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      11-27-2018, 01:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
First, the spec you're calling "efficiency" rating is the speaker's sensitivity rating. While it is common for the layman to get this wrong, that detail needed to be corrected.

The larger issue I'm trying to help readers grasp, is that people are mistakenly taking their experiences of amplifier specifications in retail consumer electronics, and transposing them to all audio amplifiers. This is flawed. Amplifier specifications in other markets like commercial and OEM are respected and not nearly as prone to marketing hijinks like consumer electronics.

It's simply inaccurate for anyone to state that ALL amplifier power ratings are BS. That's what I'm pushing back on.
There are so many factors that change sound quality and volume; I have a difficult time to not believe power ratings are BS. I'll take a 75 watt tube amp over a 300 watt solid state amp any day.

I also have a hard time believing that a 300 watt class D amp is actually able to amplify the original source signal to 300 watts. There is a reason why many manufactures are looking at new amp topologies and its to get rid of noise/distortion/THD. Because certain transistor designs cause harmonics to be produced. Those harmonics end up getting amplified and cause distortion. (I'm really reaching back to a single college class here so excuse my lack of details.)

Another thing I have yet to see in this thread is DSP. With Digital Signal Processing you can make a garbage speaker sound great. DSP in audio is so advanced we can basically take out all linear distortion caused by the speaker design. Those paper cones in cheap stuff will be more prone to distortion (aka the speaker cone flexing in a way it wasn't intended). One reason highly sensitive drivers tend to have paper cones because of the weight. However; those paper cones are more likely to deform under high loads.

I'll bet when designing the new HK system, they did 2 things that lead to the different power rating. 1. They switched to a more efficient driver light materials used to manufacture the speaker cone, rubber webbing and rubber suspension materials. 2. They have been able to take these different drivers and been able to code out all the linear distortion these drivers have under load. More efficient speakers and better DSP allowed them to lower the overall power needed to get the same sound quality and output.

Going to cheaper speakers and using DSP is what the audio industry is trending towards. Bose became popular because they were the first to market devices with DSP successfully. Everyone needed "Bose Noise Cancelling Headphones" years ago.
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      11-27-2018, 05:28 PM   #24
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BMW charges the same $875 for all HK system upgrades, regardless of speaker number or amp rating.
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      01-28-2019, 09:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick776 View Post
I started this thread a while back about the H/K Downgrade to 464 Watts as per the initial press release. Now, I am in the process of ordering my G20 and notice that the BMW USA website actually says the H/K system only has 360 watts and only 12 speakers (as opposed to 16). Have they downgraded it yet AGAIN?

Are there any BMW NA reps on here who can comment? My SA does not know which is accurate.
I noticed this too. Idk what BMW's logic is with lowering the wattage for their cars' sound systems
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      01-29-2019, 03:50 AM   #26
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I sure hope they didn't! Specced mine with HK after listening to it in my friends G31 and loved it there.

In the Dutch, German and UK BMW configurators it's still listed as 464W and 16 speakers.
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      01-29-2019, 09:34 AM   #27
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Maybe the speakers are more sensitive.
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      01-29-2019, 09:57 AM   #28
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This came up in the long G20 announcement thread... the audio experts basically will tell you that wattage isn't really a good measure of system quality or volume capability. Better speakers, systems, quality, etc.
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      01-29-2019, 10:30 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
Maybe the speakers are more sensitive.
Good point. If the speakers are more efficient they will require less power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
This came up in the long G20 announcement thread... the audio experts basically will tell you that wattage isn't really a good measure of system quality or volume capability. Better speakers, systems, quality, etc.
The only spec that means anything is what the system sounds like.
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      01-29-2019, 10:41 AM   #30
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That is the same spec as the system in Z4, which has 2 fewer doors. Judging by the interior photos, I think the spec in the configurator is erroneous (you can see two speaker grills in each of the 4 doors (8 speakers), two center speakers , two underseat woofers, plus two grills in the rear shelf (2, but more likely 4 drivers), making the grand total of 14 or 16 speakers.
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      01-29-2019, 06:28 PM   #31
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I recently test drove a 2019 BMW X5 with iDrive 7 and pretty much has the same Harman Kardon system of 464 watts, and I was completely blown away by the sound!! It was full/rich with a very sweet treble! The bass was punchy and it sounded WAY better than the G30 5 series HK!

I loved this 464 watt HK so much that i decided to delay the purchase of G30 until this summer. Hopefully they will release G30 540i or the M550i with iDrive 7 and the new HK of 464 watts. I like this HK a lot better than the Burmester in my Mercedes C400.

