[stein_325i]

1st: BMW 330i RWD - $59,220
2nd: Alfa Romeo Giulia Q2 - $52,990
3rd: Genesis G70 2.0T RWD - 44,895
4th: Volvo S60 T5 Momentum - 46,240

A bit of weird matchup to see a FWD Volvo against three RWD sport sedans but as you can see the 3-series was crowned with the top spot due to its best all around vehicle, the Giulia receiving second for being the driver's car of the group, the Genesis in third for being a great value, but not having the proper setup/spec for the best experience, and the Volvo staying behind for doing all things Volvo well, but not being sporty in any sense.

For the full article and and each vehicle's section within the comparison -> https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...020-volvo-s60/

Highs: The king of four-cylinders, most of the charm of the Alfa Highs: maturity.
Lows: Too much refinement robs it of engagement, conspicuous lack of steering feel.
Verdict: The inevitable winner not because of sentimentality but excellence.

The B48 2.0-liter debuted in 2014, part of BMW’s then new line of modular engines built around cylinders with 500-cc displacements, a spec that’s now practically industry standard, as our roster here attests. But with the robust low-end torque of a larger engine and the light and free high-rpm pull of a naturally aspirated mill, the B48 is the industry standard. Plus, it has the best EPA fuel-economy estimates of the group and likely only lost to the Volvo in our testing because nobody was inspired to push the S60. And the ZF eight-speed automatic, which is about as common to vehicles as tires at this point, is so smooth and unobtrusive that it feels as though it were developed specifically for this car.

In a region where multiple cars’ navigation systems were mistaking footpaths and coal-mine driveways for actual roads—or otherwise hallucinating roads that simply weren’t there—confidence matters. And the BMW 3-series has it and imparts it.

With its adaptive dampers, the Track Handling chassis provides an ideal balance of compliant highway ride and steady cornering behavior. The 330i is as playful as the Giulia if your right foot asks it to be, but it also lets the driver relax in a way the Alfa doesn’t; maybe it’s smart that you can’t turn off stability control in the Giulia. In the 330i, that button is right there on the center console, and you don’t need to sign a waiver to push it. The steering isn’t what we’d hoped it would be in this generation of 3-series, but the car’s neutral behavior is as welcome and familiar as a hug from your favorite uncle.

If the broad strokes of the car’s behavior are familiar, though, so too are the complaints about BMW’s pricing. But by equipping the 330i with just the $2450 Track Handling package and the $5000 M Sport pack, you’d have a dynamically identical car for $48,695. We’d particularly recommend against opting for the $1700 Driving Assistance Professional package, because BMW’s lane-keeping system stinks. It fights your steering inputs and is constantly correcting itself. Those trucks that paint the lane lines aren’t capable of weaving as much as the BMW does when trying to follow said lines.

As a modern BMW, the 330i offers myriad technologies that distract from its fundamental goodness. But ignore them and the car around you is clearly the product of generations of refinement. It’s barely heavier than the Alfa or the Genesis but feels vastly more solid. The interior design isn’t as exuberant as the G70’s, but like the exterior styling, it is simple and attractive. The driver’s seat doesn’t grab you the way the Giulia’s does, but it offers enough bolstering to keep you in place at 0.99 g or keep you comfortable for a 400-mile trip to Beckley. It’s an all-things-to-all-people-at-all-times kind of car. It’s eye-opening.

From the February 2020 issue.

[Germanauto]

They hit the nail on the head with their driving assessments of the Bimmer and Alfa. They didn't really discuss interior/build quality/tech where I feel the Alfa comes up very short.

I'd love to drive the G70 sometime.

[VipinLJ]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

They hit the nail on the head with their driving assessments of the Bimmer and Alfa. They didn't really discuss interior/build quality/tech where I feel the Alfa comes up very short.

I'd love to drive the G70 sometime.

