10-06-2020, 05:06 PM | #67 | |
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I don't know what is getting in the way of accurately understanding my posts, so, let's be clear.... I actually agreed in my prior post that all manufacturers have quality issues, legacy or not. The point being missed is that problems are not all equivalent in type or frequency per program. A vehicle is sufficiently complex in design, development, and assembly, that defects will be present as long as humans are their creators Some that are complex need detailed investigation and resolution, such as HPFP failure root cause analysis. But, some are so basic and simplistic, they deserve a forehead slap and being considered as absurd. That is why these bizarre events of bumpers falling off in rain, wood pieces in a power unit, sunroofs blowing off get such coverage. They are an inexcusable embarrassment. Analogy: If an adult fails a question on trigonometry, they go back and learn what they did wrong to prevent recurrence. If another adult cannot add 2+2 to get 4, the excuses evaporate. The two individuals were simply operating at totally different levels. The ridiculous types of failures we've seen accumulate - not just one - fall into that latter category, evidencing that they were not ready for prime time. In summary, the more complex, subtle, intricate the problem, the more understandable is its' occurrence. The more basic, simple, fundamental, the more unacceptable. Tesla seems to specialize in the latter, while the legacy brands are occasionally afflicted by the former. Dislike the brand? The same brand to which I gave $1000 for a year until they started demonstrating they fell below the most minimal quality expectations with the pathetic products they displayed in their own showroom? I don't dislike the brand. I simply don't trust them any more based on their own performance. If they improve for a meaningful duration, trust can be regained. Model Y is not helping. My 3 Series has been perfect for three years, and side by side with any Tesla I've ever seen, the quality differences are obvious. As to the market trading large volume of 3 Series, I am not surprised. I hold no illusions about current BMW owners. There was a time when the brand was lesser known and bought for the driving experience. In more recent decades, it became, sadly, a status symbol, something "cool", trendy, to show-off. I am not at all surprised that a mass of 3 Series buyers (probably mostly leasing) abandoned BMW for the newest shiny object or to go faster. Their willingness to overlook the array of obvious Tesla quality problems speaks to what motivated them to switch. Body panels don't fit? That's OK. Seals not aligned against the glass? What's a seal? Headline wrinkled and drooping? No problem. It looks cool, goes fast, is the newest thing around, and (most absurdly as noted on BMW forums), new and cool cars help with finding "partners". All sorts of reasons to switch that have no relationship to the alleged "excellence" of the total car that Tesla yearns to achieve one day beyond than their already excellent powertrain. Never conflate volume with quality. Examples in our nation's buying patterns make clear the two are quite distinct entities. Another round?
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10-06-2020, 05:38 PM | #68 |
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OK, NOW I understand: You purport to know more about what's important to buyers than the buyers themselves, and because you know the "secret BMW handshake" and all the recent BMW buyers don't, you're more discerning, as well.
Your arrogance is breathtaking, as is your obstinance. Tesla's issues are very much those of a company new to mass automobile manufacturing. But as has been pointed out, the iPhone's keyboard was inferior to that on a Blackberry. It didn't matter, though, that Blackberry had continually refined and improved their keyboard - the iPhone rendered the rest of the BB instantly obsolete. BMW (and the German auto industry in general) was exceptionally late in recognizing that EVs would do to them as the iPhone did to the Blackberry. BMW even lost a senior official after he (much too recently) publicly questioned EVs' relevance. The issues you've mentioned (which are, again, those same few that have been brought up ad nauseum on every non-Tesla forum for years, despite many of them being isolated incidents) do not negate the disruptiveness of Tesla's technologies nor have they caused anything more than minor blips in its growth. I indeed hope that the i4 proves more competitive overall than Taycan, E-Tron and i-Pace. |
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10-06-2020, 06:27 PM | #69 | |
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Nowhere is your allegation of me knowing more about the defecting BMW buyers then they do about themselves written nor suggested. What is clear is that their own motivations, of which they are likely keenly aware, are susceptible to being attracted to a variety of appeals, with quality not most highly valued among them. They are a different group than BMW buyers of a generation earlier. The problem seems to be that you apparently consider those motives less helpful to your attempt to elevate a mediocre product to delusions of "excellence". Somehow, your tangent tantrum about disruption, foresight, leading the EV revolution, and sales growth (all true, but irrelevant to this specific topic) is supposed to offset their inability to weld two body panels together so that they fit, along with all the other amateur failings Elon could have prevented with a little less hubris. Had he had more insight, he would have either acquired actual expertise (not at one time, a head body engineer with no prior automotive experience) or partnered with an outsourced company that could have wrapped a competent vehicle around his excellent powertrain. No one questions the leading edge role in EVs that Tesla has played. The issues you attempt to minimize appear to have been sufficient to plummet Tesla to the bottom of the industry. According to whom? Their own owners, in sufficient large sample size to make your anecdotes truly irrelevant! At least those owners could be honest enough to realize the trade-offs they accepted. Amazing to me how you cannot acknowledge that you enjoy your car because either, you got one of the better ones with their attempts to improve (congratulations), or because such quality issues are not that important to you. The reality of the vast number of poorly built ones is inescapable. Denying that is delusional.
