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      03-14-2019, 03:30 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathObeaN View Post
They could have gone a little bit further to confuse people more by explaining that a heavier car will actually provide better grip than a lighter car (in general) due to the weight forcing the tyres into the ground. That, plus weight distribution - having the weight forced into the tyres that are providing drive. Another curveball is that even with a 4WD system, the laws of momentum mean that as the car lifts its nose, more weight/power needs to be sent to the rear so the magic '50/50' weight distribution doesn't necessarily help either. Let's face it, this video could have gone on forever. I feel like the guy from engineering explained should do a follow-up
I believe the 50/50 weight distro is strictly a handling thing, not an acceleration thing.
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      03-14-2019, 03:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Joe240 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathObeaN View Post
They could have gone a little bit further to confuse people more by explaining that a heavier car will actually provide better grip than a lighter car (in general) due to the weight forcing the tyres into the ground. That, plus weight distribution - having the weight forced into the tyres that are providing drive. Another curveball is that even with a 4WD system, the laws of momentum mean that as the car lifts its nose, more weight/power needs to be sent to the rear so the magic '50/50' weight distribution doesn't necessarily help either. Let's face it, this video could have gone on forever. I feel like the guy from engineering explained should do a follow-up
I believe the 50/50 weight distro is strictly a handling thing, not an acceleration thing.
It is there to benefit handling but what I'm saying is that when a car accelerates quickly, the nose of the car lifts, as do the front wheels. Now, if the car is front wheel drive, 50/50 weight distribution doesn't help. If the car is rear wheel, it doesn't necessarily help either. If the car is front wheel, more weight should be on the front of the car to help keep those wheels planted into the ground. Vice versa for rear wheel. 4WD is a complicated issue depending on how much drive is sent to each wheel but you get the idea.

You'll notice with some drag race videos that front wheel drive cars will spin the tyres as it launches. Unfortunately one of the ways to combat this is to push more weight to the front of the car which then negatively impacts handling and makes the car heavier.

Porsche on the other hand push their engine (and weight) to the back of the car. This helps keep the rear wheels stuck to the tarmac and also improves handling a little bit, partly due to the laws of momentum. But, for handling, the holy grail is mid-engine placement and 50/50 weight distribution.

Basically, all I'm saying is that in the interest of 0-60, the car's weight should be planted over the wheels driving the car.
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      03-14-2019, 08:07 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Yes The ludicrous plus mode requires a battery warm up if the battery isn't already warm from a short drive. On that mode the 4900lb model s does 0-60 in 2.4 sec or less if you calculate using roll out like the car mags do.

No it doesn't severely shrink the range, the youngster who runs the Tesla racing channel on YouTube has many videos of back to back runs on the same charge on the street and track, races are short so it doesn't consume that much power.

Let's not get crazy thinking it's silent like an elevator. There is plenty of sound, road, tires, wind and the whine of the electric motor which to some is enough. Sure there is no exhaust note, which is important and I love a great sounding exhaust like the next car guy but (1) has bmw really been impressing you with their turbo exhaust notes? And (2) if you do like bmws exhaust notes couldn't you just pipe it in with a speaker like bmw does?

As battery tech improves weight will be reduced and the electric sports cars will become even better at the track. Compared to the decades of r&d into the internal combustion engine battery r&d is in its infant stage, there is a lot more exciting things to come.

Back on topic, I think the Tesla and the gtr prove that traction can overcome weight for a solid 0-60. That's what's so exciting about the g80 m3, I'm expecting we'll see sub 3 sec 0-60s from it in short order.
There's more to the experience of an ICE (not specific to BMWs) powered car than wind, road and tire noise, which seem to be the extent of a Tesla's "experience". Do you not like the song associated with climbing RPMs? What about when you're rowing down the gears (by hand!) to slow the car down? You don't get that from the elevator on wheels.

You're right that battery tech is in its respective infancy. I would think gestation hasn't even occurred yet, when you compare it to the video below...I am glad the youngster on YouTube can run his washing machine for a few, short runs in a row. Sort of pales in comparison, eh?

I doubt I will be alive when a battery powered appliance can produce something like this:

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      03-14-2019, 11:54 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Hence the reason why I keep my F10 M5. Hydraulic steering, plus no AWD system to kill the feeling.

