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      07-27-2020, 01:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Disagree my friend. I know you have sour grapes with your former 540i and respect but disagree with your point of view. I don't track cars and there are no canyons where I live, so the driving and handling dynamics of this car are more than satisfying for what I expect and want on this class of car.

My E90 as lovely as it was wit its handling and more analogue steering/driving experience was on the harsh side with a suspension that transmitted way too much into the interior compartment and an artificially heavy power steering that made low speed maneuvers and parking needlessly high effort.

I get my opinion is unpopular on a enthusiast forum whose generally demeanor as of late is to hate on anything BMW does these days but I believe they still get many things right for those of us that drive and use our cars like the rest of people do: in the street.
The thing is most of the current BMW's aren't more fun to drive then their Mercedes equivalents, and some modern MB's actually have better steering. The whole point of BMW in my opinion was that it's a more sporty car, and if you wanted something more comfy like you do, you would purchase a Benz.

It's all fine I guess, but they shouldn't still be advertising their cars as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" if they are going to continue to keep releasing cars with the same dreary personalities.
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      07-27-2020, 01:17 PM   #24
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If the 5 Series can have Tesla Model S range, then that would be awesome. I like to lease and BMW leases are so much better than Tesla leases.
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      07-27-2020, 01:26 PM   #25
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If the 5 Series can have Tesla Model S range, then that would be awesome. I like to lease and BMW leases are so much better than Tesla leases.
It will certainly have over 300 miles of range.

It is not necessarily likely that it will achieve the 400 miles of range that Tesla has with the Long Range Plus Model S. However, since the car is still three or more years away, it is at least remotely possible. Of course, Tesla will improve range over that period as well. Now, practically speaking, there's a limit to how high range numbers will climb, but I think we are still a few years away from hitting that figure.
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      07-27-2020, 01:28 PM   #26
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I honestly think if BMW gave the 3-series Merino leather and nicer materials and multi-contour seats (US doesn't get this sadly) a lot of 5-series owners would switch. The new 3 is also extremely close in interior dimensions to the 5 despite being a "compact" car. Interior materials and a V8 are the only things holding it back from capturing the 5er's market.
Bingo. I would even be in an M340 wagon if they would bring it here, and then open the full Individual program up to it.
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      07-27-2020, 02:03 PM   #27
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Well, they started so well with the i01, with a Carbon core, highly advanced back then.
I'm on my second i3, first a 1 gen 16', then the 3'rd gen 2020 model.
But i'm also living in Norway.

What happens next, BMW choose the budget solution, one chassi using ice and EV.
The latter is to important to make a the future drivetrain with a budget chassi, MB are turning away from this solution, so it's BMW and Hyundai... classy!
The IX3 is a disaster next to e-tron and EQC and i-pace. I4 should be better, and hopefully the inext as well, but BMW needs to build their EV from the ground up.
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      07-27-2020, 02:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffode View Post
The thing is most of the current BMW's aren't more fun to drive then their Mercedes equivalents, and some modern MB's actually have better steering. The whole point of BMW in my opinion was that it's a more sporty car, and if you wanted something more comfy like you do, you would purchase a Benz.

It's all fine I guess, but they shouldn't still be advertising their cars as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" if they are going to continue to keep releasing cars with the same dreary personalities.
I think that's kind of 530iDriver's point.

The stuff added much to the chagrin of enthusiasts like better infotainment, fancy seats, and advanced driver assistance systems (among other things) are much appreciated by us who drive the car on public roads only.

Driving it as a track toy or even wanting as much performance out of it as possible the extra weight of all of those things are a real drag. But the market for people wanting a track toy only is quite a lot smaller.

For me, I want a car that performs well so I an overtake without delay and have creature comforts too. The highways in Philly are a parking lot...

But I respect that each of us want different things. Definitely not easy to optimize for if you're a car maker like BMW. Perhaps they should offer a "bare bones" trim even more bare than the base model.
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      07-27-2020, 03:24 PM   #29
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Well, they started so well with the i01, with a Carbon core, highly advanced back then.
I'm on my second i3, first a 1 gen 16', then the 3'rd gen 2020 model.
But i'm also living in Norway.

