[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

To be fair though, the CSL was in Cup2Rs which didn’t exist when the ZL1 time was completed and are worth about 10 seconds on the N’Ring, and on top of that the ZL1 is 300 lbs heavier. Just equalling out tires the ZL1 should be low 7 min and either way you slice it that’s impressive especially considering it was a manual.

Based on my experience tracking my ZL1 1LE with brand new Cup 2 in 305 F/345 R, Cup2 R are not worth 10 seconds on a ZL1 1LE vs GY SC 3R, the 3R are overall better on a ZL1 than any Cup2. IMHO Cup 2 R would result in a slower Ring time, not 10 sec faster.

The 3R was designed by GY specifically for the ZLE, when Michelin didn't want to be associated with a lowly Camaro and refused to take that project :-) The result was the best DOT track tire in the world, preferred now by some of the fastest most experienced GT3/RS, McLaren 720, and GT 350 drivers among others.

The Cup 2 on my ZL1 1LE was dangerous and slippery and heat cycled out after 2 days, and many other ZLE drivers report the same. I know they're good on Porsches, but they don't handle the weight of the ZLE and I suspect the M3/M4 might also do better on 3R. I know Cup 2R is different than Cup 2, if someone proves me wrong I'll try it.

[SFVM3]

[QUOTE=jpdchicago;30474746]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

I am sure the ZLE is a great track car, especially for the money. I have seen a number of great reviews. The same reviews were not so good in terms of quality of materials and fit and finish though.
Personally I like a car with great build quality and top notch finishes (plenty of leather, alcantara and carbon fiber) if I am going to use it for both track and road. I enjoy the smell and feel of materials as much as the performance. That is a personal choice and the ZLE does not have the type of fit and quality finishes I look for. It helps keep the ZLE at a more reasonable price which is not all that bad. Hard to beat the ZLE for the money. Great to have both options.…
I am planning to track the CSL on a regular basis. I belong to a private track and tracked my M4 GTS and a race spec E46 there a number of times.
Still have not given up getting a GT3 one day but it will be a manual and I am definitely keeping the CSL. The torque in that car is unbelievable.
The GT3 won’t even come close in terms of torque but is has the best engine sound around. Better start saving...

It sounds like the track culture is different here in CA, the track-addict guys I know are definitely cross shopping ZLE, GT 350, and C8 corvette with GT3--the high end shops that I can't afford ($1200 alignments) are backed up with track builds for C8s and GT 350s (much worse interior than ZLE), side by side with the hands down favorite GT3/RS.

We have very nice private tracks like Thermal here, but I spend my time at Laguna, Willow Springs, Sonoma, Buttonwillow, Thunderhill and Chuckwalla (sadly ACS is now gone).

POC guys love Big Willow, it's always a sea of GT3 RS and kind of the proving ground for great GT P-car drivers.

[PLF69]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

Based on my experience tracking my ZL1 1LE with brand new Cup 2 in 305 F/345 R, Cup2 R are not worth 10 seconds on a ZL1 1LE vs GY SC 3R, the 3R are overall better on a ZL1 than any Cup2. IMHO Cup 2 R would result in a slower Ring time, not 10 sec faster.

The 3R was designed by GY specifically for the ZLE, when Michelin didn't want to be associated with a lowly Camaro and refused to take that project :-) The result was the best DOT track tire in the world, preferred now by some of the fastest most experienced GT3/RS, McLaren 720, and GT 350 drivers among others.

The Cup 2 on my ZL1 1LE was dangerous and slippery and heat cycled out after 2 days, and many other ZLE drivers report the same. I know they're good on Porsches, but they don't handle the weight of the ZLE and I suspect the M3/M4 might also do better on 3R. I know Cup 2R is different than Cup 2, if someone proves me wrong I'll try it.

Me and my track buddies are all transitioning or wanting to run SC3R they are the best tire right now.

Ppl here will defend BMW with a passion but BMW isn't building cars for the hardcore enthusiasts, GM, Porsche and Mclaren are.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by PLF69

Me and my track buddies are all transitioning or wanting to run SC3R they are the best tire right now.