Although I will say I still like the new 992 despite EPS and all turbo motors on those cars.
I haven't driven a 992, but, assuming it continues the trajectory of the 991, I'm just not interested. All of the automakers are replacing feel with luxury and convenience in every new iteration, and the newer cars are faster, but less fun. My 996 and 987 Cayman practically felt like go-karts compared to the newer cars, and that's a good thing IMO.
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      03-14-2019, 11:57 AM   #49
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Now with so much horse power, the limitation going 0-60 is tire grip. Let's say if you go 60mph and brake hard, then measure how much time it takes to go from 60-0, then that would be the limit of your car going 0-60.
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      03-14-2019, 12:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
Yeah, we all have a redline. For some, it will be the loss of the manual transmission. For me, the redline was when Porsche and BMW moved away from hydraulic steering. I don't even look at Porsches and BMWs from after 2012'ish.
Is electric steering that bad? I heard the new ones are bad but the electric steering on the M cars are not bad.
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      03-14-2019, 12:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
New Tesla roadster

0-60 in 1.9 seconds

8.8 1/4 mile

250mph top speed

620 mile range

$200k

I can't wait to see that thing shame hypercars and even megacars for a supercar price
Yeah but you're missing the most important spec.

Tesla exhaust noise = Nothing . So Tesla is a loss in my book. I can't fathom a spots car with no exhaust note.
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      03-14-2019, 01:04 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Even in Germany.What you're gonna do with 160mph+ speed? Even in best conditions you can only reach those speeds just for seconds.
FAKE NEWS! You can drive it for miles depends on the traffic and time. I should know better after living there for 31 years....I guess
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      03-14-2019, 01:07 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by BLU135i View Post
Except that cars manufactured in Germany ie BMW Mercedes and Porsche are speed limited to 250 kmph or just over 155 mph so what does it matter? Couple that with the fact that there are very few "unlimited" sections of the autobahn left and groups within Germany is actually proposing limiting those areas as well. Yeah top speed dosen't matter.
You can get the drivers package which is 305KM/H

According to the German AAA (ADAC): 30% Autobahn have a speed limit, additional 17% have a part-time speed limit, which is 47% in total. 53% of German Autobahn are without speed limit which is around 4000miles!

Last edited by LOW4LYF; 03-14-2019 at 01:13 PM.
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      03-14-2019, 02:10 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal View Post
Is electric steering that bad? I heard the new ones are bad but the electric steering on the M cars are not bad.
Porsche's is still the best, and it's still not worth it to me. Combine that with the cars getting bigger and more tech-laden and luxurious, and I'm just not interested.
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      03-15-2019, 01:01 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I worked with some guys that had the Model S in my past - there's no doubt those cars were really fast. But it was kind of like being in an elevator. Do you get enjoyment out of a fast elevator ride? It is hard to tell that you've moved a great distance quickly because there's no real sound...or anything to be honest. It's just not as...theatric? Involving? Fun? At least to me anyway.

Mr. Musk has even described the automobile of the future as mobile washing machines...aka, appliances. No thank you - I won't be buying one, ever.
Agreed. I test drove the P90 once. It was a good 30 minute drive on some fun and twisty back roads. The sales guy said "hm, can you slow down". I looked at the speedo and was like "crap, sorry bud". I had no idea it got so fast and so quick. Definitely not enough feedback. In my car, I know how fast I'm going by the sound of the engine. And that sound is glorious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
No it doesn't severely shrink the range, the youngster who runs the Tesla racing channel on YouTube has many videos of back to back runs on the same charge on the street and track, races are short so it doesn't consume that much power.

Let's not get crazy thinking it's silent like an elevator. There is plenty of sound, road, tires, wind and the whine of the electric motor which to some is enough. Sure there is no exhaust note, which is important and I love a great sounding exhaust like the next car guy but (1) has bmw really been impressing you with their turbo exhaust notes? And (2) if you do like bmws exhaust notes couldn't you just pipe it in with a speaker like bmw does?
Having a heavy foot in an EV causes the battery to drain much quicker. I believe the optimal driving speed is 60mph. Going higher impacts drive range dramatically. Yes that happens in a gasoline car (coughBugatticough), but refilling a gasoline car takes less than 5 minutes. Also, there is a reason you do not see Tesla's on the track - anywhere. The strain on the batteries kills it. Musk said he fixed that problem, but I have yet to see people taking their Tesla on the track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach550 View Post
whats with the dude tickling the paddle at 2:58?
Twitch finger for the next shift? Sometimes I do that when tracking, or on my game controller when playing a shooter game. It's to make sure the finger doesn't "fall asleep". Then again, i didn't see the video, so it's possible he was stroking it for some kind of pleasure?
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      03-15-2019, 01:16 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post

So two questions

1) Is the M3 limited in launch controls? I know they don't recommend doing it and the computer tracks how many times you did it (for reseale). I think porsche did it right and bmw did not
2) Why isn't launch control ALWAYS on...just the default? In a porsche
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      03-15-2019, 02:22 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M-Furby View Post
So two questions

1) Is the M3 limited in launch controls? I know they don't recommend doing it and the computer tracks how many times you did it (for reseale). I think porsche did it right and bmw did not
2) Why isn't launch control ALWAYS on...just the default? In a porsche
I'm not sure if the M3 is officially "limited" in the number of times you can launch it - but I am guessing there could be some risk of limp mode if you did this many times in a row? It would be interesting to see someone try it.