One thing to note that in iDrive 7 BMW has dropped the 10 band EQ. It just has bass and treble settings now and hence is a lot easier to use and in my opinion.

In my view this HK is stunning and will not disappoint!
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      01-29-2019, 06:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhruvgarg View Post
I recently test drove a 2019 BMW X5 with iDrive 7 and pretty much has the same Harman Kardon system of 464 watts, and I was completely blown away by the sound!! It was full/rich with a very sweet treble! The bass was punchy and it sounded WAY better than the G30 5 series HK!

I loved this 464 watt HK so much that i decided to delay the purchase of G30 until this summer. Hopefully they will release G30 540i or the M550i with iDrive 7 and the new HK of 464 watts. I like this HK a lot better than the Burmester in my Mercedes C400.

One thing to note that in iDrive 7 BMW has dropped the 10 band EQ. It just has bass and treble settings now and hence is a lot easier to use and in my opinion.

In my view this HK is stunning and will not disappoint!
I too also have a 2019 BMW X5 with the HK sound system and a 2018 BMW 540i with the HK stereo.

I feel as the HK in the 2019 X5 is a notch below that of the HK stereo in my 540i.

I've adjusted the setting exactly in both and the 540i definitely sounds better.
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      01-29-2019, 06:53 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhruvgarg View Post
I recently test drove a 2019 BMW X5 with iDrive 7 and pretty much has the same Harman Kardon system of 464 watts, and I was completely blown away by the sound!! It was full/rich with a very sweet treble! The bass was punchy and it sounded WAY better than the G30 5 series HK!

I loved this 464 watt HK so much that i decided to delay the purchase of G30 until this summer. Hopefully they will release G30 540i or the M550i with iDrive 7 and the new HK of 464 watts. I like this HK a lot better than the Burmester in my Mercedes C400.

One thing to note that in iDrive 7 BMW has dropped the 10 band EQ. It just has bass and treble settings now and hence is a lot easier to use and in my opinion.

In my view this HK is stunning and will not disappoint!
Absolutely agree. I have a 2019 X5 with HK system - and it is superb.
Bonus is - new system reads Hi res FLAC files. So buy some from HD tracks, load them on usb and plug it in - great sound.
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      01-29-2019, 07:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyam5 View Post
Absolutely agree. I have a 2019 X5 with HK system - and it is superb.
Bonus is - new system reads Hi res FLAC files. So buy some from HD tracks, load them on usb and plug it in - great sound.
The system in my 2018 M4 reads FLAC files.
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      01-30-2019, 04:39 AM   #35
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The wattage of a speaker is not an indication of how good a speaker is. The sound quality of the speakers depend on the material quality, design and execution. Although wattage is important as it determines how loud the speaker can be, an efficient speaker however does not require that much power especially in a confined space such as a car.
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      01-30-2019, 09:04 AM   #36
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A compilation of my thoughts and info from several ssources.

Wattage, Speaker Efficiency, and Amplifier "Loudness"

Back to basics.

Watts are a measure of power similar to (actually exactly like) horsepower as 745.7 watts is equal to one horsepower. "Loudness" or more accurately sound pressure level (SPL) is measured in decibels (db). The SPL, or number of db) that speakers can produce when driven by the same number of watts is determined by the efficiency of the speaker. The higher the efficiency rating of the speaker the more SPL (i.e. "loudness" or "volume" it will produce per watt. An analogy can be made between amplifier power to speaker efficiency in a sound system and horsepower to weight in an automobile.

A measurement of overall SPL does not take in other factors that are important to the quality of sound reproduction like overall frequency response, the linearity of frequency response or distortion.


“Is it true that just because a speaker has a high wattage, say 200 watts, that it will be louder than a lower wattage speaker.”
In a word, no. There are several points of confusion here. First, speakers do not “have” wattage. A watt is a unit power and, unless your speakers have power amps built in, they don’t have any. Non powered speakers may have wattage ratings, but this is only to indicate their ability to handle power. If your speaker is rated at 200 watts that means it can handle 200 watts of power. Depending upon how the manufacturer arrived at this rating it may be able to handle a lot more than this. A 200 watt speaker with 200 watts being delivered to it may be the same volume as a 1000 watt speaker with 200 watts delivered to it. Then again, it may not.

A speaker’s ability to handle power is one factor that will determine how loud it can be. Efficiency, sensitivity, and dispersion characteristics will all contribute to its apparent loudness. Further, a speaker producing only a narrow range of frequencies may be able to get much louder than when trying to reproduce a full range of frequencies. It is definitely not safe to say a 500-watt speaker will go louder than a 200-watt speaker (though it is often the case). Besides, you also have to keep in mind that each time you double the power you only get 3dB more volume (all other things being equal), which in the grand scheme of things isn’t all that much. When choosing speakers one has to look at all of these issues at once. For example, all other things being equal a speaker with a sensitivity of 98 dB (usually rated as dBSPL with 1 watt applied measured at a 1 meter distance) that is handling 500 watts will actually be the same volume as a speaker rated at 95 dB sensitivity handling 1000 watts. This is a perfect way to illustrate how dangerous specs can be in the hands of someone who doesn’t truly understand them.

