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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) BMW M Head of Development on the new BMW M3 and BMW M4. (G80, G82. 2020)

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      07-28-2020, 04:17 PM   #221
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And that's where the dichotomy lies and why I previously stated that too many "average Joes" are getting these cars. These folks are buying the wrong car for the wrong reasons. This is shifting the buyer demographic and which in term can put the original M3(4) "design intent" at risk.

As I stated previously, the common denominator of each M3(4) generation has been a dual use car: a practical daily driver and track toy. With the F8X, Albert Biermann as the head of BMW ///M Engineering gave us the best one to date. Sadly, he left BMW because he did not like the direction ///M was taking. I am still hoping the G8X will fulfill my needs, but the preliminary info is not encouraging, with many of the key differentiators that made ///M superior to its competition gone.
I have the greatest respect for you but I think the loss of the DCT make you way to pessimistic about the G8X. I’m looking forward to see what you think once we can get our hands on these.
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      07-28-2020, 04:55 PM   #222
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I have the greatest respect for you but I think the loss of the DCT make you way to pessimistic about the G8X. I’m looking forward to see what you think once we can get our hands on these.
I am just being cautious with my enthusiasm and keeping my options open. It depends how the whole package comes out, it's not only about the DCT. I am looking forward to the reveal and even more so on test driving one (this will be the first M3/4 I want to test drive before I purchase).
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      07-28-2020, 05:29 PM   #223
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I am just being cautious with my enthusiasm and keeping my options open. It depends how the whole package comes out, it's not only about the DCT. I am looking forward to the reveal and to even more so on test driving one (this will be the first M3/4 I want to test drive before I purchase).
This ^^^.

And I would want to test drive it in a way that I know the dealership isn't going to like (or allow).
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      07-28-2020, 06:12 PM   #224
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I would agree skipping over the awd and 8at and instead developing the dct to handle 530 hp would have been great.
The DCT is torque limited, not power limited. The current DCT with its 700N-m/516lb-ft limit could have easily coped with the S58 power and torque levels with margin to spare for CS and CSL variants. It's one of the reason I am upset with the avenue of AWD on the G8X, as it forces other compromises.

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If the awd version tips 3800 lbs, then I'll be damned... that really should make everyone at least consider the other options...

The rear end of the M3 just needed some wider 285s running on PS4s w a slightly more sorted out suspension and it would hve been great... then just pimp the body w CF parts for even further weight savings. At this weight, you are almost defeating the purpose of what this car is to be.
The RWD M340i is above 3,800lb while the M340i xDrive is very close to 4,000lb. Usually, the weight reduction initiatives barely offset the added weight of the added go-fast goddies in ///M cars, plus the 8AT is heavier than the DCT, so I don't expect the G8X to be a lightweight. That being said, maybe a base 6MT stripper can near 3,700lb. But that still quite heavy for a stripper, and as you say, it defeats the purpose of such a car. We can only hope BMW pushed weight reduction even further on this gen and surprise us.
The real question to ask ourselves here... is what does bmw think of the M3 as? In my mind, the real enthusiast would want the rwd option... but w the current setup of more powerful and auto options being reserved for the awd model... we will never really know as similar vehicles w both variants will not be offered.

Does bmw think they are losing that large of a market share by people coming out of the woodwork for an awd m3? If so... i gather they think this will be a daily for many driving in the snow. To me thats not really an enthusiast vehicle but a mixed daily use car... as intended for an M3... but we are getting to the point w weight and awd / auto, why not just get anything else in the segment? Don't see the pull towards the bmw as in the past. I think I am keeping my M2 comp for quite a while...
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      07-28-2020, 06:26 PM   #225
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This is an interesting discussion.

Always thought it's a balance between catering to the car enthusiasts vs "brand enthusiasts". Sway too far to the car enthusiasts and they don't make money. Sway too far to the brand enthusiasts and you lose your identity. I think we all know where BMW is at.

Granted it seems like the entire industry is heading to that direction, automation, ease to operate, etc.

