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      07-26-2014, 05:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Not nearly as huge as after the invasion. And the fact that they haven't stopped is due to the chaos we left. We broke Iraq. In addition to being immoral, and so very costly to our brave soldiers and their families, it was stupid in so many ways, not least in the damage it's done to our national security. The rise of Iran, the rise of ISIS, the fact that Iraq is now a base for any number of terrorists, etc. etc.

We broke Iraq for no good reason, we're responsible for the consequences. Lord knows if a miracle had occurred, and Iraq had become a stable democracy, the neoconservatives would be claiming the credit. They richly deserve the blame for what actually happened. Now they want us to go back. Yeah, that was such a treat last time. And they want us to invade Syria, too.

Libya is descending into chaos, also. We've closed the embassy. Is it not dawning on people that being dependent on oil (it doesn't matter where we get ours from, the price is set by a world market driven by Middle East oil, and very sensitive to the chaos there) is a bad thing? Ditto the EUs energy dependence on Russian fossil fuel, which absolutely supports Putin's behavior. No need for Russian fossil fuel, and he'd be on better behavior, since strong US-EU sanctions would destroy his economy.

There's also the minor factor that the only way we can get people to Earth orbit is on Russian rockets.
We didn't "break" Iraq - it was clearly a mess before we entered. Not sure what a "neoconservative" is, but I would put the blame on the Obama administration for the wholesale exit (not leaving any US oversight), against the strong recommendations of even his own military advisors.

I thought Germany was doing very well on their "green" energy efforts, and a model for other EU nations? Aren't they past the need for fossil fuels? And if they still need them, shouldn't Obama have approved the US/Canadian oil pipeline many years ago, to provide more fuel worldwide? Wouldn't that have reduced the cost of oil today, which is 3x what it was when he took office?
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      07-26-2014, 05:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
You're right. But I'm right, too. What you see is a small minority. We could all take steps to keep that the case.

It's also true that there's recently been a frightening rise in anti-Semitism in some native Europeans, including some fairly powerful political leaders. All Western nations need to strongly reinforce the value of universal religious tolerance, and oppose bigotry in any form. Any politician preaching bigotry needs to be ostracized.
Perhaps we should include the middle-eastern/Arab nations as well, especially those receiving substantial amounts of US/UN aid? And if they don't agree, their aid gets cut off?
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      07-26-2014, 05:55 PM   #25
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Are you saying that Israel is occupying Palestinian soil? Because that would be incorrect.
Huh? You don't think there is israeli occupation????? Explain
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      07-26-2014, 05:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Or cutting US aid to Arab/Muslim countries, who consistently vote against us at the UN, as well as provide anti-terrorist US havens (e.g. Pakistan, Egypt, and now Iraq).
What the hell are you talking about? What terrorists do iraq egypt and pakistan sponsor? Do you follow the same news everyone else follows?
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      07-26-2014, 06:00 PM   #27
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I must have missed that - do you have a link?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nstrators.html
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      07-26-2014, 06:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Not sure what a "neoconservative" is.

Shouldn't Obama have approved the US/Canadian oil pipeline many years ago, to provide more fuel worldwide? Wouldn't that have reduced the cost of oil today, which is 3x what it was when he took office?
Neoconservative - "Neoconservatism is a political movement born in the United States during the 1960s. Neoconservatives frequently advocate the assertive promotion of democracy and promotion of American national interest in international affairs by means of military force. Many of its adherents rose to political fame during the Republican presidential administrations of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Neoconservatives peaked in influence during the presidency of George W. Bush, when they played a major role in promoting and planning the invasion of Iraq. Prominent neoconservatives in the Bush administration included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle, and Paul Bremer."

Pretty much a list of the idiots who drove us to invade Iraq, for no good reason. Iraq was not broken at the time, it was a fairly stable dictatorship, and one which did not harbor terrorists, because Saddam was afraid they'd take him out. It was a reasonably strong military power in the region, one which helped keep Iran in check. Invading Iraq was maybe the biggest strategic political blunder in US history. Even more importantly, we sacrificed an unacceptable number of brave American soldiers, and destroyed a lot of their families. Spent a trillion dollars, all told. All to make us less safe.

