[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

It wouldn’t hurt to wait until spring. But, I would get a 2022, not a 2023, because next year BMW is going to ruin the dashboard of the G20.

The exact opposite, IMO.
Wait till 2023 models so that you could get idirve 8 which looks much better.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

The exact opposite, IMO.
Wait till 2023 models so that you could get idirve 8 which looks much better.

And a long ipad for a dash that looks like something you would buy an 8 yr old from Toys R Us. I guess some people like that sort of thing.

[RustyNail19]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

And a long ipad for a dash that looks like something you would buy an 8 yr old from Toys R Us. I guess some people like that sort of thing.

Agreed

[premier3is]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

The exact opposite, IMO.
Wait till 2023 models so that you could get idirve 8 which looks much better.

Looks like someone grabbed Velcro and stuck on 2 iPads on the dash… looks like utter shit and they didn't even have the intelligence to wrap anything around it. Actually one of the main reasons why I wouldn't consider getting into a 2023 model.

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

And a long ipad for a dash that looks like something you would buy an 8 yr old from Toys R Us. I guess some people like that sort of thing.

I agree! But this is the direction all carmakers are going in if you’re paying attention. This has a lot to do with the global chip shortage and the desire of auto manufacturers to integrate their systems into fewer components. It takes way more chips, more wiring, more complexity, to create all of the buttons and separate dashes and center console etc. One screen that does everything with few/no buttons makes everything easier for the manufacture. It’s just the way things are gonna be from now on.

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by Giggler

I agree! But this is the direction all carmakers are going in if you’re paying attention. This has a lot to do with the global chip shortage and the desire of auto manufacturers to integrate their systems into fewer components. It takes way more chips, more wiring, more complexity, to create all of the buttons and separate dashes and center console etc. One screen that does everything with few/no buttons makes everything easier for the manufacture. It’s just the way things are gonna be from now on.

I don't think this has anything to do with the global chip shortage as that is a recent phenomenon. The transition to simple touchpad type systems and less old school dials and buttons has been ongoing for quite some time. I also don't see how some of the old type control mechanisms would all use chips either. I would think it's the opposite. The more "convenient" functionalities appear to be, there's a reason for that and it's more often than not the additional use of sensors and electronic components in lieu of the hard mechanical switches. I could be wrong but in any case, the chip shortage is not what is driving the vehicle design changes.

In fact, I will add that the subject matter of new BMWs coming equipped without "touchscreens" is a direct result of the aforementioned chip shortage.

[RustyNail19]

Originally Posted by Giggler

I agree! But this is the direction all carmakers are going in if you’re paying attention. This has a lot to do with the global chip shortage and the desire of auto manufacturers to integrate their systems into fewer components. It takes way more chips, more wiring, more complexity, to create all of the buttons and separate dashes and center console etc. One screen that does everything with few/no buttons makes everything easier for the manufacture. It’s just the way things are gonna be from now on.

My biggest problem with it isn't the removal of physical buttons because I agree, like it or not, that's the way things are going. I'm not opposed to technology and big screens. The buttons are nice, but if designed well into the touch screen, I can live without most of them.

My issue is with not incorporating it better into the dash. As others have said, it looks like they took a giant tablet and attached it as an afterthought. Other brands have incorporated them much more attractively into the dash. Just to name several examples of new model cars, Audi e-tron GT, Jeep Grand Wagoneer, Dodge Ram, even on the Rivian RT1 and '22 Mercedes C Class (not great but much better) they at least look like part of the dash instead of plopped on top of it. I don't mind giant touch screens or a futuristic design, but I think the execution on the new models coming out is poor.

[Giggler]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

I don't think this has anything to do with the global chip shortage as that is a recent phenomenon. The transition to simple touchpad type systems and less old school dials and buttons has been ongoing for quite some time. I also don't see how some of the old type control mechanisms would all use chips either. I would think it's the opposite. The more "convenient" functionalities appear to be, there's a reason for that and it's more often than not the additional use of sensors and electronic components in lieu of the hard mechanical switches. I could be wrong but in any case, the chip shortage is not what is driving the vehicle design changes.

In fact, I will add that the subject matter of new BMWs coming equipped without "touchscreens" is a direct result of the aforementioned chip shortage.

The automotive chip shortage has been a problem long before it made headlines. I am invested in certain aspects of the automotive industry and have read plenty of articles on the matter. Legacy chip manufacturers are aging and inefficient. They are vulnerable to power outages, machinery breakdowns, and various other disruptions. These factories are the ones that make bespoke circuit board designs for many car makers, and lead times can be excessively long (only made worse by COVID). As a result of these problems, it’s been an ongoing goal for automakers in general to simplify/minimize their interior electronics/infotainment designs to require fewer of these legacy circuit boards.

I’m just glad BMW is still using the iDrive knob/control unit, gear selector, steering wheel buttons in iDrive8… Tesla is an extreme example of oversimplification to require fewer bespoke circuit boards. The fact that all of the model3 functions must be controlled through the central touchscreen is the reason I’ll never own one, but it’s also the reason why they’ve survived the chip shortage with fewer production setbacks compared to others.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Giggler

I agree! But this is the direction all carmakers are going in if you’re paying attention. This has a lot to do with the global chip shortage and the desire of auto manufacturers to integrate their systems into fewer components. It takes way more chips, more wiring, more complexity, to create all of the buttons and separate dashes and center console etc. One screen that does everything with few/no buttons makes everything easier for the manufacture. It’s just the way things are gonna be from now on.

