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      07-28-2020, 10:55 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by GOLFFRR View Post
when I drove that 5er I was yea. but then again I personally live in a super small town (Solvang, CA) so for me it works great.

225-300 that would be awesome, I would prob only charge once a month lol
Best part about an electric car it's like a golf cart

You can leave it on w/ the AC blowing cold so when you return to the the car you've got a nice situation
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      07-28-2020, 11:24 AM   #46
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PHEV range is key

I'm on my third PHEV and had an i3. My 2020 530e has an EV range of 22 mi and it satisfies 80% of my daily use. The EV range of the Euro-spec X5 45e is supposed to be around 40 miles and that range would do 100 % of my non-interstate trips. So, it would be the same as owning an EV, so long as I can do daily charging. I also suspect that the extra weight of the ICE drivetrain is the same, or less, than the extra weight of a 200+ mile battery.

My conclusion is that BMW's hybrid EV/PHEV/ICE platform's sweet spot is a PHEV with 40-50 mile EV range. With that, one can have an EV for local use and an ICE for interstate use in a single vehicle and is optimum until there is an improvement in charging times and availability. I see a mid-term future for ICE BMW's and NO future for EV BMW's using an adapted ICE platform.

Last edited by ted99; 07-28-2020 at 11:25 AM.. Reason: sp
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      07-28-2020, 11:48 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by mbanck View Post
I thought they switched to "Sheer Driving Pleasure"?
In the US at least, the slogan is still "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
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      07-28-2020, 11:50 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
You can't be serious? EV's accounted for 2.6% of global sales in 2019. If BMW converted their entire lineup to EV today I certainly agree their status as independent manufacturer would be in danger as they would be catering to an extremely small minority of buyers. It's not a race to totally convert to EV as automakers are going to have to straddle the line between being able to sell cars today as well as tomorrow. Forums are full of emotional posters which is why we see a lot of posts like above but we are the minority as the masses who look at automobiles strictly as transportation don't really care either way what they drive and will simply purchase the cheapest vehicle that fills their needs. If I was a betting man BMW will probably be one of the last manufacturers standing as there are many manufacturers in much more precarious situations such as Chrysler, GM, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, any British automaker, etc. I would expect some of them will not be around next decade but I wouldn't worry too much about BMW as they will be fine. The fact that BMW missed the boat for you means absolutely nothing in the big picture.
IMO, and many will differ, the not too distant future will have educated people regarding driving an ICE car in an urban area to be the same as cigarette smoking. There are still lots of profitable cigarette manufacturers with customers just as there will be lots of car buffs with ICE autos. But, there will be a social price paid by users, once one leaves the realm of those on an hourly wage. I remember when almost everyone smoked. Now, it's something done away from the company of others.
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      07-28-2020, 01:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by tuffode View Post
In the US at least, the slogan is still "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
Credit Bob Lutz for coming up with the "Ultimate Drving Machine" slogan in the 1970s for then very young European car maker entry in the United States: BMW
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      07-28-2020, 04:56 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ted99 View Post
IMO, and many will differ, the not too distant future will have educated people regarding driving an ICE car in an urban area to be the same as cigarette smoking. There are still lots of profitable cigarette manufacturers with customers just as there will be lots of car buffs with ICE autos. But, there will be a social price paid by users, once one leaves the realm of those on an hourly wage. I remember when almost everyone smoked. Now, it's something done away from the company of others.
Maybe - maybe not. In Ohio, you get to pay $200 more in a taxes a year if you drive an EV. Not exactly a great incentive to switch. If I got a Tesla Model S, my insurance would also go up $300 over my BMW 5 Series and I would have to buy a Tesla wall charger and have installed, which is probably about another $750 to $1000. Switching costs are high when going to EV and not a great return when gas is so cheap.
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      07-29-2020, 03:26 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffode View Post
In the US at least, the slogan is still "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
Credit Bob Lutz for coming up with the "Ultimate Drving Machine" slogan in the 1970s for then very young European car maker entry in the United States: BMW
Bless his heart

Bob needs to retire

He's become a rambling idiot
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      07-29-2020, 07:01 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffode View Post
In the US at least, the slogan is still "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
Credit Bob Lutz for coming up with the "Ultimate Drving Machine" slogan in the 1970s for then very young European car maker entry in the United States: BMW
Bless his heart

Bob needs to retire

He's become a rambling idiot
Hmmm, Lutz retired from GM 10 years ago and he currently heads his own consulting firm.