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10-06-2020, 08:04 PM | #70 |
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The reality is that the vast, vast majority of the Model 3s Tesla has built are like mine, with no or few issues. Suggesting otherwise is indeed delusional.
There's no need for the vast majority of owners to ignore issues because they haven't had isssues. But you go ahead and continue tilting at windmills... |
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10-06-2020, 08:41 PM | #71 | |
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10-06-2020, 09:18 PM | #72 |
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10-06-2020, 09:26 PM | #73 |
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10-07-2020, 07:22 AM | #74 |
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JD Power’s IQS survey dings a car equally for an infotainment system that doesn’t operate the way a customer expects it to as it does for a complete engine failure, for example.
With that said, I’m done with this discussion, but I’ll leave you with this: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...mparison-test/ (cue the cries of “But the panel gaps!!!”) |
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10-07-2020, 08:56 AM | #75 | |
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If a spaceshot intended to land on Mars and completely missed the planet by a mile or by a lightyear, the mission still failed and there is still the problem of not having landed. If a consumer indicates they have a problem, whether you consider it minor or major...then, they have a problem. JDP reports that assessment and it clearly does discriminate among brands. The global auto industry trusts and relies on this data, undeterred by your skepticism. You should actually be a fan of JDP as they more closely subscribe to your theory of "quality", that it's not just a matter of a failure but also includes measures of excellence in that in assesses design problems. I've seen that article comparing carefully prepped and "massaged" cars from the PR fleet, and my admiration for Genesis is growing every day, as well as for that entire company. Genesis is building high quality, high performing vehicles certainly worth consideration vs. BMW. Tesla is only doing half of that task, based on the reports of actual owners. If, as is true for MT in their review, "crushing" a 0-60 run is your top priority (as I repeatedly suggested is motivating many Tesla buyers), then by all means, go for it. Same for those seeking novelty and new status. Just don't expect that, in-between stoplight derbies, that the rest of the car will be anywhere near equivalent in overall quality. Simple concept. Now done?
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10-10-2020, 09:22 AM | #76 |
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FWIW, I was mailed the JD Power survey form when I took delivery of my M240i. It is a voluminous survey that does ask many questions regarding ease of use and likes and dislike questions. I gave my 2'er sterling scores as it met or exceeded my expectations nearly every category.
In all honesty, if I had to complete this survey on a Model 3 (which I haven not driven nor owned), I would certainly have some negatives to say about the key less operation and the single information screen. I can say this just by watching the videos and reviews I've seen. Making a change from a key fob to a CC sized plastic that has to be held against the car to open is not to my liking. I have a cell phone but do not use it except for emergencies, so it is turned off and is rarely on my person. Walking to the car (like I can with my Mini or BMW and touch the door handle to enjoy key-less entry entry due to the small fob in my pocket), the model 3 requires I carry my cell phone (on) to enjoy that same feature or have to pull out the CC sized passkey and hold it to the car (just like pulling out out the fob and pressing the button (for a non-keyless entry equipped vehicle) to open the door or inserting a physical key into a lock. The single screen is another issue I will likely have issues with. Many will agree that having to go to the "Tablet" for nearly ever function in the car is something that takes some getting accustom to. I don't mind a big screen for information but will initially miss some of the "Simple Simon" buttons and dials we now have in our more traditional cars. Certainly, over time, a person will adjust, however, getting the JD Power survey so early in the car's life, will certainly generate many negative comments. You can bet that everywhere on that survey where I can "ding" Tesla, on these "features" I would. Likely pushing it further down the J.D. Power owner satisfaction survey. That being said, I personally like the Model 3, and think Tesla did amazing things in the short time they have been making cars. I will, unless the i4 or another EV meets or exceeds the Model 3 range and other advantages (like their battery technology and OTA updates), buy one. I will have to learn adjust to the things I don't like about it or look to another manufacturer. |
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10-10-2020, 04:49 PM | #77 |
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I am late joining this discussion. My view is that I hope BMW can't compete with Tesla and Polestar. I want great competition which will increase the speed and quality of the cars. If BMW can do better, that would be great. But simply to compete...no thanks.
