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Technical Topics Suspension / Chassis / Brakes Suspension debate - adaptive or not?

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      07-02-2019, 04:01 AM   #45
mlcgd21
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I don't understand why people don't always tick the box for the adaptive suspension, it's probably the best priced BMW option, at less than 1% of the car, and greatly improves.

The people who don't choose this option almost always regret the decision (me included).
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      07-02-2019, 06:20 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlcgd21 View Post
I don't understand why people don't always tick the box for the adaptive suspension, it's probably the best priced BMW option, at less than 1% of the car, and greatly improves.

The people who don't choose this option almost always regret the decision (me included).
Surprises me as well, considering many don't drive on surfaces that can really cope well with running a passive sport suspension.

There are a few reasons I can think of.

Many feel they should have a very firm suspension, to be 'sporty'. Passive "M-sport suspension must be the best", thinking. We know that is flawed thinking, as often suspensions can be too firm to give the best grip on many roads. Tire grip is key to any sporty driving. Tires often get the blame when the suspension is more the issue. Try and convince someone a softer suspension can be the faster drive!

Some don't want an adaptive setup. Feel that a passive system is more predictable, which it can be, to a certain degree.

It's an option that doesn't show, something like big rims show. Wheel upgrades are often the preferred spend, even though they cost more and can totally spoil the ride quality on anything less than the smoothest surfaces. Ride quality is not a priority.

Other users intend to modify. Easier to do, starting with a passive setup.

Still other users don't fully grasp the way adaptive works and how it can widen the working envelope, particularly on poor surfaces, which ever mode you are using.

Some fear the costs, long term. Yes that is a valid concern, more to go wrong, or if the failures are similar to a passive system, will cost more to fix.

Probably a few other reasons, we could add.
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      07-02-2019, 07:26 AM   #47
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The only M340i I test drove had the passive suspension and I still ordered the adaptive dampers.

I will admit, the new standard suspension was very impressive and rode smoothly/handled well. To be honest, the comfort level was more than sufficient but I still felt a bit too much body movement, and I think the "Sport Plus" suspension mode with the adaptive dampers will help solve that problem.

Well my car is on the boat, so at this point I hope I made the right choice, hah!
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      07-02-2019, 08:18 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlcgd21 View Post
I don't understand why people don't always tick the box for the adaptive suspension, it's probably the best priced BMW option, at less than 1% of the car, and greatly improves.

The people who don't choose this option almost always regret the decision (me included).
Pretty simple for me, pure ignorance. I didn't really understand what adaptive suspension was all about. I thought that there were different settings on the standard suspension but that adaptive was just a setting that adapts to your driving on the fly which I thought explained why it was only $700. Had I known more when I ordered I probably would have ordered adaptive just because it was only $700 for full adjustability of the suspension. I will say that on all of my cars/SUVs that have/had adjustable suspension, I always just keep it in comfort so maybe this will make me appreciate a sporty suspension.

I test drove two M340's and both had passive suspension and I actually thought it drove great. I am still waiting on my order which is supposedly in the U.S. now but if I had the option to order again, I would check that box.
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      07-02-2019, 08:32 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlcgd21 View Post
I don't understand why people don't always tick the box for the adaptive suspension, it's probably the best priced BMW option, at less than 1% of the car, and greatly improves.

The people who don't choose this option almost always regret the decision (me included).
Improves performance - not

That is what the debate is all about. On M3 forums ( with people who drive track and really use the suspension) this topic was debated as well.

Consensus is - adaptive does not improve performance. quite the opposite - it takes away from the performance and replaces it with comfort.
So some people make conscious decision - not to order it. Some - who track more often even pay to remove it and replace with coil overs or go back to standard BMW set up.
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      07-02-2019, 09:20 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Ilyam5 View Post
Improves performance - not

That is what the debate is all about. On M3 forums ( with people who drive track and really use the suspension) this topic was debated as well.