What happens next, BMW choose the budget solution, one chassi using ice and EV.
The latter is to important to make a the future drivetrain with a budget chassi, MB are turning away from this solution, so it's BMW and Hyundai... classy!
The IX3 is a disaster next to e-tron and EQC and i-pace. I4 should be better, and hopefully the inext as well, but BMW needs to build their EV from the ground up.
I absolutely agree... BMW will fail without a entry level ground up EV

Polestar 2, Volvo XC40 Recharge, VW ID.4 and Tesla Model Y will all dominate over BMW's X1

Mercedes just canceled 7 models today, so how many will BMW be canceling beyond the 8er Coupe & Convertible ?


https://www.businessinsider.com/merc...-report-2020-7
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      07-27-2020, 04:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ted99 View Post
Missed the boat for me. I would have bought any of these at the start of the year, but none available (I had a 2014 i3 for 3 years), so I bought the 2020 530e. I'll be trading it in 2022 or 2023 but it won't be for any of these EV's on a modified ICE platform. It will be a dedicated EV on a skateboard platform (yes, the i-Next is this, but it's bigger than I want for my in-town use if it's the rumored size of the X5). I think BMW is too late with these combo ICE/PHEV/EV platforms. Their moment was last year to 2021. Rumor is that M-B is going to discontinue their reworked GLC to EQC EV after 2021 for a dedicated EV platform EQC. There is speculation that M-B now considers the combo platform to have been a mistake. I fear that BMW being late to the game with their combo platforms will hit them badly in cash flow after 2021 and their status as an independent manufacturer is in danger.
You can't be serious? EV's accounted for 2.6% of global sales in 2019. If BMW converted their entire lineup to EV today I certainly agree their status as independent manufacturer would be in danger as they would be catering to an extremely small minority of buyers. It's not a race to totally convert to EV as automakers are going to have to straddle the line between being able to sell cars today as well as tomorrow. Forums are full of emotional posters which is why we see a lot of posts like above but we are the minority as the masses who look at automobiles strictly as transportation don't really care either way what they drive and will simply purchase the cheapest vehicle that fills their needs. If I was a betting man BMW will probably be one of the last manufacturers standing as there are many manufacturers in much more precarious situations such as Chrysler, GM, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, any British automaker, etc. I would expect some of them will not be around next decade but I wouldn't worry too much about BMW as they will be fine. The fact that BMW missed the boat for you means absolutely nothing in the big picture.
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      07-27-2020, 05:07 PM   #31
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Agree with the below. In no way has BMW missed the boat. Majority of consumers still drive gas cars and will continue too, since gas is so cheap. Gas cars are much cheaper than EV, EV takes a long time to charge on a road trip (at least I think it does) and range anxiety. Also need a much more comprehensive network of EV charging stations, like gas stations for it to be wide spread acceptance. We have a ways to go, but it seems to be changing rapidly.

EV has to get to the point of more range and less loss with air conditioner, heater, etc on for people that drive a lot too.

I am an EV proponent and was close to buying a Tesla, but will wait it out another 3 years and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
You can't be serious? EV's accounted for 2.6% of global sales in 2019. If BMW converted their entire lineup to EV today I certainly agree their status as independent manufacturer would be in danger as they would be catering to an extremely small minority of buyers. It's not a race to totally convert to EV as automakers are going to have to straddle the line between being able to sell cars today as well as tomorrow. Forums are full of emotional posters which is why we see a lot of posts like above but we are the minority as the masses who look at automobiles strictly as transportation don't really care either way what they drive and will simply purchase the cheapest vehicle that fills their needs. If I was a betting man BMW will probably be one of the last manufacturers standing as there are many manufacturers in much more precarious situations such as Chrysler, GM, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, any British automaker, etc. I would expect some of them will not be around next decade but I wouldn't worry too much about BMW as they will be fine. The fact that BMW missed the boat for you means absolutely nothing in the big picture.
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      07-27-2020, 05:07 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted99 View Post
Missed the boat for me. I would have bought any of these at the start of the year, but none available (I had a 2014 i3 for 3 years), so I bought the 2020 530e. I'll be trading it in 2022 or 2023 but it won't be for any of these EV's on a modified ICE platform. It will be a dedicated EV on a skateboard platform (yes, the i-Next is this, but it's bigger than I want for my in-town use if it's the rumored size of the X5). I think BMW is too late with these combo ICE/PHEV/EV platforms. Their moment was last year to 2021. Rumor is that M-B is going to discontinue their reworked GLC to EQC EV after 2021 for a dedicated EV platform EQC. There is speculation that M-B now considers the combo platform to have been a mistake. I fear that BMW being late to the game with their combo platforms will hit them badly in cash flow after 2021 and their status as an independent manufacturer is in danger.
You can't be serious? EV's accounted for 2.6% of global sales in 2019. If BMW converted their entire lineup to EV today I certainly agree their status as independent manufacturer would be in danger as they would be catering to an extremely small minority of buyers. It's not a race to totally convert to EV as automakers are going to have to straddle the line between being able to sell cars today as well as tomorrow. Forums are full of emotional posters which is why we see a lot of posts like above but we are the minority as the masses who look at automobiles strictly as transportation don't really care either way what they drive and will simply purchase the cheapest vehicle that fills their needs. If I was a betting man BMW will probably be one of the last manufacturers standing as there are many manufacturers in much more precarious situations such as Chrysler, GM, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, any British automaker, etc. I would expect some of them will not be around next decade but I wouldn't worry too much about BMW as they will be fine. The fact that BMW missed the boat for you means absolutely nothing in the big picture.
EV sales are strong enough to create a domino effect