Ppl here will defend BMW with a passion but BMW isn't building cars for the hardcore enthusiasts, GM, Porsche and Mclaren are.

Not sure about SC 3R price for your M3/M4 sizes, but for my ZLE the 19" 3R sizes are also much less expensive than same sizes for worse tires like PSC2, PZero Trofeo R and R888R.

Better and cheaper is a nice combo you don't find often anymore... it really seems like GM worked this price out with GY to make the car more affordable to track often.

GM did the opposite selecting the massive PSC2 Rs for the C8 Z06, running those will bankrupt you.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

Based on my experience tracking my ZL1 1LE with brand new Cup 2 in 305 F/345 R, Cup2 R are not worth 10 seconds on a ZL1 1LE vs GY SC 3R, the 3R are overall better on a ZL1 than any Cup2. IMHO Cup 2 R would result in a slower Ring time, not 10 sec faster.

The 3R was designed by GY specifically for the ZLE, when Michelin didn't want to be associated with a lowly Camaro and refused to take that project :-) The result was the best DOT track tire in the world, preferred now by some of the fastest most experienced GT3/RS, McLaren 720, and GT 350 drivers among others.

The Cup 2 on my ZL1 1LE was dangerous and slippery and heat cycled out after 2 days, and many other ZLE drivers report the same. I know they're good on Porsches, but they don't handle the weight of the ZLE and I suspect the M3/M4 might also do better on 3R. I know Cup 2R is different than Cup 2, if someone proves me wrong I'll try it.

On the Ring they would be worth about that. When tested on a GT3 RS they ran I think almost 2 seconds faster on a lap only about 2 km. Michelin even quotes about 1.5 seconds per km.

[Hit_Apex]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

And the comparison tracks/lengths/times being mostly used/quoted here are dead wrong...

The ZL1 1LE 7:16 time is on the 2.8 KM track
The CSL times being mostly quoted here are for the 20.6 KM distance... You guys know that right? The 20.8 KM (BMW official) time for that day was 7:20

The new BMW official best CSL time is 7:18 for 20.8 KM, so in case I need to make this crystal clear...

In 2 max effort tries by BMW the best Ring time for the CSL, driven by a great pro racer, is still 2 seconds slower than the 2017 7:16 (20.8 KM) time for the manual 6-speed ZL1 1LE, driven by GM engineer Bill Wise.

Anyone saying that death-defying 6 year old ZLE time, by an engineer driving a 100% stock (except seat/harness) 2017 built $73K msrp 6-speed ZLE, is not impressive, has never spent a serious day lapping a track.

That being said, I'm sure with enough tries and alignment tweaks the CSL will eventually beat the ZLE 7:16. GM gave it one day and was happy with their great time and packed it in.

Sorry bud, while I agree with most everything you say about the Camaro being a remarkable track monster, the 7:16.04 lap you are citing began timing at the 20.6km lap start point. At this same start point the CSL lap time for the 20.8km lap already had ~4sec on the timer.

[zapp]

Originally Posted by jpdchicago

Moot point comparing the ZLE to the CSL.
Very unlikely that anyone considering the CSL would even think about the ZLE as an alternative. Even if the ZLE was 10 seconds faster...
The GT3 is probably one of the only other cars the CSL buyer would even consider as a weekend car. And many own both.
Build quality does come into play…

The M4 CSL time is just not very impressive, but that's for sure not the only criteria to a fun car! However this thread is about the track time, not leather smell, looks or brand reputation.

Btw: I did actually go for the ZLE M6 instead of the M4s (F82 GTS/CS & G82 CSL). I'm a huge BMW fan, but the G Generation is just not for me. I'm still very tempted to also get a F82 CS though -> for the leather smell and the slick F82 looks

[zapp]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

Sorry bud, while I agree with most everything you say about the Camaro being a remarkable track monster, the 7:16.04 lap you are citing began timing at the 20.6km lap start point. At this same start point the CSL lap time for the 20.8km lap already had ~4sec on the timer.