Consensus is - adaptive does not improve performance. quite the opposite - it takes away from the performance and replaces it with comfort.
So some people make conscious decision - not to order it. Some - who track more often even pay to remove it and replace with coil overs or go back to standard BMW set up.
How do we define improvement?

Isn't a bit of comfort "in a road car" what a lot of users are after. The ability to change the suspension characteristics to suit the need. Carrying passengers, road quality, daily drive choice, etc.

I fully understand some users want one setting, looking for what they term best performance and will compromise the comfort level. That doesn't mean 'improve' the chassis for some users. In fact it could mean the exact opposite, even unusable. Therefore adaptive is a definite improvement (maybe a compromise) compared to the standard passive Sport suspension for those users.

It is good there are now three suspensions to choose from, without even considering any aftermarket options.
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      07-02-2019, 09:39 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
How do we define improvement?

Isn't a bit of comfort "in a road car" what a lot of users are after. The ability to change the suspension characteristics to suit the need. Carrying passengers, road quality, daily drive choice, etc.

I fully understand some users want one setting, looking for what they term best performance and will compromise the comfort level. That doesn't mean 'improve' the chassis for some users. In fact it could mean the exact opposite, even unusable. Therefore adaptive is a definite improvement (maybe a compromise) compared to the standard passive Sport suspension for those users.

It is good there are now three suspensions to choose from, without even considering any aftermarket options.
You are absolutely correct - performance means different things to different people. That's what makes this debate interesting.

To me - the suspension performance in an M or M performance car - is ability to sustain road holding/ traction at the limit.

I tried several M 3/4 cars on the track with adaptive and passive suspensions.
Adaptive - is a comfort compromise and does not consistently hold the at the limit.
I found comfort to be - too leany/floaty. and in Sport/sport + it is skipping. - so mid corner bumps, apex curbs tend to upset the car and the rear steps out. So i left the car in comfort on the track preferring to deal with lean over skipping.

The regular M sport suspension does not exhibit this behavior. But at slow speeds in town on broken roads - it is more bumpy - i can live with that - some choose not to.
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      07-02-2019, 10:11 AM   #52
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I could understand the performance argument if we were talking about race cars or supercars who are driven a lot on track, but even Ferrari has the option of magnetic suspension, which is said to improve performance.

We use our cars on the road, where the pavement is far from perfect and surfaces are constantly changing, so these adaptive setups are by far the best option.

Try a Porsche with and without PASM (Porsche adaptive suspension), the ride is night and day difference, on the road the PASM is a must have option from my experience of driving 300 000 klms in recent 911s.

I ordered my Audi RS3 without magnetc ride because I thought I was a "performance oriented guy", because it would "handle better", and that I was too much of a Petrolhead for the adaptive suspensions. The truth is that I drove another RS3 with magnetic ride and it is miles better than mine in everything, makes it so much more usable, on the road it is also faster since it adapts to the bad surfaces and finds more grip than mine that is so stiff that cannot absorb bumps so it just jumps from side to side, also on motorway fast driving it is safer when the surface is not perfect, and gives more confidence. My opinion is that I ruined my car by not choosing it.

If you can afford the adaptive setup (here it costs only 600 euros, and the 3 series cost around 60.000 euros) in my opinion there is no reason not to choose it, it's one of the few "recent" car features that is actually very useful.
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      07-02-2019, 10:11 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyam5 View Post
You are absolutely correct - performance means different things to different people. That's what makes this debate interesting.

To me - the suspension performance in an M or M performance car - is ability to sustain road holding/ traction at the limit.

I tried several M 3/4 cars on the track with adaptive and passive suspensions.
Adaptive - is a comfort compromise and does not consistently hold the at the limit.
I found comfort to be - too leany/floaty. and in Sport/sport + it is skipping. - so mid corner bumps, apex curbs tend to upset the car and the rear steps out. So i left the car in comfort on the track preferring to deal with lean over skipping.

The regular M sport suspension does not exhibit this behavior. But at slow speeds in town on broken roads - it is more bumpy - i can live with that - some choose not to.
Your comments clearly illustrate the issues involved in suspension choice. Partly a subjective (individual) judgement and also that any suspension is a compromise, even the BMW adaptive systems.