All auto manufacturers are scrambling to change their portfolios

I have no doubt BMW will survive vs the sinking ship of Nissan and others alike

Electrification, Connectivity & Autonomous driving are the future
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      07-27-2020, 05:54 PM   #33
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"I honestly think if BMW gave the 3-series Merino leather and nicer materials and multi-contour seats (US doesn't get this sadly) a lot of 5-series owners would switch. The new 3 is also extremely close in interior dimensions to the 5 despite being a "compact" car. Interior materials and a V8 are the only things holding it back from capturing the 5er's market."

I completely agree. I only changed from a 3 series to a 5 series for those reasons. I don't expect BMW to give me the better leather, etc. for free; I was and am willing to pay for it. But the company doesn't give us the choice.
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      07-27-2020, 06:17 PM   #34
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interested to see how these sell
Quite market dependant. US is a whole different ballgame Vs U.K. where now here every other car seems to be a 330e..which TBF is great.

Even for you guys in the US vastly different for Texas vs California I'd imagine EV take up is still not too practical in many states.

Interesting times.
Exciting times.
That's the distortion created by company car taxation (U.K.).

Sadly, I have learnt that some people never charge their 330e, which means lots of wasted energy lugging around batteries that aren't used, so not great at all in my book.

The situation with full EVs attracting zero company car tax means that many will make that choice and inevitably Tesla will be popular.
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      07-27-2020, 06:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GOLFFRR View Post
interested to see how these sell
Quite market dependant. US is a whole different ballgame Vs U.K. where now here every other car seems to be a 330e..which TBF is great.

Even for you guys in the US vastly different for Texas vs California I'd imagine EV take up is still not too practical in many states.

Interesting times.
Exciting times.
The US needs the charging networks expanded at a rapid rate

Otherwise there is currently a huge limitation
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      07-27-2020, 07:32 PM   #36
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A full electric 5 would be killer great.
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      07-27-2020, 09:30 PM   #37
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Model s is bland compared to Porche tycan. BMW 5 series will be more oriented to diving dynamics and make the s and 3 seem like appliances.
They already are appliances, and many of the folks buying them treat them as such. I think it's a non-issue. One of my colleagues regularly tracks his Senna, McLaren 720S, etc, but gushes about his 3 (previously had an S) as being a perfect DD with a killer sound system to boot. I think he's nuts, but the point is, these cars *are* appliances, and I don't think BMW is going to make an electric car any time soon that inspires driving passion and upends the industry. The current 5er doesn't even do that.
Have an M2 with full Dinan upgrades. I love this car and will never sell it as it's probably the last of its kind. A year ago we bought a dual motor Model 3 that is dramatically different to drive but also fun. We've driven it over 35,000 miles in the last 12 months going everywhere east of the Mississippi River with it. Zero maintenance required with it and the autopilot is pretty cool. What makes Tesla different from all other electrics is you can go almost anywhere with it via their supercharger network. There's a charger every 80 miles. We are going to add a second electric to the stable in a year or two. I want to buy an electric BMW but it can't be used to go more than 100 miles from your home. No place to fast charge. Musk figured it out.
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      07-27-2020, 09:51 PM   #38
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Depends on range and performance figures

The X1 as well as the X2 need to both be Electric
range is debatable though IMO. I use to think the low range that most "hybrid" BMWers have would be an issue but I took a 530e for a few weeks and for my daily routine I actually never put gas in it once and it had only a 20 mile range if I remember. but def would love of course BMWs to go with large ranges, no doubt! but a city guy like me who just goes from home to golf course to store here and there it was plenty.
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      07-28-2020, 01:09 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Depends on range and performance figures

The X1 as well as the X2 need to both be Electric
range is debatable though IMO. I use to think the low range that most "hybrid" BMWers have would be an issue but I took a 530e for a few weeks and for my daily routine I actually never put gas in it once and it had only a 20 mile range if I remember. but def would love of course BMWs to go with large ranges, no doubt! but a city guy like me who just goes from home to golf course to store here and there it was plenty.
Full Electric cars by today's standards definitely need to have 225-300+ miles depending on the battery chosen

Hybrids are great second vehicles... However they are more expensive than their gas counterpart and are far more complex and without a doubt need more than 20 miles of range to be a good value proposition

Were you mostly driving on Electric Jimmy?
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      07-28-2020, 02:36 AM   #40
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Now BMW with this news, put your money where your mouth is asap, and start working harder then ever before to become an attractive EV alternative.

