View Poll Results: DCT or traditional AT? | |||
I prefer a DCT. |
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235 | 60.57% |
I prefer a traditional AT. |
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32 | 8.25% |
Either is fine with me. |
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53 | 13.66% |
I don't care. No manual, no purchase. |
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68 | 17.53% |
Voters: 388. You may not vote on this poll |
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12-01-2019, 09:24 AM | #221 | ||
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12-01-2019, 10:05 AM | #222 |
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The ZF8 that was in my wife’s M235i was a flawless transmission. My brother’s F80 had the DCT (my F80 is 6MT) and I actually preferred the feel and consistency of the ZF8. The DCT was actually pretty inconsistent in terms of smoothness and response time... sometimes it was super fast and smooth, but then the next moment it would be slow or jerky...
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12-01-2019, 11:35 AM | #223 | |
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I agree totally that the M-DCT is not very happy rev-matching downshifts at the low end of the rev range in from 3rd to 2nd or 2nd to 1st. The true worst case behavior is when you are basically letting the car downshift on its own to avoid stalling (so never do this). This is a transmission that just doesn't enjoy driving to the shops. Since you drive a 6MT yourself, I'm assuming that you actually drove the DCT using the paddle shifts and not in 'full auto'. I'm also assuming that you got the chance to drive the car like it was meant to be used (i.e. upshifting above 6000rpm and downshifting early under braking to keep the engine in the power band). In these situations, especially when in 'S3' mode, the shifting responsiveness is superlative in my experience (and sounds amazing to boot). No ZF8 car I've driven has ever come close to that feeling. I'll accept a bit of clunkiness around town (from both the transmission & diff) for the joy I get on the twisty coast roads of Hwy 1 and at ThunderHill and Laguna Seca. Last edited by pbar; 12-01-2019 at 12:29 PM.. |
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12-01-2019, 11:56 AM | #224 | ||
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It might be because the ZF8 shift just as quick but is superior as a dual purpose transmission, which is what M cars are. It's more efficient, smoother when you're not hammering it, and when it counts just as quick. And for what it's worth I think the M2/M3 should keep the DCT, it's a more dramatic/fun transmission and feels special. But the zf makes sense on more than just cost. |
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12-01-2019, 02:31 PM | #225 | |||
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12-01-2019, 04:18 PM | #226 |
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12-01-2019, 04:27 PM | #227 |
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The market is much more competitive now - with very good offerings from multiple manufacturers.
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12-01-2019, 10:27 PM | #228 | ||
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Drives: G87 M2; E92M3 MT&DCT; M3 euro
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If ZF8 were indeed superior, supercar brands like Ferrari would have been the first to adopt it. ZF8 can't rev high and is sluggish near redline. They are just not. Quote:
It's no wonder the chief bean counter (Quintus) of M division actively pushed for DCT to be gone since F10 M5; Albert Biermann, head of the M at the time, fought to retain the DCT which is why F10 didn't go automatic. He told in an interview with C&D that one of the main reasons he left the company was that the board was no longer interested in building enthusiast cars, specifically mentioning their decision to cancel DCT for F90.
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Last edited by kyrix1st; 12-01-2019 at 10:36 PM.. |
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12-01-2019, 10:51 PM | #229 | |
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Drives: G87 M2; E92M3 MT&DCT; M3 euro
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Let's also get the facts correct. AMG has developed 8-speed DCT exclusively for their A35/A45 variants and is willing to expand the DCT lineups. As much as I'm a diehard BMW fan and a driver for over a decade I am less than pleased with their latest decisions regarding vehicle dynamics and design. I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge.
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12-02-2019, 09:30 AM | #230 | |
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That way the people who just want the 'fullest loadedest' version of the car can donate their cash to BMW and subsidize those of us who actually want a drivers car. ![]() To be honest, I'm sort of astonished at the people, even on this forum, who buy an M-variant car and then spend time complaining it isn't soft/luxurious enough for them and shilling for BMW as they gradually try to make the car more mass-market. Or who personally choose a 335 auto and then post saying that there's no reason for the M3 to have anything better. M cars were once a pretty unique proposition (and the M-DCT was clear evidence of that) - in 2 years time there will be no difference from an Audi or Merc. |
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12-02-2019, 09:59 AM | #231 | |
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12-02-2019, 10:39 AM | #232 | |
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Also, since when did an M owner care about fuel efficiency? (at least in the US, where I still laugh at how cheap fuel is compared to the UK every time I fill up!) I get through most of a tank of gas in a 20 minute session at the track - average mpg is about 2.3! Range anxiety is sometimes a little more of a problem though... especially when driving through the desert. (though I find that 7th gear on the DCT is plenty high enough for cruising) |
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12-02-2019, 10:53 AM | #233 | |
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12-02-2019, 11:19 AM | #234 | |
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It also seems to me that Porsche are able to find ways around it - and they certainly don't have the sales volume of BMW to be able to hide a few performance cars in the fleet average mpg statistics. |
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12-02-2019, 11:49 AM | #235 | |
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12-02-2019, 12:33 PM | #236 | |
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https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-flat-six-pdk/ Last edited by pbar; 12-02-2019 at 12:46 PM.. |
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12-02-2019, 12:44 PM | #237 |
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Had a 2011 M3 and a 2014 M5 with DCT transmissions and I have zero complaints with the ZF8 in my X5M and I drive in manual mode very frequently.
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12-02-2019, 12:55 PM | #238 | ||
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This is nothing more than a cost cutting exercise from BMW. |
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12-02-2019, 01:28 PM | #239 | |
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...urers-big/amp/ |
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12-03-2019, 01:11 AM | #240 | ||||
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I understand it's cheaper. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing if that was the deciding factor in bringing it to the F90 and ultimately the g80. I think cost was one of many things they considered and with performance very near the DCT, better low speed drivability, along with other performance cars using the ZF, you could make the argument that it made sense for the mixed use of an M car. However, with that being said, their halo car the M8 is basically an M5... and all the interiors look the same... and every trim has the same steering wheel and the same digital dash and etc... so maybe you're right. |
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12-03-2019, 01:18 AM | #241 | |||
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No, I don't drive in auto mode all the time. I'm 50/50. My observations... Small delay when you rev out first but the car is faster when you short shift 1st anyway. But yes, a bit annoying. Downshifts feel just as quick, up shifts outside of 1st to 2nd are very quick, but maybe a quarter second slower than the DCT. No real complaints. MUCH better at slow speeds or in traffic. I'm not tracking the M5 so it's a fair trade in my opinion. Like I already said, I would have liked to see the DCT stay in the G80. Interesting info about Quintus, I hadn't heard that yet. |
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12-03-2019, 01:31 AM | #242 | |||||
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If Mercedes pushes on with a DCT in an A class, I think its poor form for an M car to follow the masses in its segment. Mercedes - Alfa - better engine, Better Exhaust and in the case of Mercedes Better interior. Why buy an M? What an M car had over these cars was driving dynamics. The DCT is a massive part of this winning formula. With a ZF it will lose that dynamic driving advantage. I drove a Alfa quadrafoglio a week ago and all the journos raving about the ZF box must have driving a different car - it was terrible and no where near as good as our DCT. |
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