I'm running the 5-series adaptive suspension which is a more advanced and better design than the 3/4 series. It has three base settings. I find the middle setting is the best compromise and if I only had one setting, it would be the one of choice. I do use the two other settings, the sport setting if I'm pressing on. But I wouldn't want it all the time, some roads it is totally unnecessary, plus I prefer a bit of comfort, particularly on long trips.

I had a passive suspension X1 for a couple of days last week. It was a reasonable compromise, but there were times I would have preferred to firm it up a bit, mainly due to roads I was using, once off a major trunk road. If I was in that market, adaptive would definitely be on my options list.
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      07-02-2019, 02:15 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlcgd21 View Post
I could understand the performance argument if we were talking about race cars or supercars who are driven a lot on track, but even Ferrari has the option of magnetic suspension, which is said to improve performance.

We use our cars on the road, where the pavement is far from perfect and surfaces are constantly changing, so these adaptive setups are by far the best option.
......
If you can afford the adaptive setup (here it costs only 600 euros, and the 3 series cost around 60.000 euros) in my opinion there is no reason not to choose it, it's one of the few "recent" car features that is actually very useful.
The magnetic system on the Ferrari is much more advanced than the system BMW is using. Ferrari is actually using the Magnetic system from GM that they use on the corvette, and some of the Cadillacs and camero. It's able to infinitely vary the suspension whereas the BMW system just has a valve and has 2 or 3 settings that it cycles between if in adaptive mode.

I'm not saying the BMW system is bad, I'm just saying its very different than the magnetic system.
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      07-05-2019, 03:25 PM   #55
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Are there people we have also an extra jump on a speed bump. When i drive slow on a bump sometimes we get an extra ‘jump’
M-sport with adaptive spring set. 330i.
I asked GGD garage to do a check
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      07-11-2019, 11:21 PM   #56
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I test drove the active and the passive suspension and went with the passive suspension because I prefer a sporty setup more often than not. It really comes down to preference. In my experience, it's only on really bumpy roads that are consistently bumpy and in the 35 to 55mph range will the passive suspension punish you. If you're going slow (below 35) you will bounce over bumps in a compliant manner and if you are going fast (over 55mph) you will float right over the bumps and not really feel them. So you need to consider where you live and what speeds you are driving.
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      07-12-2019, 12:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
I test drove the active and the passive suspension and went with the passive suspension because I prefer a sporty setup more often than not. It really comes down to preference. In my experience, it's only on really bumpy roads that are consistently bumpy and in the 35 to 55mph range will the passive suspension punish you. If you're going slow (below 35) you will bounce over bumps in a compliant manner and if you are going fast (over 55mph) you will float right over the bumps and not really feel them. So you need to consider where you live and what speeds you are driving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
I test drove the active and the passive suspension and went with the passive suspension because I prefer a sporty setup more often than not. It really comes down to preference. In my experience, it's only on really bumpy roads that are consistently bumpy and in the 35 to 55mph range will the passive suspension punish you. If you're going slow (below 35) you will bounce over bumps in a compliant manner and if you are going fast (over 55mph) you will float right over the bumps and not really feel them. So you need to consider where you live and what speeds you are driving.
So basically never drive 40mph and you'll be fine ?
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      07-12-2019, 12:18 AM   #58
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BMW designed a complete new set of dampers. Better than ever and more balanced than ever. So sporty and comfortable as it should be for a daily. People who buy the adaptive set dont get these new dampers and/or dont benefit from them.

Shouldnt that be a good reason not to buy the adaptive suspension?
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      07-12-2019, 07:09 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macboy View Post
BMW designed a complete new set of dampers. Better than ever and more balanced than ever. So sporty and comfortable as it should be for a daily. People who buy the adaptive set dont get these new dampers and/or dont benefit from them.