The G70 isn’t bad for a Korean car but it’s nothing to write home about. I’ve driven the 3.3T and that was a decent car but it CANNOT be compared to the M340i/S4/AMG C43 (all of which I’ve driven extensively). It can be compared to the 330i/A4/C300 (all of which I’ve driven extensively) instead, even though the Germans are 2.0 4 pots whereas the Korean is a 3.3 V6. The Germans have it beat when it comes to interior fit and finish and build quality (except maybe the C300 - I’ve heard it isn’t that good when it comes to build quality). Drivetrain wise. Honestly. Around the city, the 2.0 cars are better. The G70 is good on the highway where you can floor it. And only in sport mode is it a beast. In other modes, it’s tamer than similar modes in the Germans. It also feels like a bigger car than the Germans. I couldn’t throw it around like I did my A4. I haven’t driven the G70 2.0T but there’s no way it can be better than the 3.3T. I’m assuming it’s worse than the 3.3T.

Now coming to the Giulia. It’s a wonderful driver’s car. You can throw it around however you want to and the car responds exactly like you want it to. It’s a very comfortable car to cruise in and it’ll make for a fun car on the racetrack. The engine is powerful. It felt as fast as my chipped A4. The A4 has the smoothest engine of the lot but the Alfa was the fastest and most fun over all. Build quality was okay. Interior tech was a let down. I seriously considered it but the horror stories kept me away. Apparently they’ve come a long way but I was still a bit scared. It’s definitely a contender, along with the Germans.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I'd love to drive the G70 sometime.

I'd say their opinion of the G70 (along with its many countless positive reviews) is spot on and applies well to the V6 as well (which is the only worthy model). Should be getting a facelift and a new base engine next year I believe.

About 85%-90% of the 3 series for 75% the price. Its a great value and handles well, has better more natural but still pretty numb EPS, engaging and agile handling, a simple and easy to use if dated tech (although likely more reliable in the long run), great safety systems (Hyundai has very good ACC and lane keep) and decent although very inspired by others looks, being that they have poached german designers. The transmission isn't as snappy as the ZF, but all around I'd say its a pretty good car, especially when you can pretty much buy one for $15k less than a 3er and still get a nice interior with pretty solid materials. I'd buy one (especially because I know great deals can be had on the used market since they have no resale).

Albert Biernmann did a good job with the G70 and I look forward to seeing what he brings to the Genesis brand now that they are furthering themselves from Hyundai.

The G70 in a way is a perfect replacement for any owners of a Japanese car like a G37/Q50, TLX/TL or IS, since the Infiniti and Acura have lost their ways and Lexus has ignored updating their sports sedans (IS and GS)

[DFW_M]

Alfa's platform was released to compete with the F30 not G20. I am curious to see what they do with the next gen vehicle if they compare this close to the G20 (powertrain + chasis, they are 3 out of 115 points behind the G20)

[Giggler]

The criticism of the driver assistance professional package is the complete opposite of my experience and I would say it’s an absolute must have option for anyone who commutes on congested roads. I’ve never had an issue with it keeping the lane or fighting my hand. Review maybe isn’t using blinker to change lanes? These are all things you figure out as you use it and learn it better.

The only problem the system has is when you keep to the right lanes and have it set to the minimum follow distance, where a lot of cars in front of you are changing lanes or merging off the freeway... the system hesitates to recognize the new gap in front of you and still tries to track the car that just exited your lane and is no longer in front of you. Solution to this problem is to keep to the left lane and apply throttle manually when it hesitates. Or increase the follow distance until the gap allows cars to come and go without the system caring. I even tested it on an X5 demo before I decided to option it on the M340i. It’s my favorite part of having this car.... greatly reduced the overall stress of driving on congested roads.

[jtundra]

Personally I love the Giulia as far as driving goes. For the price, there isn’t much else out there that competes. The downside comes when you factor in dealership experience, which has been abysmal. And yeah, the tech aspect is another area where they’re lagging behind, although MY2020 addresses some of those concerns. But the tech is still well behind anything BMW offers.

Reliability wise, I’ve had no issues with mine and all the hassles at the dealership have been due to incompetent staff. Sadly that’s enough to make me look elsewhere.