Now I'm not going the say the BMW or M badge doesn't mean anything when it comes to the cachet of owning such car, but I would not buy a car with a BMW or M badge without the content of what it meant to have that badge.
It would be great if the M Division was made it's own stand alone sub brand so we could see what those engineers can do without having BMW bean counters breathing over their shoulders. To me, that would really bring some class back to what M use to stand for. I think the M divisions identity over the past couple years as gotten murkier and murkier.
The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.
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      07-28-2020, 06:29 PM   #226
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The real question to ask ourselves here... is what does bmw think of the M3 as? In my mind, the real enthusiast would want the rwd option... but w the current setup of more powerful and auto options being reserved for the awd model... we will never really know as similar vehicles w both variants will not be offered.

Does bmw think they are losing that large of a market share by people coming out of the woodwork for an awd m3? If so... i gather they think this will be a daily for many driving in the snow. To me thats not really an enthusiast vehicle but a mixed daily use car... as intended for an M3... but we are getting to the point w weight and awd / auto, why not just get anything else in the segment? Don't see the pull towards the bmw as in the past. I think I am keeping my M2 comp for quite a while...
Honestly, the M2 is essentially the new M3 and is having its E39 moment right now, while the M3's nameplate is iconic, I have a feeling the M2 will be favored more so over the M3 as time goes by and the cars grow in size and lose more feedback. Its clear that while it may not sell in as large numbers, its the halo car of the brand, and the best current definition of "the ultimate driving machine."
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      07-28-2020, 06:31 PM   #227
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The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.
That's why he said sub brand, similar to what Alpina is and what AMG use to be.
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      07-28-2020, 06:37 PM   #228
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Because I can by an M3. This is America and it doesn't have to make sense and I really am not being a smart ass when I say this. I just don't believe in trashing a product because it doesn't meet your needs or chastise a individual because they buy that product and not use it for said purpose. I believe a M3 is a car that can be tracked to some point but in most cases driven daily my most consumers. Its purely a material object that most consumers can't afford or have no need for.
It is actually funny to see how serious people on this forum are getting bent out of shape about this. If i am fortunate enough to get this car, I will enjoy to the most of my capabilities which will be minimal and probably laughable.
I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.
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Because I can by an M3. This is America and it doesn't have to make sense and I really am not being a smart ass when I say this. I just don't believe in trashing a product because it doesn't meet your needs or chastise a individual because they buy that product and not use it for said purpose. I believe a M3 is a car that can be tracked to some point but in most cases driven daily my most consumers. Its purely a material object that most consumers can't afford or have no need for.
It is actually funny to see how serious people on this forum are getting bent out of shape about this. If i am fortunate enough to get this car, I will enjoy to the most of my capabilities which will be minimal and probably laughable.
I think the point that CanAutM3 was making is that it is of course fine for anybody to buy an M3 instead of an M340i "because they can afford it", but it's then a little strange to then ask BMW to make that M3 drive more like the M340i.

You can see why this would become a point of frustration for the small set of enthusiasts who buy the M3 for precisely the reasons that make it less friendly as a daily driver (and were prepared to pay extra for it)? They no longer have an option.

Knowing that Audi, Benz and BMW are all going in this direction doesn't help. An Audi RS5 is a complete monster, and their Quattro system is amazing - but I just don't find their cars engaging to drive. An AMG C63S is luxurious and a beast in a straight line, but feels really heavy when you start to drive it harder. My F82 feels very different to those cars... and I tolerate many small problems for that reason. I hope that there is still a noticeable differentiation between these cars in the next generation.
Yes, I do get it and he is correct but the M3 comes with better seats and other options (US cars) and i will act a little hooligan at times and I am sure the M340i will be sufficient enough. I am coming from owning 5 seven series and the M3 seems to check all the boxes for me. I may still get M340i bit am holding off until I see the M3 without camouflage.
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      07-28-2020, 06:38 PM   #229
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That's why he said sub brand, similar to what Alpina is and what AMG use to be.
...and what ///M used to be.
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      07-28-2020, 06:50 PM   #230
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The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.
M use to be a sub brand before 1993 when BMW brought it in house. Same goes for AMG.
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      07-28-2020, 06:52 PM   #231
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The M division could not and would not build its own car... all of their cars are based off off bmw's. They are a car "tuner" in house and not a manufacturer.
M use to be a sub brand before 1993 when BMW brought it in house. Same goes for AMG.
I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?
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      07-28-2020, 06:59 PM   #232
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I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?
Nobody is saying M should build a bespoke car. Having M become a sub brand again means you're giving the engineers and designers the freedom to go build the M car that they think would be the ideal M car instead of what the bean counters over at BMW think what the ideal M car is.

