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      07-30-2020, 10:02 AM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19x View Post
At least we know where BMW is headed... nowhere.
What’s about this video that makes you think “BMW is headed nowhere” ?
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      07-30-2020, 11:06 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Law View Post
Still, despite the sad reality that the coveted M is no longer as uniquely niche, special, or connected to motorsport as before, in almost all categories, I would still take the equivalent M Car over its AMG, quattro (RS), F, or V equivalent.

I, for one, applaud BMW M for continuing to offer the manual transmission, even as its adoption rate is fading into single digits.
One reason why MT is in single digit sales is that regional BMW HQs refuse to certify 6MT. Japan is probably the only country that still gets F8x 6MTs in Asia.

That is why I think it was even more important to have DCT in these cars, because it is a statement to the whole world that their motorsport inspired driving experience is what differentiates the brand from the rest.
I'm almost thinking for the next M3/M4 CS or CSL, they'll switch to an 8 or 9 speed dual clutch to further differentiate those top models and by doing so, justify their enormous price tag.
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      07-30-2020, 11:10 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by wayman519 View Post
These forums use to be all of us awing at the car and bragging about how it is so much better than, mercedes, audi, porsche, infinity, Cadillac , lexus etc. Now its just people saying come on give this car a chance. We are on these forums because we loved BMWs from before we could drive. We have lived through 2 BMW generations before we could drive, and maybe another before justifying paying for one or more. We know these cars even though we have not owned them all. We wanted most of them until now. Paul Rosche is gone, Biermann left, BMW have no F1 team. Might be time to look elsewhere for a proper driving experience.
I'm sorry and I hate to be "that guy," but have you driven the current generation M3/M4 compared to BMW's competitors? Have you tracked an F8x Competition against even a 911 Carrera S and been impressed? Have you driven the next generation and are you qualified to discuss the driving experience?

You're just pissed off about the grilles like every other person who's crying over a car yet-to-be-revealed.
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      07-30-2020, 11:19 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
I'm sorry and I hate to be "that guy," but have you driven the current generation M3/M4 compared to BMW's competitors? Have you tracked an F8x Competition against even a 911 Carrera S and been impressed? Have you driven the next generation and are you qualified to discuss the driving experience?

You're just pissed off about the grilles like every other person who's crying over a car yet-to-be-revealed.
I am crying and I won't deny that. But don't pretend everything is ok. Somebody has to speak up otherwise autonomous cars is all we will have left.
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      07-30-2020, 11:33 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by wayman519 View Post
I am crying and I won't deny that. But don't pretend everything is ok. Somebody has to speak up
Enthusiasts spoke, primarily with their wallets, and BMW heard you loud and clear. That's why they are still building high performance RWD vehicles with available manual transmissions in 2021 and onward until at least the end of the decade.

Sometimes the answer is pausing to take inventory of the exceptional things we have access to, and even if just for a moment, weighing that against whatever complaints (however valid) still remain.

Quote:
otherwise autonomous cars is all we will have left.
Some version of that reality is coming either way. But, there will still be vehicles for those who want to drive.
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      07-30-2020, 12:56 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by wayman519 View Post
I am crying and I won't deny that. But don't pretend everything is ok. Somebody has to speak up otherwise autonomous cars is all we will have left.
I absolutely love the new grilles FYI lol.
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      07-30-2020, 01:48 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Enthusiasts spoke, primarily with their wallets, and BMW heard you loud and clear. That's why they are still building high performance RWD vehicles with available manual transmissions in 2021 and onward until at least the end of the decade.

Sometimes the answer is pausing to take inventory of the exceptional things we have access to, and even if just for a moment, weighing that against whatever complaints (however valid) still remain.



Some version of that reality is coming either way. But, there will still be vehicles for those who want to drive.
Well said and case in point, what we know the standard G8X will only be available with RWD and MT. Just like the E30 M3 and unlike any competitor and any super/hyper car I can think of. People should pause and think about that for a moment before lambasting the M division for not having any real car guys left.
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      07-30-2020, 01:50 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by frankiebones View Post
I absolutely love the new grilles FYI lol.
Nice lol, I know these cars need serious cooling so there is a benefit! But do find it hard to let go of the F80 and F90 face. Interior design looks good!
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      08-01-2020, 02:05 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Not sure what there is to complain about? This a video that pre-views the track improvements. The head of M development confirms that the car is significantly more powerful, stable and capable of higher lateral acceleration. Music to the ears of anyone looking for a faster track car. Tell any racing driver this including F1 drivers and they will be over the moon.
99% of BMW drivers are not really looking for a track car and 99% of people looking for a track car are not looking to buy a brand new BMW.
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      08-01-2020, 02:11 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Automotive Enthusiast View Post
I understand the physics aspect but the point I was trying to make was that you'll never get anywhere near the limits of the car on your favorite backroad to get any enough weight transfer for it to remotely matter. Backroads are not able to exploit any of the disadvantages of the weight of the car.

I actually didn't know that about the Panamera. Thank you for sharing that with me.
Maybe...you certainly feel the size of the car though. Length and width matter - particularly driving good mountain roads, etc.
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      08-01-2020, 02:17 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
Honestly, the M2 is essentially the new M3 and is having its E39 moment right now, while the M3's nameplate is iconic, I have a feeling the M2 will be favored more so over the M3 as time goes by and the cars grow in size and lose more feedback. Its clear that while it may not sell in as large numbers, its the halo car of the brand, and the best current definition of "the ultimate driving machine."
Agree. Many here want the M3 to be what the M2 for the most part is. And if you ask why not the M2 they will point to things they like about the M3 that have little to do with performance.
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      08-01-2020, 01:17 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoale View Post
99% of BMW drivers are not really looking for a track car and 99% of people looking for a track car are not looking to buy a brand new BMW.
The same attributes that make it a good track car are what makes it special in spirited driving elsewhere. It’s a large part of what make the M3 more enjoyable than the competing cars from Benz and Audi and why many professional reviewers prefer the Alfa over those two on and off the track.