When it comes to volume, a speaker's rated wattage is only part of the equation
There seems to be some confusion when it comes to how "loud" an amplifier can get. When it comes to "volume," many only consider the amplifier's power or wattage rating, and in general, more watts does mean "louder." But while wattage is an important consideration, the efficiency of the speaker(s) that are connected to the amplifier are also an important factor in the loudness equation.

Decibels and levels
Decibels (abbreviated "dB") are a logarithmic unit of measurement that pertain to a ratio between two numbers. Okay, I can see eyes rolling and glazing over, so I'll simplify things, and attempt to keep the "math" to an absolute minimum. With a logarithmic scale, you can't just add numbers in the usual way—a doubled number isn't "twice as much," but rather, many times more. For example, 100dB is many times greater than 50dB, not just "twice as much." When it comes to "loudness," which is measured in Sound Pressure Level, (or SPL), a 10dB increase in level is roughly equivalent to a "doubling" of perceived loudness. In other words, if one amp is generating 90dB SPL and another amp is hitting 100dB SPL, the second amp will generally be perceived to sound about twice as "loud" to the typical listener.

Wattage, power, and SPL
So how many watts does it take to get twice as loud? Let's imagine two amps—one amp rated at 10 watts, and a second amplifier rated at 20 watts. The 20-watt amp is double the power of the 10-watt amp, but doubling the power only translates to an increase of 3dB SPL. Remember, in order to sound "twice as loud," you need an increase of 10dB, so while a 20W amplifier will sound noticeably louder than a 10W amp, it will not sound twice as loud. The same thing holds true at higher wattages—a 100W amp is not going to sound twice as loud as a 50W amp; assuming identical speakers, it will only be 3dB louder, which is noticeable, but definitely not a doubling of perceived loudness.

Speaker sensitivity ratings
Speakers have specifications in terms of their sensitivity and efficiency— their ability to convert the incoming electrical energy into acoustical energy. Dynamic, moving coil speakers (the type found in most cars) are notoriously inefficient, and most of the incoming power is actual-ly converted into heat, not sound. Normally, speaker sensitivity is measured in an anechoic chamber (non-reflective, soundproof room) and expressed something like this: 90dB @ 1W/1m.
Translated into English, that means "90 decibels (SPL) with one watt of power, and measured at a distance of one meter from the speaker." A more efficient speaker will have a higher number, and a less efficient speaker will have a lower number.

Putting it all together
So let's assume we have a speaker with a sensitivity of 90dB @ 1W/1m and a power handling capacity of up to 100W. If that speaker is powered with 1W of power, it will generate 90dB when measured at a distance of 1 meter. If we double that power to 2W, the SPL measurement will increase to 93dB. If we increase the power to 10W, then the SPL measurement will increase to 100dB, which is "twice the perceived loudness" when compared to 1W. So it actually takes 10 times more power to give us a perceived doubling of volume level. Since this imaginary speaker is rated to safely handle up to 100W, we could double that volume level yet again, and in theory, hit up to 110dB SPL by increasing the power all the way up to 100W. One watt=90dB. One hundred watts, or 100X more power=110dB. That's a huge increase in power but only a "doubled double" (4X) increase in terms of perceived volume levels!
As you can see, it takes considerable increases in power—in the wattage of the amplifier—to "double" the perceived "volume." This is where speaker sensitivity/efficiency comes into the equation. If we replace that 90dB @ 1W/1m speaker with a model that has a sensitivity of 100dB @ 1W/1m, the numbers change dramatically. For starters, 1W of input power will give us 100dB SPL. Remember, the first speaker required 10W to achieve that same volume level! So by installing a more efficient speaker, we can get the same perceived volume level from a 1W amp as we could from a 10W amp that is coupled to a less efficient speaker. Again, this applies all the way up to the maximum power handling capacity of the speaker. Assuming our 100dB @ 1W/1m speaker can also handle up to 100W, it can give us up to 120dB SPL; again, that's double the perceived "volume level" of the 90dB @ 1W/1m 100W speaker's maximum level of 110dB SPL.

Keep in mind the fact that prolonged exposure to sounds of over 85db can cause permanent damage to your hearing.