Ill be ordering the I4 for my self later when it is available the I4 will be the perfect car for me and my gf being able to drive to our summer home that is 360 km away from home in one charge will be the closing shot for me to ever even considering another car then ev's again.

My GF drives an KIA hybrid today perfect for her work and daily commute even during the winter.

And i drive an i3 i would wish to be able to drive all the way to our summer place with the i3 but it is just not feasible, although there is some charging points along our route but the biggest issue is you don't know if they will be taken when needing to charge and that is the most off putting having to need to wait for others to charge up witch would make the trip take instead of 4 hours by car it would go up to at least 5,5 or 6 hours for the same trip and that is what i don't have time with, so when going to our summer home we take hers KIA just because it is more comfortable being able to drive all the way down. And sens it performs better on the Highway then the boxiness of the I3 it aint the most aerodynamic car out there so it is fighting against it self on the Highway. But in the city where i mostly commute my self i be damnd if the I3 aint the best city car out there. The turning ratio the easy way of slipping past traffic and being able to cram in to tight places with it, it is sure making city commute easier if anything.
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      07-28-2020, 03:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by tuffode View Post
It's all fine I guess, but they shouldn't still be advertising their cars as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" if they are going to continue to keep releasing cars with the same dreary personalities.
I thought they switched to "Sheer Driving Pleasure"?
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      07-28-2020, 03:45 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
"I honestly think if BMW gave the 3-series Merino leather and nicer materials and multi-contour seats (US doesn't get this sadly) a lot of 5-series owners would switch. The new 3 is also extremely close in interior dimensions to the 5 despite being a "compact" car. Interior materials and a V8 are the only things holding it back from capturing the 5er's market."

I completely agree. I only changed from a 3 series to a 5 series for those reasons. I don't expect BMW to give me the better leather, etc. for free; I was and am willing to pay for it. But the company doesn't give us the choice.
"The company" being BMWNA right? Because BMW does offer Merino leather for the 3 series in other markets. I'm not sure the mothership has a say/can dictate what BMWNA offers? Maybe Merino leather is not available at the Mexico plant (yet)?
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      07-28-2020, 08:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Full Electric cars by today's standards definitely need to have 225-300+ miles depending on the battery chosen

Hybrids are great second vehicles... However they are more expensive than their gas counterpart and are far more complex and without a doubt need more than 20 miles of range to be a good value proposition

Were you mostly driving on Electric Jimmy?
when I drove that 5er I was yea. but then again I personally live in a super small town (Solvang, CA) so for me it works great.

225-300 that would be awesome, I would prob only charge once a month lol
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      07-28-2020, 09:03 AM   #44
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If BMW converted their entire lineup to EV today I certainly agree their status as independent manufacturer would be in danger as they would be catering to an extremely small minority of buyers.
But that's not what he was suggesting.

He specifically described concern about BMW's continued use of ICE platforms for underpinning EVs rather than developing an EV-only vehicle architecture to supplement the existing CLAR and FAAR platforms. The latter strategy would allow ICE vehicle production to continue just as it has while new EVs could be optimized around the advantages that the use of an electric drivetrain brings to vehicle design.

Quote:
It's not a race to totally convert to EV as automakers are going to have to straddle the line between being able to sell cars today as well as tomorrow.
Exactly that, yes. Hence why you rightfully see automakers continue to develop great ICE products. However, many of them such as Benz, VAG, GM, and Ford already have EV vehicle architectures ready with multiple products coming starting this year.

It's true that we don't know yet how these products will perform in the marketplace, nor do we know how they will measure up against Tesla's vehicles. But we do know that they have strong potential to offer better packaging and more features than would have been possible if they were built on traditional platforms. Such traits could be a major differentiator and result in BMW's products struggling to gain acceptance. There is every reason to have doubts about BMW's strategy. We have even heard rumor that there is a contingent within the company who holds these same concerns.
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