Rusty Nail gave some good examples and I would add Porsche for sure. I think they do the best job. Volvo's look pretty good too.

But not having a dash and then tacking a long ipad on top is ridiculous. At least they could wrap it and integrate so it looks nice, but apparently they want to make it look like a cheap KIA. In fact, even what KIA is doing is better. Should we expect that from BMW?

[drakensoul]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Rusty Nail gave some good examples and I would add Porsche for sure. I think they do the best job. Volvo's look pretty good too.

But not having a dash and then tacking a long ipad on top is ridiculous. At least they could wrap it and integrate so it looks nice, but apparently they want to make it look like a cheap KIA. In fact, even what KIA is doing is better. Should we expect that from BMW?

I like the iDrive 8 dash, just as I like the merc dash.. the double cowl “something-to-hold-it” design is… seasoned, to say the least.

Some people like huge bezels on their displays and huge chunky frames around their pictures, but it definitely isn’t modern or minimalist, which is what the BMW interior design is trying to speak to.

Look at concept vehicle interiors… the nuclear reactor switchboard dash isn’t a focus.

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by Giggler

The automotive chip shortage has been a problem long before it made headlines. I am invested in certain aspects of the automotive industry and have read plenty of articles on the matter. Legacy chip manufacturers are aging and inefficient. They are vulnerable to power outages, machinery breakdowns, and various other disruptions. These factories are the ones that make bespoke circuit board designs for many car makers, and lead times can be excessively long (only made worse by COVID). As a result of these problems, it’s been an ongoing goal for automakers in general to simplify/minimize their interior electronics/infotainment designs to require fewer of these legacy circuit boards.

I’m just glad BMW is still using the iDrive knob/control unit, gear selector, steering wheel buttons in iDrive8… Tesla is an extreme example of oversimplification to require fewer bespoke circuit boards. The fact that all of the model3 functions must be controlled through the central touchscreen is the reason I’ll never own one, but it’s also the reason why they’ve survived the chip shortage with fewer production setbacks compared to others.

The automotive chip shortage was not nearly at the levels we're seeing now. COVID has taken it to another level completely. It's also not that simple though I know you've stated you are invested in certain markets and have read articles about all of this. I have as well. Let's just say that I'm intimately familiar with the printed circuit boards (PCB) you mentioned that are used in automotive applications.

The primary point I was attempting to make was with respect to your comment about older style designs using lots of switches/dials and all that stuff that is built into our vehicles. It is a fact that "modern" vehicles including the ones we're now talking about that use fewer dials and switches and more touchscreen applications and/or voice command functionality do in fact use MORE chips aka semiconductors. Semiconductor fabricators (foundries) have prioritized their chips for consumer devices such as smartphones and computers, so that combined with the mess of COVID has exacerbated this situation. I suppose the real problem regarding most automotive manufacturers is the fact THEY are mostly still using those older chips and corresponding circuit boards as you alluded to I think. Those semiconductor companies don't want to or can't continue to produce this old stuff. It's the automotive companies that need to get with the times.

These legacy circuit boards which are using older chips (40nm, 90nm, 130nm) still used by some automotive companies haven't invested in the change to newer, more advanced chips (much smaller footprint at 14nm, 10nm, 7nm) that are becoming more commonplace in modern vehicle technology. That means these automotive companies haven't designed new circuit boards that would utilize the newer, more advanced chips. I don't think it's the job for the semiconductor companies to do that. Ultimately the more advanced our car's systems are, the more complex the subsystems supporting said technologies become. As I noted, that also means more silicon aka "chips".

By the way, I'm not certain about the comment you made about "legacy chip manufacturers". Maybe it's simply semantics here but as far as I know, the chip manufacturers are the same. It's the auto companies that are begging them to continue to make the old stuff, not the newer, smaller chips that are prevalent with today's tech.

I'm with you as far as enjoying having some of the old school gear in our BMWs though, at least with mine. I much prefer knobs over having to do everything through touchscreen. I hate greasy fingerprints on my screen!

[RustyNail19]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Rusty Nail gave some good examples and I would add Porsche for sure. I think they do the best job. Volvo's look pretty good too.

But not having a dash and then tacking a long ipad on top is ridiculous. At least they could wrap it and integrate so it looks nice, but apparently they want to make it look like a cheap KIA. In fact, even what KIA is doing is better. Should we expect that from BMW?

Exactly. Totally agree, the Porsche Taycan has almost all of the controls on the screen but it looks fantastic IMO.

[TiMSport]

I'll take an Audi RS e-tron GT.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

I'll take an Audi RS e-tron GT.

Not that looks awesome!

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Not that looks awesome!

Right? It doesn't LOOK like an EV.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

I'll take an Audi RS e-tron GT.

Agreed. BUTTONS!!! Just because it's electric, doesn't mean it has to be ALL screens!