centering. 2) Brace the portions of the frame that carry the steering column/rack for stiffness. 3) Reduce friction in the steering rack.

BMW knows how to do this, they themselves produced much improved steering in the G20 330i relative to the F30 330i.

The M340i reuses the F30's steering rack, though. BIG mistake.
I'd like to point out that my comments were about the word "natural" in regards to steering feel. To me "natural" steering feel is expressed in cars without any power assistance. A lot of information as well as noise comes through. There is good and bad for every driver's preference. With the addition of power assisted systems, and engineering improvements in the components and design of a steering system, there came a different "feel". And we got used to those. Over time there was a sense of a new "natural" steering feel, even though there was now an additional system that became embedded between the connection of the driver to steering wheel to steering system to tires.

Notice that most of the comments in this thread are not talking about or describing actual "steering feel"?
They are commenting on the level of the power steering/EPS assistance, and the differences in different "modes".

I cannot speak to the G20 as I haven't even driven one yet. I'm half way through my 2018 S4 lease, and I'm anxious to leave this car behind and get back to a BMW. This gen S4 was highly praised by testers and reviewers. In my experience with my own S4 I wonder what the hell they were smoking when they tested their S4s.
My experience, and others on an S4 forum, are similar. I think that Audi sent differently tuned S4s for testing, and then de-tuned the for sale S4s. These sport sedan also lack feel, and actually even a bit more numb than my 2016 340i Msport. Oh, it feels smooth through the steering wheel, nice and calm even when the road surface is rippled or gouged, and that sucks for me.

Porsche is one of the standout builders who did great when EPS started to come to market. It can be complex when a corporation makes decisions based on what they conclude the "market" likes and wants, and will buy.

There are articles where BMW engineers state that they intentionally designed the steering feel to come in line with what certain customers, and potential customers, complained about and what they wanted. The majority don't like more actual steering feel, because they expect the steering wheel to feel smooth and "quiet" in their hands. Cars that have very good to great steering feel transmit much more through the steering wheel, and enthusiasts like that. BMW failed in that they wanted to appeal to a larger buying consumer, and they sure did succeed with the F30, which did great in sales bringing new customers to the brand. All that to the dismay of enthusiasts.


Those who knew the distinction between "steering feel", and how the "power assist" feels, knew that the 3 series steering was excellent in terms of precision, and how well the front end could stick/track to the arc of a turn. However, those sensations that give"feel" were muted, dampened, missing.

BMW revised steering components in the LCI 2016 in attempt to bring some actual steering feel to the 3 series.

Their efforts had very modest success. I had a 2012 335i Msport, and then the LCI 2015 340i Msport. Yes, there was some added steering feel, but nothing like my former 2009 235i or my 2003 325i sport.


The F30 328i and LCI 330i didn't have anymore actual "steering feel" than the 6 cylinder variants. What the lighter front end 4cyl 3s had was a quicker, slightly more responsive front end to steering input. That was due to the lighter weight front end. However, that steering feel was no better than the heavier 6cyl variants.

I've driven many variants of the F30, and all of them equally suffer in that regard, to steering feel.

I complained too. In my opinion, it's fine for BMW to tune a 3 series that appeals to a broader market where a luxury like feel is more important to a sport sedan feel. However, when a customer wants a "sport" or "M sport" variant, BMW didn't deliver those extra nuances that I, we, wanted. They tried, half-assed, with the LCI.

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      02-23-2020, 07:48 AM   #64
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Steering is great. Feels great. Could even be heavier IMO. Hit the gym 😋
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      02-23-2020, 08:06 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
Reminds me of the F8x in sport mode. It was just overly heavy for no reason.
sport or sport plus on f8x is great when its raining and you might over correct when hydroplaning or doing some hard off-ramp at ridiculous speed and need more resistance to be stable.

m340 sport plus is lighter than f8x sport by a good bit!
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