Two different philosophies.
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      07-28-2020, 07:02 PM   #233
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AWD is not standard it’s an option (RWD is standard) to an option (competition model). To wring your hands in agony over BMW abandoning the M3 legacy by “going AWD” and reaching 4K lbs isn’t really fair or true is it?

AWD is an option for those who are prepared to trade some traditions for a lot of extra speed. For some like myself I’m looking forward to trying it out, not because I no longer appreciate low weight and MT transmission etc. but because I’m open and willing to try different things. If it doesn’t work out, well it’s just a trade away to the “purer” version or something else.
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      07-28-2020, 07:02 PM   #234
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I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?
That's not the point that is being made. Having M become a sub brand again means you're giving the engineers and designers freedom to go build a car that they think would be the ideal M car instead of what the bean counters over at BMW think what the best car would be.
I dont entirely believe that gets you away from the corporate overlords... if u say 93, that means no bmw since the early e36s was that... thats far removed from reality at this point... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.
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      07-28-2020, 07:03 PM   #235
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I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?
The M1
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      07-28-2020, 07:03 PM   #236
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AWD is not standard it's an option (RWD is standard) to an option (competition model). To wring your hands in agony over BMW abandoning the M3 legacy by "going AWD" and reaching 4K lbs isn't really fair or true is it?

AWD is an option for those who are prepared to trade some traditions for a lot of extra speed. For some like myself I'm looking forward to trying it out, not because I no longer appreciate low weight and MT transmission etc. but because I'm open and willing to try different things. If it doesn't work out, well it's just a trade away to the "purer" version or something else.
For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?
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      07-28-2020, 07:04 PM   #237
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I dont entirely believe that gets you away from the corporate overlords... if u say 93, that means no bmw since the early e36s was that... thats far removed from reality at this point... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.
Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.
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      07-28-2020, 07:04 PM   #238
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I am confused how any of that differs... which M car is or has ever not been a BMW in body?
The M1
oh uuu
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      07-28-2020, 07:07 PM   #239
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I dont entirely believe that gets you away from the corporate overlords... if u say 93, that means no bmw since the early e36s was that... thats far removed from reality at this point... especially considering BMW doesnt even take competitive racing seriously anymore.
Just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not true.
ok... not sure how some of you guys arrive at these conclusions... bmw m was formed as an expansion to help bmw's racing program... that program no longer exists... the baseline for these production models was always base BMWs... nothing would change that... unless you are saying bmw M builds 100 off cars for enthusiasts, then maybe you'd be right.
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      07-28-2020, 07:08 PM   #240
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For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?
Because getting down 500+ horsepower and 400+ ft lbs of torque to the ground is impossible. The F8x was criticized for just that. Lack of traction.
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      07-28-2020, 07:08 PM   #241
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For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?
As I understand it they will offer the competition model as RWD and AWD with RWD being the standard competition drive type available at launch with AWD an optional drive type to the competition model that is launched later. Hence AWD is an option to an option...
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For what legitimate reason would BMW not offer the higher powered auto rwd model?
Because getting down 500+ horsepower and 400+ ft lbs of torque to the ground is impossible. The F8x was criticized for just that. Lack of traction.
yes... the Giulia and the C63s suffer this same fate... as do plenty of other cars... or maybe bmw engineers suck at putting a proper diff in with decently sized rear tires?
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