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10-12-2020, 08:48 AM | #78 | |
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https://cleantechnica.com/tesla-sales/ I would be happy if the i4 can match (or come close to) Tesla's Model 3 range, and battery longevity while maintaining the BMW build quality. Which maybe was your point. |
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10-12-2020, 09:10 AM | #79 | |
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10-12-2020, 02:22 PM | #80 | |
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10-13-2020, 04:31 PM | #81 |
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You are going to love the i4. Especially the M Version.
It's the litmus test for the brand. Can BMW M sustain a new model which discards the ethos of the BMW M brand? By driving high performance through electricity?
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10-14-2020, 01:02 PM | #83 |
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https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/14/...dan-base-price
This is getting interesting. But, let's give them a year of production to see how competent they are. We certainly don't want another Tesla experience.
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10-14-2020, 03:19 PM | #84 | |
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It appears they’ve taken a more measured approach than Musk allowed and they’ve recruited some very top notch people. Their experience supplying batteries to the FIA Formula E Has been pretty cool. We’ll have to see what kind of product rolls out of their new ground up factory in the Arizona desert. |
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10-15-2020, 10:26 AM | #85 |
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https://www.magna.com/company/newsro...e-fisker-ocean
This is what an insightful leader of a novice company does to ensure a higher quality design and manufacture of a launch vehicle. Magna also assembles some 5 Series for BMW.
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10-15-2020, 11:21 AM | #86 | |
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Haha - Pure facts, I love it. Here is some more fuel to the fire. Every Tesla TFL has owned has been plagued with problems - all well documented in their videos. No taking away that Tesla powertrains are light years ahead, and thus I would still consider one, but sometimes I think going used is the way to go - let the first owner deal with all the issues and depreciation. Also, to anyone being triggered, this is not because we don't support Tesla or want them to fail - stop getting butthurt that the overall quality sucks and is well document. So well so that you would lose in court if we were on trial. We need Tesla to help push the other manufacturers to produce EV's that are competitive in charge times, infrastructure, and range. |
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10-15-2020, 02:02 PM | #87 |
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I'm not quite sure how I feel about the i4 just yet. I realize it's early and not many details have been revealed, but I am less excited than I was previously. With the standard 3/4 series already weighing in close to 4000 lbs, and the higher target for driving range, I have to imagine this car will tip the scales at 4800+ lbs in dual motor spec. That would be close to 2000 lbs heavier than the i3 and makes me a very sad boy.
I love my i3S dearly, and place it as my 2nd favorite BMW I've owned. I think it fits it's designed purpose (affordable, fun commuter) exceptionally well and was thoughtfully developed. More than enough range to get around town, room for the kids and our toys, and it drives like the small RWD bimmers of the past. It fits anywhere and can make a U-turn like a bicycle. The connected services are great (which I assume will carry over to the i4). I can be out skating with my kids, and turn the AC on using my watch so we have a chilled cabin to return to. I wish our $90k X7 could do that... It seems to me that the i4 will give a lot of this up. I doubt the sedan shape will be able to carry the kids' scooters/skateboards. I'm sure it'll be plenty powerful, but it won't be quite as nimble or turn as tightly. For long road trips we'd be taking the X7 anyway, so the extra range to me just means extra unused batteries/weight/cost. I assume it'll be like a fast 3/4 series, which tbh already exists in several flavors. I'm keeping an open mind and am still interested, and I hope the i4 is awesome, but it's a bummer to have it be such a departure from a great little car. The i3 will retire as a sweet little CFRP footnote in BMW history
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10-15-2020, 02:29 PM | #88 | |
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Looking at that JD Power chart -- if I can still do math, that means on avg people are seeing 1.7 issues per BMW, and 2.5 per Tesla. In my book that's about a couple each, and sounds about right
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