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by drF80

Alfa's platform was released to compete with the F30 not G20. I am curious to see what they do with the next gen vehicle if they compare this close to the G20 (powertrain + chasis, they are 3 out of 115 points behind the G20)

The Giulia platform employed the Ferrari engineering team and Ferrari parts bin to develop the car. It scores so high because it’s essentially a Ferrari with an Alpha badge. But the partnership with Ferrari has ended so there will be no more of that Ferrari secret sauce in future platforms. My guess is you will only see minor tech refreshes but no new engineering until it eventually transitions into an all electric platform. Without Ferrari, it has no path forward.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I'd say their opinion of the G70 (along with its many countless positive reviews) is spot on and applies well to the V6 as well (which is the only worthy model). Should be getting a facelift and a new base engine next year I believe.

About 85%-90% of the 3 series for 75% the price. Its a great value and handles well, has better more natural but still pretty numb EPS, engaging and agile handling, a simple and easy to use if dated tech (although likely more reliable in the long run), great safety systems (Hyundai has very good ACC and lane keep) and decent although very inspired by others looks, being that they have poached german designers. The transmission isn't as snappy as the ZF, but all around I'd say its a pretty good car, especially when you can pretty much buy one for $15k less than a 3er and still get a nice interior with pretty solid materials. I'd buy one (especially because I know great deals can be had on the used market since they have no resale).

Albert Biernmann did a good job with the G70 and I look forward to seeing what he brings to the Genesis brand now that they are furthering themselves from Hyundai.

The G70 in a way is a perfect replacement for any owners of a Japanese car like a G37/Q50, TLX/TL or IS, since the Infiniti and Acura have lost their ways and Lexus has ignored updating their sports sedans (IS and GS)

My only gripe with the G70 is its interior...quality seems fine but I just don't find it very visually appealing. Then as far as trim pieces go you can only have aluminum. I know it's nitpicky.

I feel like Lexus doesn't really want my business. My IS is ancient but since they refuse to redesign it, they won't get my consideration. Rumor has it that Lexus will just do a second refresh on the current IS. There is no guarantee that a 4th gen will be produced.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Giggler

The Giulia platform employed the Ferrari engineering team and Ferrari parts bin to develop the car. It scores so high because it’s essentially a Ferrari with an Alpha badge. But the partnership with Ferrari has ended so there will be no more of that Ferrari secret sauce in future platforms. My guess is you will only see minor tech refreshes but no new engineering until it eventually transitions into an all electric platform. Without Ferrari, it has no path forward.

I'm not even sure what path forward Alfa Romeo has in the US. I've read sales are abysmal and they've scaled back plans for the brand. Their product is so behind the competition I don't see a path forward.

FCA literally can't get anything right besides a couple Jeep/Dodge models and the Ram.

[RedKloud]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

The G70 in a way is a perfect replacement for any owners of a Japanese car like a G37/Q50, TLX/TL or IS, since the Infiniti and Acura have lost their ways and Lexus has ignored updating their sports sedans (IS and GS)

Acura will be coming out with the new TLX soon, let's see how it competes. If it is underwhelming, they are going to be left with just selling their SUVs - RDX and MDX.

Personally I'd like to see more competition in the segment. But right now I would not consider anything other than the German trio.

[ArchJR]

Originally Posted by RedKloud

Personally I'd like to see more competition in the segment. But right now I would not consider anything other than the German trio.

Remember when C/D would do giant 7 car comparisons in this segment, back when the G35 was the best 3 Series alternative and the TL held its own? It seems the market has since divided into two tiers, with the Germans moving further upmarket in price, tech, luxury and performance, relegating Acura to second tier "value luxury" status.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

My only gripe with the G70 is its interior...quality seems fine but I just don't find it very visually appealing. Then as far as trim pieces go you can only have aluminum. I know it's nitpicky.

I feel like Lexus doesn't really want my business. My IS is ancient but since they refuse to redesign it, they won't get my consideration. Rumor has it that Lexus will just do a second refresh on the current IS. There is no guarantee that a 4th gen will be produced.

Yes, would love to see some wood in the cabin, although I will say, since the car is quite a value, I'd be willing to let some things go, but there is a refresh coming soon, so I'm thinking they might update the switchgear since Genesis is technically now further separated from Hyundai, and as seen by the GV80 the interior will start being revolutionized more in terms of materials, designs, quality etc.