A passenger car driving by at 25 feet is about 60 dB, being next to a jackhammer or lawn mower is around 100 dB, a nearby chainsaw is 120 dB

150 decibels is usually considered enough to burst your eardrums,
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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-01-2019 at 08:32 AM..
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      02-01-2019, 08:33 AM   #37
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The big question is:

"Will the new HK system go to 11?"
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      01-15-2020, 08:10 PM   #38
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Hey guys,

Sorry to hijack this post but don't seem to have permission to create a new post. But this is somewhat related.

I have noticed something strange on my G20 with the Harman Kardon sound. It seems the sound is not balanced between the front and rear of the car.

If I go to the sound settings and change the fader to the rear, I have almost no sound. If I move to the front I have much more sound coming out of the speakers.

Is that something that you already noticed/normal or is my sound system faulty?

Thanks
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      01-16-2020, 05:32 AM   #39
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Imo the HK on the G20 is very good. Much better than the G30.
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      01-16-2020, 03:00 PM   #40
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I'm no audiophile but I recently had a F-series 430i GC with the HK system fitted, so I got to compare the F-series and G-series HK system back to back.

To my ears, I found the midrange and bass much crisper in the G series. Overall you can hear that the clarity is ever so slightly better in the G series. Maybe I'm biased towards my own car but I don't think the drop in max wattage of the system bear any negative consequences in real life.

Disclaimer though... I generally play my music via Apple CarPlay with Spotify. The contents are saved on my phone in the highest quality available.
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      02-09-2021, 11:48 AM   #41
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The HK surround sound in my 2020 M340i (U.K. spec) is definitely worse than the HK surround sound I had in my previous 2018 440i Coupe; it somehow sounds more hollow and boomy, less powerful (and distorts more at high volume) plus the treble is less crystal clear. I love the M340i otherwise though!
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      02-09-2021, 12:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NthKent View Post
The HK surround sound in my 2020 M340i (U.K. spec) is definitely worse than the HK surround sound I had in my previous 2018 440i Coupe; it somehow sounds more hollow and boomy, less powerful (and distorts more at high volume) plus the treble is less crystal clear. I love the M340i otherwise though!
The G20/F30 are very different acoustically from the F32/G22. Cabin dimensions and volume, as well as distance and off-axis angle to the individual drivers. May not seem like it, but you were comparing the vehicles at least as much as the audio systems.

The reason for the change in power is that the entire architecture changed from the F3x to the G2x. In the F3x there was either a HIFI amp or an HK amp. The Gxx has all moved to the RAM (Receiver Audio Module) common on all vehicles, and adds a Booster for the underseats in the HK system.

In terms of the claimed output power, we've measured an awful lot of different models of BMW/MINI factory audio systems as part of our development process, I have never measured one that came anywhere close to claimed output power. All due respect to previous posters, but this is very much the realm of inflated BS consumer audio. Pro audio is largely a different world, and sadly this isn't it.
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      02-11-2021, 09:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin @ Integral Audio View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NthKent View Post
The HK surround sound in my 2020 M340i (U.K. spec) is definitely worse than the HK surround sound I had in my previous 2018 440i Coupe; it somehow sounds more hollow and boomy, less powerful (and distorts more at high volume) plus the treble is less crystal clear. I love the M340i otherwise though!
The G20/F30 are very different acoustically from the F32/G22. Cabin dimensions and volume, as well as distance and off-axis angle to the individual drivers. May not seem like it, but you were comparing the vehicles at least as much as the audio systems.

The reason for the change in power is that the entire architecture changed from the F3x to the G2x. In the F3x there was either a HIFI amp or an HK amp. The Gxx has all moved to the RAM (Receiver Audio Module) common on all vehicles, and adds a Booster for the underseats in the HK system.

In terms of the claimed output power, we've measured an awful lot of different models of BMW/MINI factory audio systems as part of our development process, I have never measured one that came anywhere close to claimed output power. All due respect to previous posters, but this is very much the realm of inflated BS consumer audio. Pro audio is largely a different world, and sadly this isn't it.
agreed. Does your company make upgrades for the G20/G22 HK?
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      02-13-2021, 09:34 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin @ Integral Audio View Post
In terms of the claimed output power, we've measured an awful lot of different models of BMW/MINI factory audio systems as part of our development process, I have never measured one that came anywhere close to claimed output power.
I think we'd first have to establish what "claimed output power" actually is (power/bandwidth/distortion), then I'd be interested to learn if Integral Audio has been using the identical measuring parameters. I'd bet lunch BMW can verify their marketing claims in court if they had to, and IA is innocently getting different results from a different set of measurements.

Out of curiosity... What are Integral Audio's measurement parameters when determining output power?
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