My 981 seemed to be bullet proof - I have a buddy who has had several 911s, and he thought the cars were super "over-engineered" in the context that they were made to take a true beating, and for many many miles. So I am not surprised this Turbo S was able to do 50+ launches in a row without so much of a hiccup....
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      03-15-2019, 02:56 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I'm not sure if the M3 is officially "limited" in the number of times you can launch it - but I am guessing there could be some risk of limp mode if you did this many times in a row? It would be interesting to see someone try it.

My 981 seemed to be bullet proof - I have a buddy who has had several 911s, and he thought the cars were super "over-engineered" in the context that they were made to take a true beating, and for many many miles. So I am not surprised this Turbo S was able to do 50+ launches in a row without so much of a hiccup....
Ya know, Porsche is not in my top 5 list of cars. Don't get me wrong, I understand and appreciate the Porsche. Some of the things annoy me (the looks, the lack of heads up display, and the complete and utter resistance to get new tech until way beyond the competition) BUT, hearing that these cars are rock solid - even while abused - is awesome.
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      03-15-2019, 06:59 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
The real question is when will the 0-60 time be "saturated".

As in when will enough is enough!?
When rocketman Elon Musk says so.
New Tesla roadster

0-60 in 1.9 seconds

8.8 1/4 mile

250mph top speed

620 mile range

$200k

I can't wait to see that thing shame hypercars and even megacars for a supercar price
Really? I have no interest in electric cars and don't really much care if they "beat" any of these.

There is no character to these electric vehicles, no soul. To me, part of the sports-car or any vehicle experience, is the sound of the engine and roar of the exhaust note along with the little quirks that are sometimes unique to that vehicle or model. If you take that away I feel like it also takes away the joy and connectedness that goes along with driving. Like taking away manual transmissions.

Yes, electric vehicles are fast but I don't think they appeal to all the senses like a combustion engine. I would be more likely to accept a hybrid sports car then full electric which to me, is the best of both worlds.
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      03-16-2019, 03:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Yes The ludicrous plus mode requires a battery warm up if the battery isn't already warm from a short drive. On that mode the 4900lb model s does 0-60 in 2.4 sec or less if you calculate using roll out like the car mags do.

No it doesn't severely shrink the range, the youngster who runs the Tesla racing channel on YouTube has many videos of back to back runs on the same charge on the street and track, races are short so it doesn't consume that much power.

Let's not get crazy thinking it's silent like an elevator. There is plenty of sound, road, tires, wind and the whine of the electric motor which to some is enough. Sure there is no exhaust note, which is important and I love a great sounding exhaust like the next car guy but (1) has bmw really been impressing you with their turbo exhaust notes? And (2) if you do like bmws exhaust notes couldn't you just pipe it in with a speaker like bmw does?

As battery tech improves weight will be reduced and the electric sports cars will become even better at the track. Compared to the decades of r&d into the internal combustion engine battery r&d is in its infant stage, there is a lot more exciting things to come.

Back on topic, I think the Tesla and the gtr prove that traction can overcome weight for a solid 0-60. That's what's so exciting about the g80 m3, I'm expecting we'll see sub 3 sec 0-60s from it in short order.
There's more to the experience of an ICE (not specific to BMWs) powered car than wind, road and tire noise, which seem to be the extent of a Tesla's "experience". Do you not like the song associated with climbing RPMs? What about when you're rowing down the gears (by hand!) to slow the car down? You don't get that from the elevator on wheels.

You're right that battery tech is in its respective infancy. I would think gestation hasn't even occurred yet, when you compare it to the video below...I am glad the youngster on YouTube can run his washing machine for a few, short runs in a row. Sort of pales in comparison, eh?

I doubt I will be alive when a battery powered appliance can produce something like this:

I actually said I like exhaust noise but I'm partial to a high pitched unrestricted bmw e60 m5 type sound as opposed to the eh turbo exhaust sound that countless people on this very forum have bitched and complained about since the f80 m3 launch.
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      03-16-2019, 03:54 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacoby521 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
The real question is when will the 0-60 time be "saturated".

As in when will enough is enough!?
When rocketman Elon Musk says so.
New Tesla roadster

0-60 in 1.9 seconds

8.8 1/4 mile

250mph top speed

620 mile range

$200k

I can't wait to see that thing shame hypercars and even megacars for a supercar price
Really? I have no interest in electric cars and don't really much care if they "beat" any of these.

There is no character to these electric vehicles, no soul. To me, part of the sports-car or any vehicle experience, is the sound of the engine and roar of the exhaust note along with the little quirks that are sometimes unique to that vehicle or model. If you take that away I feel like it also takes away the joy and connectedness that goes along with driving. Like taking away manual transmissions.