Some interesting tid bits about him during his tenure at BMW in the early 1970s


https://www.bmwblog.com/2016/03/06/b...iving-machine/
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      07-30-2020, 04:51 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted99 View Post
Missed the boat for me. I would have bought any of these at the start of the year, but none available (I had a 2014 i3 for 3 years), so I bought the 2020 530e. I'll be trading it in 2022 or 2023 but it won't be for any of these EV's on a modified ICE platform. It will be a dedicated EV on a skateboard platform (yes, the i-Next is this, but it's bigger than I want for my in-town use if it's the rumored size of the X5). I think BMW is too late with these combo ICE/PHEV/EV platforms. Their moment was last year to 2021. Rumor is that M-B is going to discontinue their reworked GLC to EQC EV after 2021 for a dedicated EV platform EQC. There is speculation that M-B now considers the combo platform to have been a mistake...
Non-engineer here; how exactly are the combo platforms compromised, when configured pure electric, compared to a dedicated BEV platform? Is it a weight or weight distribution penalty, inferior utilization of the front bay or other respects. Thanks.
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      07-30-2020, 11:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by hector View Post
Non-engineer here; how exactly are the combo platforms compromised, when configured pure electric, compared to a dedicated BEV platform? Is it a weight or weight distribution penalty, inferior utilization of the front bay or other respects. Thanks.
Engineer here;the difference is weight and space utilization compared to an EV-specific skateboard platform and consequently, appearance. Note that the most efficient (spacewise) skateboard platforms have a shorter distance between the front axle and the passenger compartment and a larger passenger compartment than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Wheelbase for a given overall length also is greater.

I do not have any solid data for a lower weight. But, I suspect that once data comes out for direct comparison of ICE-adapted platforms vs. skateboard platforms it will be evident. Difficulty is finding apples to compare to apples. For instance: 1) what do we compare the iX3 to--Model Y or the upcoming Audi Q4 e-Tron?. 2) Do we compare the EV 3-series to the Polestar Model 2 or the Model 3? 3) Do we compare the ICE-adapted 5-series to the upcoming single-motor Porsche Taycan? It looks like the Taycan is smaller than the 5-series, but the interior is close to the same size. 4) The Jaguar i-Pace looks like a reasonable comparison to the X2, which uses the X1 (and Mini Countryman) platform. 5) If the upcoming i-next is indeed X5 size, we will have a good space utilization comparison. If M-B does discontinue the ICE-adapted EQC platform to an all-new skateboard platform for a new EQC in 2022 we might have a good basis for comparison of both weight and space utilization.

It's 2022 when we will start having a variety of "real" EV's (apart from Tesla) to look to for comparison to BMW's ICE-adapted platforms. Plus, we will be able to stay within price categories. A Jag i-Pace will surely cost more than an EV X1 and an EV 5-series will probably cost less than a single-motor Porsche Taycan. My thesis is that BMW's strategy of going with ICE-adapted EV's will be tested starting in 2022. Perhaps it will turn out to be the best mid-term strategy. They will be able to sell their bread and butter ICE cars and offer EV's that look like "normal" cars giving them time to come up with state of the art pure EV's. IMO the average car buyer will look at two objective things when EV shopping: range and space. How will BMW's ICE-adapted platforms come out in that comparison? The subjective things like appearance will also play a role but it's a guessing game as to whether preferences will go to "EV-looking" vehicles or "conventional-looking" vehicles. I think the first adopters strongly preferred their EV to look like an EV for social differentiating purposes. Will Joe or Betty "everyperson" feel the same? IMO, the long-term future is EV's and the question BMW has dealt with is when does that long-term arrive and how do they get there.

Last edited by ted99; 07-30-2020 at 11:23 AM..
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      07-30-2020, 06:03 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted99 View Post
Engineer here;the difference is weight and space utilization compared to an EV-specific skateboard platform and consequently, appearance. Note that the most efficient (spacewise) skateboard platforms have a shorter distance between the front axle and the passenger compartment and a larger passenger compartment than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Wheelbase for a given overall length also is greater.

I do not have any solid data for a lower weight. But, I suspect that once data comes out for direct comparison of ICE-adapted platforms vs. skateboard platforms it will be evident. Difficulty is finding apples to compare to apples. For instance: 1) what do we compare the iX3 to--Model Y or the upcoming Audi Q4 e-Tron?. 2) Do we compare the EV 3-series to the Polestar Model 2 or the Model 3? 3) Do we compare the ICE-adapted 5-series to the upcoming single-motor Porsche Taycan? It looks like the Taycan is smaller than the 5-series, but the interior is close to the same size. 4) The Jaguar i-Pace looks like a reasonable comparison to the X2, which uses the X1 (and Mini Countryman) platform. 5) If the upcoming i-next is indeed X5 size, we will have a good space utilization comparison. If M-B does discontinue the ICE-adapted EQC platform to an all-new skateboard platform for a new EQC in 2022 we might have a good basis for comparison of both weight and space utilization.