There are many car types with special abilities as off-road prowess that are being bought for capabilities far exceeding what they are used for but when you use some of it whether it’s while being snowed in, during a flooding or just having fun on a beach or forest road you enjoy it more than cars that are less capable so the fans of them are very interested in reviews showing improvements in these areas and the cars with the best abilities will be favorites just as the M3 is a favorite among daily cars with track capabilities.
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      08-01-2020, 02:04 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The same attributes that make it a good track car are what makes it special in spirited driving elsewhere. It’s a large part of what make the M3 more enjoyable than the competing cars from Benz and Audi and why many professional reviewers prefer the Alfa over those two on and off the track.

There are many car types with special abilities as off-road prowess that are being bought for capabilities far exceeding what they are used for but when you use some of it whether it’s while being snowed in, during a flooding or just having fun on a beach or forest road you enjoy it more than cars that are less capable so the fans of them are very interested in reviews showing improvements in these areas and the cars with the best abilities will be favorites just as the M3 is a favorite among daily cars with track capabilities.
Think this is true, performance development on race tracks has always served M well.

But as performance limitations are increased that can be at the expense of day to day interactivity. The performance ceiling becomes so high that it's essentially inaccessible on-road. New M5 suffers from this effect, imo. Seems like it's bored, pretty much always.

Particularly interested to see if the G8X is engaging well under the performance limit. That might be their biggest challenge.

Haven't driven a Giulia, but my understanding is that much of the fanfare has to do with its consistent engagement factor -- quick steering, engine presence, etc.
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      08-01-2020, 02:27 PM   #278
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Haven't driven a Giulia, but my understanding is that much of the fanfare has to do with its consistent engagement factor -- quick steering, engine presence, etc.
My biggest mistake was driving the Giulia... I fell in love Okay, not really but that car was so good it almost ruined any other car for me, even the 4-cylinder variant drives exceptionally well.
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      08-01-2020, 02:47 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaMMM View Post
Think this is true, performance development on race tracks has always served M well.

But as performance limitations are increased that can be at the expense of day to day interactivity. The performance ceiling becomes so high that it's essentially inaccessible on-road. New M5 suffers from this effect, imo. Seems like it's bored, pretty much always.

Particularly interested to see if the G8X is engaging well under the performance limit. That might be their biggest challenge.

Haven't driven a Giulia, but my understanding is that much of the fanfare has to do with its consistent engagement factor -- quick steering, engine presence, etc.
True about the M5 but it’s never really had ambitions to be a weekend track car. I’m optimistic that BMW want this differentiation to remain for the M3 not to render the M5 obsolete. I.e. the M5 will remain the more luxurious executive autobahn missile it’s always been and the M3 will remain the more communicative track friendly car. There certainly isn’t anything in this video that says differently.
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      08-01-2020, 04:52 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
True about the M5 but it’s never really had ambitions to be a weekend track car. I’m optimistic that BMW want this differentiation to remain for the M3 not to render the M5 obsolete. I.e. the M5 will remain the more luxurious executive autobahn missile it’s always been and the M3 will remain the more communicative track friendly car. There certainly isn’t anything in this video that says differently.
Agreed. Hoping they aim for a major differentiation in engagement factor. Don't need a mini M5, objectively capable as it might be.
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      08-01-2020, 04:56 PM   #281
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A couple of things to take away from reading this entire thread
1) BMW M division is intentionally moving driver's away from a manual transmission by lowering the horsepower available on the G80 compared to the Automatics
I'm going to suggest the reduction in power in the 6MT models is because at higher speeds the 8AT and AWD will lose quite a bit more power through the drivetrain than the 6MT RWD, we'll find out once people get them on the dyno. I suspect the wheel figures will be very similar.
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      08-01-2020, 04:59 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by petrolhead. View Post
3. better / longer lasting brakes on the front (cooling?) without the need to resort to carbon ceramics
We're getting 6 piston on the front with steel brakes. That will provide larger front pads
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      08-03-2020, 09:41 AM   #283
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Well... that was a waste of 4:30 of my life.
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      08-03-2020, 10:34 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by brad850csi View Post
I'm going to suggest the reduction in power in the 6MT models is because at higher speeds the 8AT and AWD will lose quite a bit more power through the drivetrain than the 6MT RWD, we'll find out once people get them on the dyno. I suspect the wheel figures will be very similar.
that and awd will be +150 lbs
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      08-09-2020, 06:20 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
My biggest mistake was driving the Giulia... I fell in love Okay, not really but that car was so good it almost ruined any other car for me, even the 4-cylinder variant drives exceptionally well.
I like the Gulia, but it didn’t ruin any car for me.
It has a very fast steering, it feels small with a very precise front end.

However, such a setup is only great for short rides, or empty canyon roads, etc. On the highway, overly quick steering becomes a hassle. The car feels jiggly and needs too much steering input. Also, the interior is BMW copycat in terms of design, but about 10 years behind of all German competitors in terms of feel and quality.
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      08-12-2020, 07:59 AM   #286
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
So why would there not be a manual competition? Odd
More odd (but cool) is no AT option for the standard M3/M4. Last time that happened was the E46. So much for going soft and luxurious huh..

It's a much bolder move than no MT for the competition model. It risk alienating a fair share of non MT M3 drivers when they need to reach for another $6-7k or so for the competition model. The number of MT drivers that risk leaving due to no MT in the comp. is likely a lot less. At this stage MT drivers are happy for scraps as long as they can still have it at all
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