Yes, electric vehicles are fast but I don't think they appeal to all the senses like a combustion engine. I would be more likely to accept a hybrid sports car then full electric which to me, is the best of both worlds.
I would agree with hybrid sports cars being very relevant today.
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      03-16-2019, 03:59 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duder13 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Hence the reason why I keep my F10 M5. Hydraulic steering, plus no AWD system to kill the feeling.

Although I will say I still like the new 992 despite EPS and all turbo motors on those cars.
I haven't driven a 992, but, assuming it continues the trajectory of the 991, I'm just not interested. All of the automakers are replacing feel with luxury and convenience in every new iteration, and the newer cars are faster, but less fun. My 996 and 987 Cayman practically felt like go-karts compared to the newer cars, and that's a good thing IMO.
The 992's pdk has all new more aggressive ratios plus room for an electric motor for the future hybrid 992.

The 992 c2s can already do 0-100mph in 10sec that's damn quick l, as quick as older 911 turbo models.
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      03-16-2019, 05:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacoby521 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
The real question is when will the 0-60 time be "saturated".

As in when will enough is enough!?
When rocketman Elon Musk says so.
New Tesla roadster

0-60 in 1.9 seconds

8.8 1/4 mile

250mph top speed

620 mile range

$200k

I can't wait to see that thing shame hypercars and even megacars for a supercar price
Really? I have no interest in electric cars and don't really much care if they "beat" any of these.

There is no character to these electric vehicles, no soul. To me, part of the sports-car or any vehicle experience, is the sound of the engine and roar of the exhaust note along with the little quirks that are sometimes unique to that vehicle or model. If you take that away I feel like it also takes away the joy and connectedness that goes along with driving. Like taking away manual transmissions.

Yes, electric vehicles are fast but I don't think they appeal to all the senses like a combustion engine. I would be more likely to accept a hybrid sports car then full electric which to me, is the best of both worlds.
I would agree with hybrid sports cars being very relevant today.
And it would be the only way I would even consider driving a "semi-electric" vehicle. No way yet that I am even willing to consider electric for any vehicle and especially not a Tesla. My taste and opinion in cars was probably influenced a little too much by old BBC Top Gear and Jeremy Clarkson...and unfortunately, that's not changing any time soon.
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      03-16-2019, 08:42 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotSoss View Post
Someone please tell me that I’m wrong, and that BMW didn’t screw it up in the video. (In reference to the power to weight ratio): “the smaller the ratio, the faster the car will be”. Ummm.. so the lower the power, and the greater the weight, the car will be faster?? What kind of SUPERMAGIC does BMW wield? 😂😂😂 Either I heard the video wrong, or BMW didn’t really put much oversight into this video.
I think they meant horses to pounds/kgs.

For example, a car with 1HP/3KG will have a faster 0-60 than a car with 1HP/5KG (all other factors being equal).
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      03-17-2019, 08:29 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal View Post
Is electric steering that bad? I heard the new ones are bad but the electric steering on the M cars are not bad.
Well - I own an e30 with hydraulic steering and an e92 with electric steering and have to admit that it's not that bad. The e92 still feels like a 3 series, and 95% of the time the weighting of the steering is fine. Where I find it annoying is on high speed sweeping bends where the steering doesn't load up like you'd expect so it's hard to tell where the limit is. Mind you, it's not like I'm driving at 10/10ths on public roads so it's really not that much of a problem, just not quite as fun as it could be.

Anyone seen the video where the e30 wagon with a warmed over atmo 2.7L M20 beats a 335i around a track? The lighter car is often better off once there are turns involved
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      03-17-2019, 12:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacoby521 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacoby521 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowser330 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Too__Hu///Mble View Post
The real question is when will the 0-60 time be "saturated".

As in when will enough is enough!?
When rocketman Elon Musk says so.
New Tesla roadster

0-60 in 1.9 seconds

8.8 1/4 mile

250mph top speed

620 mile range

$200k

I can't wait to see that thing shame hypercars and even megacars for a supercar price
Really? I have no interest in electric cars and don't really much care if they "beat" any of these.

There is no character to these electric vehicles, no soul. To me, part of the sports-car or any vehicle experience, is the sound of the engine and roar of the exhaust note along with the little quirks that are sometimes unique to that vehicle or model. If you take that away I feel like it also takes away the joy and connectedness that goes along with driving. Like taking away manual transmissions.

Yes, electric vehicles are fast but I don't think they appeal to all the senses like a combustion engine. I would be more likely to accept a hybrid sports car then full electric which to me, is the best of both worlds.
I would agree with hybrid sports cars being very relevant today.
And it would be the only way I would even consider driving a "semi-electric" vehicle. No way yet that I am even willing to consider electric for any vehicle and especially not a Tesla. My taste and opinion in cars was influenced by old BBC Top Gear and Jeremy Clarkson...and that's not changing.
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