As far as the price of oil goes, the increase under Obama was simply due to his fixing the economy. In January 2001, when Bush took office it was about $38. In July 2008 it had reached about $135. Then, as the economy crashed, so did the price of oil. To pick the bottom of that crash as your starting point is a ridiculous example of cherrypicking the data. We're basically slightly below where we were in 2008, which is simply to be expected, given that the economy has recovered to about that point.

Transporting Canadian oil overseas would make a very small change in the world price. While it would make a lot of money for the oil companies, the reason why it's being pushed, the savings to us would be nonexistent, or even negative. We buy essentially all of this oil production that is not used in Canada now, at a slight discount because Canada has no other market. Mostly Keystone XL would just send that oil to more lucrative markets overseas, the increase in world production would be trivial. Given that we'd lose this cheap oil, on balance we'd lose money on the deal.

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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Are you saying that Israel is occupying Palestinian soil? Because that would be incorrect.
No, it wouldn't, in practice. The West Bank is approximately 80% Palestinian and 20% Israeli. At a bare minimum, they're basically a colonial power there. That rarely works out well. Ask Great Britain. Or France.

What's an "anti-terrorist us haven"? We give money to Egypt and Pakistan because we're basically bribing them not to be more hostile. We do the same in Iraq for that reason plus we broke it so we own it. More examples of how our foreign policy is hostage to our dependence on oil.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-26-2014 at 07:13 PM..
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      07-27-2014, 06:19 PM   #29
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      07-28-2014, 12:22 AM   #30
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Hey thanks for the laugh. That was the funniest piece of propaganda I have seen in a while
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      07-28-2014, 01:05 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The reports I saw on AJAM showed the reason for the high civilian casualties was because HAMAS was (intentionally?) placing their arms caches in places like hospitals, as well as the fact that caches are placed in neighborhoods where the civilian population is very dense.

That was about 2 days ago, so I'm not clear on the UN hospital bombing.

Re the Israeli army guys cheering, that is to be expected of military-trained young men/women. Are they cheering that civilians are dying, probably not. Are they cheering to see big-ass explosions on the enemy's land, I needn't explain that, do I?
I agree with everything you just said.

Now just to play devil's advocate, what if it were the U.S. doing these bombings. No way would the international community find that acceptable.

Do you think that instead Israel should be using concentrated air strikes as opposed to bombing raids and/or foot soldiers to take out specific targets.

What is the balance, if there is one, do you think Israel is actively trying to meet that balance or just trying to show force?
To be fair...we have gotten away with it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomi...a_and_Nagasaki
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      07-28-2014, 10:21 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Maybe you should advocate cutting US aid to israel
I have in the past, to my elected officials. And guess what, they didn't do as I asked
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      07-28-2014, 10:26 AM   #33
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So, after the (12 hour?) humanitarian cease fire, who launched more rockets?

I watched an episode of Star Trek:NG over the weekend. Pritt and Kess had been fighting and hadn't spoke in over 100 years. The only way to get them even in the same room was to beam one party directly to the ready room. Maybe Kerry can kidnap leaders from both parties and take them to a winery in Paris?
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      07-28-2014, 12:08 PM   #34
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israel is fully within their right to protect its civilians. hamas has been lobbing rockets at populated civlian areas with the sole purpose to kill innocent civilians. the death toll for israel would be much higher if it weren't for the iron dome missile defense system.hamas has violated every single ceasefire agreement, they even violated their own ceasefire agreement that they proposed. they are also using their women and children as human shields and instructing them to go inside known air strike targets in order to use their civilian casualties to gain sympathy around the world. israel actually drops leaflets, makes phone calls, send text messages, to let civilians know where and when the airstrikes will be so that they can get out of the way.

the reason why israel had to go in on foot was to find and destroy the terror tunnels that they had built to infiltrate Israel in kill and kidnap as many israeli civilians as they can. http://www.jewishpress.com/news/brea...se/2014/07/27/

hamas is shooting rockets from rockets from populated areas and hides their weapons in schools, hopsitals, and mosques fully knowing that israel will retaliate. again, this is to fool the media and gains ympathy around the world. if anybody is committing war crimes it is hamas.