Shouldnt that be a good reason not to buy the adaptive suspension?
It is the new 'lift-related' dampers that some are finding a bit strange in some situations.

UK motoring press have made comments that there some situations where the damping is not ideal.

They may well be better than the previous generation, that won't be hard to improve on.

Adaptive still has its place, where users want to run both a comfort and sport biased chassis, across a wide range of road conditions and use.
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      07-12-2019, 07:18 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
I test drove the active and the passive suspension and went with the passive suspension because I prefer a sporty setup more often than not. It really comes down to preference. In my experience, it's only on really bumpy roads that are consistently bumpy and in the 35 to 55mph range will the passive suspension punish you. If you're going slow (below 35) you will bounce over bumps in a compliant manner and if you are going fast (over 55mph) you will float right over the bumps and not really feel them. So you need to consider where you live and what speeds you are driving.
Isn't that highlighting the speed range where many of us drive a high percentage of our miles?

Agree we need to consider our own particular driving situation. I know (for me) adaptive definitely improves my BMW in the more challenging conditions I drive day to day. I've spent time in another part of the UK, adaptive would not be so important, as the roads are much better and it's easier to live with a passive sport suspension.
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      07-12-2019, 08:03 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
It is the new 'lift-related' dampers that some are finding a bit strange in some situations.
Adaptive still has its place, where users want to run both a comfort and sport biased chassis, across a wide range of road conditions and use.
I agree ! But I heard the lift-related dampers are only there if you dont have the adaptive suspension.
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      07-12-2019, 08:28 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Macboy View Post
I agree ! But I heard the lift-related dampers are only there if you dont have the adaptive suspension.
I read it the same way, the lift-related design is for passive systems. The function widening the working envelope, similar to the selective frequency passive designs used by some of the competition.

Adaptive has the potential to be programmed to react in a similar way to the lift-related characteristics, if BMW choose to do so. Plus the added ability to have the different base switchable settings (Comfort/Sport), and an 'overlap' of both using the Adaptive mode setting.

I see it this way, we have two passive setups using the lift-related damping, one comfort biased, one sport biased. Adaptive gives you the two in one setup, plus a bit more.
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      07-12-2019, 10:03 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Isn't that highlighting the speed range where many of us drive a high percentage of our miles?

Agree we need to consider our own particular driving situation. I know (for me) adaptive definitely improves my BMW in the more challenging conditions I drive day to day. I've spent time in another part of the UK, adaptive would not be so important, as the roads are much better and it's easier to live with a passive sport suspension.
Exactly. My typical daily driving takes me on mostly well maintained roads and the passive suspension performs wonderfully. However, there’s winding backroads near my house that are poorly maintained that I took the other day to test the suspension. This is where I developed my observation about the suspension being too punishing in the 35 to 55mph range on consistently bumpy roads. To be honest, I couldn’t wait to get off the road. If I lived something where I was surrounded by poorly maintained roads, I would opt for the active suspension. Now that I’m reading my own words, this is sort of common sense.
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      07-18-2019, 10:54 AM   #64
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I have been debating on the suspension options myself for a while. This back and fourth has not been helpful for one glaring reason.

Nobody is mentioning what tire they are running. Including the professional reviews referenced. A run flat tire is going to feel jarring over bumps with any suspension. They are garbage. Passive or adaptive bump handling will be massively improved by ditching the run flats.

Every time I try to test drive m340s with the different options back to back, the dealer ends up selling on of them before I arrive.

I live in boston like a lot of people here commented. the roads are awful everywhere around boston. It sounds like passive is still very good for people in Boston which is great considering they are likely on run flats. The hang up I have is my newborn. Being able to click a button to smooth out a ride and keep my baby sleeping is worth every bit of $700 if the difference is that significant.
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      07-18-2019, 02:56 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverEnough007 View Post
I have been debating on the suspension options myself for a while. This back and fourth has not been helpful for one glaring reason.

Nobody is mentioning what tire they are running. Including the professional reviews referenced. A run flat tire is going to feel jarring over bumps with any suspension. They are garbage. Passive or adaptive bump handling will be massively improved by ditching the run flats.