As for Lexus, I also saw the rumor of yet another refresh, what a shame. I'd love to see them do a full redesign, keep the great steering and handling, maybe increase the interior space just to make it a little less cramped inside, add a detuned version of the engine from the LS (3.5 Turbo) and a new transmission, as well as a new way to control Lexus' infotainment, they desperately need a scroll wheel instead of the track pad/mouse puck situation.

[EXE46]

Originally Posted by Giggler

The Giulia platform employed the Ferrari engineering team and Ferrari parts bin to develop the car. It scores so high because it’s essentially a Ferrari with an Alpha badge. But the partnership with Ferrari has ended so there will be no more of that Ferrari secret sauce in future platforms. My guess is you will only see minor tech refreshes but no new engineering until it eventually transitions into an all electric platform. Without Ferrari, it has no path forward.

Thanks for the insight, I was not aware of the partnership termination.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Giggler

The Giulia platform employed the Ferrari engineering team and Ferrari parts bin to develop the car. It scores so high because it’s essentially a Ferrari with an Alpha badge. But the partnership with Ferrari has ended so there will be no more of that Ferrari secret sauce in future platforms. My guess is you will only see minor tech refreshes but no new engineering until it eventually transitions into an all electric platform. Without Ferrari, it has no path forward.

Where did you get that information? I searched and beside some pieces about the quadrifoglio engine and Ferrari, I could not find anything about the partnership on Giulia and Giulia being "a Ferrari with an Alpha badge"

I'd like to read more on that. Thanks

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I'd say their opinion of the G70 (along with its many countless positive reviews) is spot on and applies well to the V6 as well (which is the only worthy model). Should be getting a facelift and a new base engine next year I believe.

About 85%-90% of the 3 series for 75% the price. Its a great value and handles well, has better more natural but still pretty numb EPS, engaging and agile handling, a simple and easy to use if dated tech (although likely more reliable in the long run), great safety systems (Hyundai has very good ACC and lane keep) and decent although very inspired by others looks, being that they have poached german designers. The transmission isn't as snappy as the ZF, but all around I'd say its a pretty good car, especially when you can pretty much buy one for $15k less than a 3er and still get a nice interior with pretty solid materials. I'd buy one (especially because I know great deals can be had on the used market since they have no resale).

Albert Biernmann did a good job with the G70 and I look forward to seeing what he brings to the Genesis brand now that they are furthering themselves from Hyundai.

The G70 in a way is a perfect replacement for any owners of a Japanese car like a G37/Q50, TLX/TL or IS, since the Infiniti and Acura have lost their ways and Lexus has ignored updating their sports sedans (IS and GS)

In some ways I find it refreshing that Lexus hasn't updated its sporty models. I speak mainly of the gsf with its high strung, naturally aspirated v8. Many car enthusiasts lament that naturally aspirated v8 engines, with their sound, character, linear power development, and throttle response, are becoming scarce, but then ignore the gsf because it's a Lexus, and Lexus lacks the "cool factor" for enthusiasts. The next couple or few years might hold the last opportunity to get a luxury sports sedan with a na v8 that revs to 7500 rpm.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Fuller

In some ways I find it refreshing that Lexus hasn't updated its sporty models. I speak mainly of the gsf with its high strung, naturally aspirated v8. Many car enthusiasts lament that naturally aspirated v8 engines, with their sound, character, linear power development, and throttle response, are becoming scarce, but then ignore the gsf because it's a Lexus, and Lexus lacks the "cool factor" for enthusiasts. The next couple or few years might hold the last opportunity to get a luxury sports sedan with a na v8 that revs to 7500 rpm.

100% agree. I miss the throttle response and predictability of naturally aspirated engines. I had the opportunity to take a GS-F on the track and it was an absolute joy.

That being said, it's a bit inexcusable to not have updated that 3.5L V6 found in the IS350 and GS350, more or less maintaining the same engine for literally more than a decade (15 years pretty much). And a small 5hp bump halfway through that time period doesn't count.

But for all of Lexus's efforts to get into performance and challenge the Germans, long term reliability is the name of their game.