Yes, I think the the 7:16 ZLE time was taken on the 20.6km Lap, not the 20.8km.
The website fastestlaps.com has the time listed accordingly as-well.
20.6km board:
https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife

20.8km board:
https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife-full

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

Sorry bud, while I agree with most everything you say about the Camaro being a remarkable track monster, the 7:16.04 lap you are citing began timing at the 20.6km lap start point. At this same start point the CSL lap time for the 20.8km lap already had ~4sec on the timer.

It pains me to say this but I checked myself you are definitely right :-(

Here is the quote and official GM press release that I trusted that said it was a 20.8 KM lap.

DETROIT — The 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE has conquered the Green Hell in a new video from Chevrolet, lapping the Nürburgring’s 12.9-mile (20.8 km) Nordschleife (“north loop”) in only 7:16.04, making it the fastest Camaro to ever lap the famed German track.

https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail....20Nordschleife.

I didnt know anything about 20.8 vs 20.6 before this, I assumed all Nordschleife "North loop" times were the same until joining Bimmerpost and watching these CSL videos recently. I didn't know what to look for and assumed there was no need to check. But the obvious thing is with the 20.8 distance the Start line is the same narrow white painted line as the Finish line, just around that last right corner--it's very easy to see. The 20.6 start begins .2 KM or ~650 ft past that finish line--where the ZLE timer starts.

All I can say is WTF? Are we supposed to believe that GM, Al Oppenheiser head of ZLE development, and Bill Wise the driver and ZLE engineer, didn't know they were driving 20.6 KM and notice 6 years ago that GM published it as a 20.8 KM time? That is some serious BS!!! I know it's only 4 secs and at the time of the lap 6 YEARS ago everyone would have been basically just as impressed with that time, why lie?

Maybe GM Press made a mistake in the release and then they didn't want to unwind it, but I doubt it. I will be posting this story and supporting incontrovertible evidence on the main Camaro and Corvette enthusiast sites, people need to know the truth about this (in)famous lap and amazing video.

Do you know that GM recently took the ZL1 1LE video down from YouTube and the press release link some time in the last 2 months? Luckily I saved a copy using MacOS screen video capture. Weird how GM taking it down coincided with these new CSL videos that focused attention on the ZLE vs CSL rivalry and the 20.8 vs 20.6 times, I think this had to do with the sudden and inexplicable removal of this video by GM, everyone in the ZL1 world was wondering why they would remove it.

I will be asking for answers, this is a scandal IMO. And I need to get a life :-)

[Hit_Apex]

That’s wild. I had no idea about the GM video or press release. I do know it is uncommon to record a flying full lap unless track is rented for a private session. I checked the video based on this and wanted to understand more about the history of the difference. BMW had nothing 6 years ago that could touch this, an amazing lap.

[HudsonHornett]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

It pains me to say this but I checked myself you are definitely right :-(


Here is the quote and official GM press release that I trusted that said it was a 20.8 KM lap.

DETROIT — The 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE has conquered the Green Hell in a new video from Chevrolet, lapping the Nürburgring’s 12.9-mile (20.8 km) Nordschleife (“north loop”) in only 7:16.04, making it the fastest Camaro to ever lap the famed German track.


https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail....0Nordschleife.

I didnt know anything about 20.8 vs 20.6 before this, I assumed all Nordschleife "North loop" times were the same until joining Bimmerpost and watching these CSL videos recently. I didn't know what to look for and assumed there was no need to check. But the obvious thing is with the 20.8 distance the Start line is the same narrow white painted line as the Finish line, just around that last right corner—it's very easy to see. The 20.6 start begins .2 KM or ~650 ft past that finish line—where the ZLE timer starts.

All I can say is WTF? Are we supposed to believe that GM, Al Oppenheiser head of ZLE development, and Bill Wise the driver and ZLE engineer, didn't know they were driving 20.6 KM and notice 6 years ago that GM published it as a 20.8 KM time? That is some serious BS!!! I know it's only 4 secs and at the time of the lap 6 YEARS ago everyone would have been basically just as impressed with that time, why [...]

To be fair, 20.6km was the standard that most cars were tested to, which was why I said we need to understand whether it’s the full lap or the 20.6km. It’s only recently that cars test to the full lap, but they still quote the 20.6, so that you can compare old lap times! Takes nothing away from the ZLE, that was an awesome lap.