It's 2022 when we will start having a variety of "real" EV's (apart from Tesla) to look to for comparison to BMW's ICE-adapted platforms. Plus, we will be able to stay within price categories. A Jag i-Pace will surely cost more than an EV X1 and an EV 5-series will probably cost less than a single-motor Porsche Taycan. My thesis is that BMW's strategy of going with ICE-adapted EV's will be tested starting in 2022. Perhaps it will turn out to be the best mid-term strategy. They will be able to sell their bread and butter ICE cars and offer EV's that look like "normal" cars giving them time to come up with state of the art pure EV's. IMO the average car buyer will look at two objective things when EV shopping: range and space. How will BMW's ICE-adapted platforms come out in that comparison? The subjective things like appearance will also play a role but it's a guessing game as to whether preferences will go to "EV-looking" vehicles or "conventional-looking" vehicles. I think the first adopters strongly preferred their EV to look like an EV for social differentiating purposes. Will Joe or Betty "everyperson" feel the same? IMO, the long-term future is EV's and the question BMW has dealt with is when does that long-term arrive and how do they get there.
Thanks! Very informative. Ties into your previous comment that the "sweet spot" for the combo platform is for PHVs. One step closer to being an engineer.
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      07-31-2020, 01:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Bless his heart

Bob needs to retire

He's become a rambling idiot
Anybody associated with General Motors or Detroit for that matter has little credibility. Dude is basically a GM lifer, just look at the products that came out of the company during his time there. Nothing else needs to be said. Just another member of the old boys club.
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      07-31-2020, 08:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Bless his heart

Bob needs to retire

He's become a rambling idiot
Anybody associated with General Motors or Detroit for that matter has little credibility. Dude is basically a GM lifer, just look at the products that came out of the company during his time there. Nothing else needs to be said. Just another member of the old boys club.
Hate on him all you want, he was a pivotal player during his time at BMW and basically he laid the foundation for the original and successful 3 Series.

Oh yes the general. Can't fault him for everything that happened at that messed up operation but at least I'll give him credit for his departure 'gift' , Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky a genuine effort to bring something semi worthwhile from that pile automaker.
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      07-31-2020, 01:42 PM   #58
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Hate on him all you want, he was a pivotal player during his time at BMW and basically he laid the foundation for the original and successful 3 Series.

Oh yes the general. Can't fault him for everything that happened at that messed up operation but at least I'll give him credit for his departure 'gift' , Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky a genuine effort to bring something semi worthwhile from that pile automaker.
Yeah I'll give credit where it's due, but that was nearly 50 yrs ago. It's like Cowboy fans raving about the 90s despite being mediocre ever since.
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      07-31-2020, 03:12 PM   #59
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Maybe - maybe not. In Ohio, you get to pay $200 more in a taxes a year if you drive an EV. Not exactly a great incentive to switch. If I got a Tesla Model S, my insurance would also go up $300 over my BMW 5 Series and I would have to buy a Tesla wall charger and have installed, which is probably about another $750 to $1000. Switching costs are high when going to EV and not a great return when gas is so cheap.
The tax shift isn't exactly easy to line up pro or con. Thankfully we don't have that issue in PA yet, but you're skipping gas tax on the EV so there may still be savings to be had even with the flat rate tax (but it will vary based on miles driven I'm sure).

You're able to get 30% of the cost to install the EV charger back from the Feds and (if not a Tesla) up to $7500 kicked back from the purchase of the EV. No idea of state incentives exist.

When I purchased my 530e it was actually a pretty decent discount since the 530e was priced on par with the 530i (no longer the case for MY2021). And now I have a 60A 240V charger installed to act as a launch pad for me going to a full BEV whenever I want do.
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      08-01-2020, 07:15 AM   #60
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The tax shift isn't exactly easy to line up pro or con. Thankfully we don't have that issue in PA yet, but you're skipping gas tax on the EV so there may still be savings to be had even with the flat rate tax (but it will vary based on miles driven I'm sure).

You're able to get 30% of the cost to install the EV charger back from the Feds and (if not a Tesla) up to $7500 kicked back from the purchase of the EV. No idea of state incentives exist.

When I purchased my 530e it was actually a pretty decent discount since the 530e was priced on par with the 530i (no longer the case for MY2021). And now I have a 60A 240V charger installed to act as a launch pad for me going to a full BEV whenever I want do.
I would only get a Tesla EV right now, until BMW has their pure EV’s come out with hopefully Tesla Model S range. So, at least in Ohio there are no incentives for above that I am aware of or from the Fed.
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      08-02-2020, 08:40 AM   #61
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Quote:
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Hate on him all you want, he was a pivotal player during his time at BMW and basically he laid the foundation for the original and successful 3 Series.

Oh yes the general. Can't fault him for everything that happened at that messed up operation but at least I'll give him credit for his departure 'gift' , Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky a genuine effort to bring something semi worthwhile from that pile automaker.
Yeah I'll give credit where it's due, but that was nearly 50 yrs ago. It's like Cowboy fans raving about the 90s despite being mediocre ever since.
If you want to condemn Lutz for his perceived past sins during his time GM that is your prerogative.

He was no saint, that is for sure:


https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...ped-destroy-g/
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      08-02-2020, 01:11 PM   #62
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If you want to condemn Lutz for his perceived past sins during his time GM that is your prerogative.

He was no saint, that is for sure:


https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...ped-destroy-g/
Good read.
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      08-02-2020, 08:54 PM   #63
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If the 5 Series can have Tesla Model S range, then that would be awesome. I like to lease and BMW leases are so much better than Tesla leases.
I don't think EV leases will be that great since there's less revenue to be made on after sales parts.
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