[EXE46]

GSF /RCF are good cars but very pricey for the performance. When you're a regular guy buying one car to manage numerous tasks. I wish they made a competitive car to the M340I/G70 3.3T and similar price because chances are that's the car I would have gotten. I have no clue who their target demographic for the IS currently is.

Lexus doesn't seem to care much for the enthusiast, they killed the ISF which should have never happened. Now, the word is that they're looking to debut a v8 twin turbo LCF. I mean while that sounds nice, it just wont sell especially at the price point it will be set at. Furthermore, the people who are spending that kind of money want to be seen in M8, AMG GTS etc. A 2nd gen ISF would have been their best bet as the enthusiast car and should have been made alongside the 3IS. It would have brought new enthusiasts as well as sustain those of us who were already part of the IS camp.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by EXE46

GSF /RCF are good cars but very pricey for the performance. When you're a regular guy buying one car to manage numerous tasks. I wish they made a competitive car to the M340I/G70 3.3T and similar price because chances are that's the car I would have gotten. I have no clue who their target demographic for the IS currently is.

Lexus doesn't seem to care much for the enthusiast, they killed the ISF which should have never happened. Now, the word is that they're looking to debut a v8 twin turbo LCF. I mean while that sounds nice, it just wont sell especially at the price point it will be set at and the people who are spending that kind of money, want to be seen in M8, AMG GTS etc. ISF would have been their best bet as the enthusiast car. It would bring new enthusiasts and sustain those of us who were already part of the IS camp.

Lexus's internal struggle as of the past 10 years has been the decision between maintaining reliability, which tends to conflict with cutting edge technology and performance, and offering the latest and greatest in tech and performance.

It's not so much that they don't have the capability to do so. And they're not hurting for money the way Nissan/Infiniti is, so they obviously can throw money at development (the LFA is proof of that). I truly think that despite their best marketing efforts, they won't be able to truly penetrate the upper echelons of performance and tech like the Germans as long as their main production/developmental focus is long term reliability. I would have LOVED a proper m340i competitor from Lexus, with good tech.

And that's how I find myself in a BMW. I just needed some excitement.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

100% agree. I miss the throttle response and predictability of naturally aspirated engines. I had the opportunity to take a GS-F on the track and it was an absolute joy.

That being said, it's a bit inexcusable to not have updated that 3.5L V6 found in the IS350 and GS350, more or less maintaining the same engine for literally more than a decade (15 years pretty much). And a small 5hp bump halfway through that time period doesn't count.

But for all of Lexus's efforts to get into performance and challenge the Germans, long term reliability is the name of their game.

The gsf is the only model from their line up that I'm interested in. In regard to their other models, I agree, their pretty boring. I'd be willing to deal with the dated infotainment and all that for the v8 though. I realize that for a serious enthusiast, it's slower on the track than an m3/4, but I think it would still be a fun, comfortable, and reliable daily that you can bring to a track.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Fuller

The gsf is the only model from their line up that I'm interested in. In regard to their other models, I agree, their pretty boring. I'd be willing to deal with the dated infotainment and all that for the v8 though. I realize that for a serious enthusiast, it's slower on the track than an m3/4, but I think it would still be a fun, comfortable, and reliable daily that you can bring to a track.

100% agree, GS-F is still a super fun car, and one that really stuck with me the last time I drove it.

In today's crazed horsepower world, it may not have the biggest numbers, but it has the engaging handling and amazing feel and sound of a naturally aspirated engine, that allows you to work for the power rather than just being handed it. Sure it doesn't have the tech or all around polish the M5 has, but the GS-F is still plenty daily-able, has great interior comfort, materials and quality, the handling to have fun, and best of all, great Toyota reliability.

In my opinion, and I'm sure its a controversial one here on the forums, the M5 has been becoming too concerned with speed and horsepower over engaging handling. While the car is becoming blisteringly fast with every generation, it also becomes more sterile/insulated, has less drama (the good kind of drama), and less engaging than before.

My friend said something very important when we drove the M5 at the M-Town Event last year, "When did going so fast become boring."

[mike@x-ph.com]

Thank you for sharing