Every time I try to test drive m340s with the different options back to back, the dealer ends up selling on of them before I arrive.

I live in boston like a lot of people here commented. the roads are awful everywhere around boston. It sounds like passive is still very good for people in Boston which is great considering they are likely on run flats. The hang up I have is my newborn. Being able to click a button to smooth out a ride and keep my baby sleeping is worth every bit of $700 if the difference is that significant.
I drove both passive and adaptive back-to-back before I ordered my M340, and made sure both cars were running the same wheel/tire option - staggered set up (which I knew I was getting) on performance runflats (I wanted to drive, and ordered, non-runflats, but the dealer had to bring in the adaptive suspension car from their sister dealership, and I made sure it had staggered, but all their cars had runflats, so I selected the passive car to test drive to match). The tires weren't the same - Bridgestone on the adaptive and Goodyear on the passive - but I don't think that could have made too much of a difference. Even with the adaptive in Comfort, I found the passive suspension to be the more comfortable of the two. I don't like to agree with Motor Trend about much, but I found the adaptive to be a more jiggly/brittle ride, that never seemed to relax. The difference was noticeable immediately, even on the pretty smooth roads by the dealer. I drove the same 20 minute route at the same speeds, and ultimately decided on the passive suspension with the cooling and high performance tire package, even though I believed going in I was going to get the adaptive. I consider myself a fairly aggressive driver, and would never buy a BMW without the sport suspension, but I admit I am coming from a 2010 e60 550 with the MSport package, on which I have Michelin Pilot Sport 4s tires, which has the type of ride that BMW built its reputation on - amazingly agile and tenacious when pushed, but also comfortable. Regardless of passive or adaptive, the M340 has a more sporting oriented ride than my 550, but given that most of the time I am tooling around town at relatively low speeds, and I also take multiple highway trips of a few hours every month or so, I decided I wanted what I felt was the more comfortable suspension (and I know my wife and other passengers will appreciate it, too). I really think anyone who is thinking about it owes it to themselves to go to the trouble of driving both back-to-back. That's my $0.02 (or perhaps $0.05).
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      07-18-2019, 03:52 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friedo225 View Post
I drove both passive and adaptive back-to-back before I ordered my M340, and made sure both cars were running the same wheel/tire option - staggered set up (which I knew I was getting) on performance runflats (I wanted to drive, and ordered, non-runflats, but the dealer had to bring in the adaptive suspension car from their sister dealership, and I made sure it had staggered, but all their cars had runflats, so I selected the passive car to test drive to match). The tires weren't the same - Bridgestone on the adaptive and Goodyear on the passive - but I don't think that could have made too much of a difference. Even with the adaptive in Comfort, I found the passive suspension to be the more comfortable of the two. I don't like to agree with Motor Trend about much, but I found the adaptive to be a more jiggly/brittle ride, that never seemed to relax. The difference was noticeable immediately, even on the pretty smooth roads by the dealer. I drove the same 20 minute route at the same speeds, and ultimately decided on the passive suspension with the cooling and high performance tire package, even though I believed going in I was going to get the adaptive. I consider myself a fairly aggressive driver, and would never buy a BMW without the sport suspension, but I admit I am coming from a 2010 e60 550 with the MSport package, on which I have Michelin Pilot Sport 4s tires, which has the type of ride that BMW built its reputation on - amazingly agile and tenacious when pushed, but also comfortable. Regardless of passive or adaptive, the M340 has a more sporting oriented ride than my 550, but given that most of the time I am tooling around town at relatively low speeds, and I also take multiple highway trips of a few hours every month or so, I decided I wanted what I felt was the more comfortable suspension (and I know my wife and other passengers will appreciate it, too). I really think anyone who is thinking about it owes it to themselves to go to the trouble of driving both back-to-back. That's my $0.02 (or perhaps $0.05).
Yes, I figured the test drives would involve run flats. They seem to be a special order only item.
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