the bottom line is if hamas stopped firing rockets, israel would stop the operation immediately, it is as simple as that. i truly feel bad for the civilians of gaza, if they want any peace then they need to get rid of hamas which is a known terrorist organization that has ties tot eh muslim brotherhood and isis.
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      07-28-2014, 12:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
israel is fully within their right to protect its civilians. hamas has been lobbing rockets at populated civlian areas with the sole purpose to kill innocent civilians. the death toll for israel would be much higher if it weren't for the iron dome missile defense system.hamas has violated every single ceasefire agreement, they even violated their own ceasefire agreement that they proposed. they are also using their women and children as human shields and instructing them to go inside known air strike targets in order to use their civilian casualties to gain sympathy around the world. israel actually drops leaflets, makes phone calls, send text messages, to let civilians know where and when the airstrikes will be so that they can get out of the way.

the reason why israel had to go in on foot was to find and destroy the terror tunnels that they had built to infiltrate Israel in kill and kidnap as many israeli civilians as they can. http://www.jewishpress.com/news/brea...se/2014/07/27/

hamas is shooting rockets from rockets from populated areas and hides their weapons in schools, hopsitals, and mosques fully knowing that israel will retaliate. again, this is to fool the media and gains ympathy around the world. if anybody is committing war crimes it is hamas.

the bottom line is if hamas stopped firing rockets, israel would stop the operation immediately, it is as simple as that. i truly feel bad for the civilians of gaza, if they want any peace then they need to get rid of hamas which is a known terrorist organization that has ties tot eh muslim brotherhood and isis.
did you just copy and paste from the website of the israeli foreign ministry?
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      07-28-2014, 12:14 PM   #36
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i understand that alot of people are not faimilar with the situation and just see biased headlines from cnn or wtvr and they formulate their opinions based on that. a childhood friend of mine was kidnapped and murdered last year by a hamas terrorist for the sole purpose of using his dead body as a bargaining chip so that israel will release his terrorist brother who is in israeli jail for planning attacks in israel. this is a subject that i am very passionate about and i will be glad to answer any questions anybody has as well as have a civilized debate.
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      07-28-2014, 12:15 PM   #37
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did you just copy and paste from the website of the israeli foreign ministry?
absolutely did not. i have been following the situation for a long time. is this not the truth?
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      07-28-2014, 12:23 PM   #38
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. is this not the truth?
Are you kidding?
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      07-28-2014, 12:27 PM   #39
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I am more worried about Muslim immigrants in Europe using this as an excuse to go riot through the streets.
this is already happening.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/25...firming-photo/

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens...paris-n1862092
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      07-28-2014, 12:28 PM   #40
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Are you kidding?
why would i be kidding? is hamas not a known terrorist organization? does it not explicitly state in their charter to kill jews and israelis?
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      07-28-2014, 12:39 PM   #41
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why would i be kidding? is hamas not a known terrorist organization? does it not explicitly state in their charter to kill jews and israelis?
I guess defending yourself from foreing occupation makes you a terrorist. And I don't see jews and israelis being killed, only 1000 palestinian civilians including over 100 children.
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      07-28-2014, 12:41 PM   #42
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nstrators.html
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      07-28-2014, 12:49 PM   #43
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I guess defending yourself from foreing occupation makes you a terrorist. And I don't see jews and israelis being killed, only 1000 palestinian civilians including over 100 children.
again, using the difference in casualties is very misleading as israel has developed an effective way to defend its civilians via the iron dome system, bomb shelters, air raid sirens, etc. the death toll on the israeli side would be MUCH higher if it hadnt taken these measures

instead of hamas using the billions in aid that they got to help develop the economy and maybe build a defense system they use it to buy rockets and build terror tunnels to infiltrate israel and protect their ammunition.

hamas could also stop using human shields, i bet that would help with the civilian deaths in gaza

the difference here is that israel uses its weapons to protect its civilians whereas hamas uses its civilians to protect its weapons.

by the way, there is no occupation in gaza. hamas fired rockets at israeli civilians first, what would you suggest israel do? just sit under the iron dome and wait for the hamas to run out of rockets? no country would do that.
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      07-28-2014, 12:52 PM   #44
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im glad you posted that link, it is about time that the jews decided to defend themselves outside of israel. this was in response to the attacks on jews, again hamas supports starting the violence. should the jews in this case just sit back and take the beating?
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