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      07-10-2020, 03:03 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
So AWD will only be available on Competition models? When will the those arrive?
According to the preproduction drive reviews from last week, yes, it seems xDrive will only be offered for the Competition models.

Just how long AWD is delayed is unknown. A couple likely bets from forum members are spring 2021 (fast follow) or July 2021 which would coincide with the 2022 model in the USA. (Much of Europe uses calendar year so it would still be a "2021", these predictions are harder when frame of reference is unclear)
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      07-10-2020, 03:27 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by whatnotsomuchf80 View Post
So AWD will only be available on Competition models? When will the those arrive?
https://www.bimmertoday.de/2020/07/0...r-dirk-hacker/

Google Translation:
Quote:
BMW M3 & M4 2021: Interview with chief developer Dirk Häcker

A few days ago, we were not only able to experience a first drive with the BMW M3 G80 and M4 G82 , we also had the opportunity for a longer interview with Dirk Häcker. As head of development at BMW M he is already known to our regular readers from various conversations and of course he can tell a lot about the new edition of the two middle-class athletes.

In the interview, we talk about the topics of weight and lightweight construction, a possible 48-volt electrical system, the chassis technology and of course the various drive options. The top M developer confirmed the upcoming offer of an all-wheel drive variant with M xDrive and also commented on the effects of the corona pandemic on the M3 and M4.

BimmerToday.de: We are on the sixth generation of the BMW M3 and next to the second M4. The direct predecessors received a lot of praise for their lightweight design concept and did not have an unbelievably high engine power compared to their direct competitors. What was your approach to give the sixth generation even more performance?
Dirk Häcker: Of course we considered which approaches we could use to further increase the very high performance level of the predecessors. We came to the conclusion that the best way to raise the overall level is with a reinforced front axle with even more grip. With this front axle, we are laying the foundation for the significant progress that we can already present. We did this through a modified wheel-tire combination in very intensive coordination with the tire supplier, new kinematics on the front axle, a new steering set-up and of course the body is a very important part of the chassis for us. We also considered very carefully which measures we can use to improve performance. These clear advances on the front axle were the prerequisite for corresponding adjustments to the rear axle so that the car drives linearly and neutrally in the entire driving dynamics range. So, as we know it from the predecessor, but now on a different grip level.

BimmerToday.de: Higher body rigidity always goes hand in hand with higher weight. The predecessor was just under 1.5 tons at the beginning, can this also be achieved with today's crash requirements, larger dimensions and greater rigidity?
Dirk Häcker: Of course we didn't want to put on a huge increase, of course. I don't want to give any concrete figures yet, but we are also seeing the increase in wheelbase and track width, which of course also helps driving dynamics. You can be sure that we paid close attention to the subject of weight.

BimmerToday.de: With the new M440i Coupé , the combustion engine receives support from a 48-volt electrical system. Is that also an issue for M3 and M4?
Dirk Häcker: This is currently not an issue for us.
We have to weigh functional advantages, the additional weight and the expectations of the customers against each other. We believe that we are better positioned with our very good working six-cylinder without 48-volt electrical system.

BimmerToday.de: So you can say that the engine and transmission are identical to the X3 M and X4 M?
Dirk Häcker: Certainly not, but of course the basic engine and the gearbox are the same. The application for M3 and M4 is of course a different one, just like the chassis, the engine and gearbox have been independently tuned for these cars. In addition, X3 M and X4 M are not available as hand switches.

BimmerToday.de: With the X3 M, X4 M and other M models of the recent past, the competition model was already available from the market launch, with the fifth generation of the M3 the competition package only came with some delay. Can you already say what will happen to the sixth generation in 2021?
Dirk Häcker: We will offer M3 and M4 in a basic and a competition version right from the start. The basic version comes with a manual transmission and 480 hp, which means it already has 30 hp more than the competition version of the predecessor. The competition version comes with an M eight-speed Steptronic and 510 hp and will also be available from the start.

BimmerToday.de: Can you say something about the all-wheel drive variant of the BMW M3 and M4?
Dirk Häcker: Yes, we will also be offering a four-wheel drive version based on the competition engine power at a later date in addition to the variants with rear-wheel drive already mentioned.

BimmerToday.de: Is this later time in 2021 or will it only come in 2022?
Dirk Häcker: Schaunmermal (laughs).

BimmerToday.de: From the M xDrive all-wheel drive we are familiar with the 2WD mode from the M5 and M8, with X3 M and X4 M there is none. Will this mode also be available on the M3 and M4?
Dirk Häcker: We view our limousines and coupes very similarly here, so our goal, just like in M5 and M8, is a three-stage offer with 4WD, 4WD Sport and 2WD.


BimmerToday.de: Are there any other essential technical features of the new generation that we can already talk about?
Dirk Häcker: Yes and no. Of course they do exist, but we don't want to talk about them yet. We want to save some things for the future.

BimmerToday.de: Okay, then just one last question about the market situation. To what extent have you already had to adjust your quantity expectations due to Corona?
Dirk Häcker: We cannot say anything at this point in time. I believe that vehicles such as the BMW M3 and M4 continue to arouse great desires, but no one can currently plan specific figures. The situation at the moment is simply too volatile for that. However, what we have managed very well so far is to maintain our development work and thus also to achieve our development goals on time. Therefore there are now no delays in the market launch compared to the original planning.

BimmerToday.de: All right, thank you for the informative conversation!
Emphasis added.
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      07-10-2020, 04:55 PM   #223
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The timeline is the only significant disappointment I have this far with everything G8X. Everything is just too late except maybe the leaks

The one saving grace that kept me from getting something else has been COVID. I almost never drive these days, better to hold on to the F80 for now then paying $20k depreciation on a P-car standing still.
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      07-11-2020, 01:10 PM   #224
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HA the most important question didn't get translated....
Or a definitive answer...

Referencing the delayed intro of xdrive, Google Roughly translates to "we'll see"

So clearly they are playing xdrive launch close to the vest
My theories
1. Most likely - marketing planning, the delay is calculated and deliberate. either they a. want significant attention on the RWD model at launch (highlight certain aspects of rwd experience, drive demand to a specific segment early on) or b. Have an xdrive specific campaign planned that they want the M3/M4 to headline and not conflict with overall launch messaging
2. Less likely - additional development time. We have seen these cars in testing for over 2 years at this point and it's been known the xdrive variant was amongst them from day 1, plenty of time to get sorted out especially for an existing system and core platform that has other xdrive models already in existence.
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      07-11-2020, 02:37 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
HA the most important question didn't get translated....
Or a definitive answer...

Referencing the delayed intro of xdrive, Google Roughly translates to "we'll see"

So clearly they are playing xdrive launch close to the vest
My theories
1. Most likely - marketing planning, the delay is calculated and deliberate. either they a. want significant attention on the RWD model at launch (highlight certain aspects of rwd experience, drive demand to a specific segment early on) or b. Have an xdrive specific campaign planned that they want the M3/M4 to headline and not conflict with overall launch messaging
2. Less likely - additional development time. We have seen these cars in testing for over 2 years at this point and it's been known the xdrive variant was amongst them from day 1, plenty of time to get sorted out especially for an existing system and core platform that has other xdrive models already in existence.
My guess...a little bit of both.

- By launching the car as RWD only there is less to digest for the press and potential buyers. The car’s performance improvements over the old version will be cleanly and fairly on display. The AWD version will not be there to steal all the thunder.

- AWD brings a very complex multi factor toolbox of parameters to play with on the track to optimize performance and whether we like it or not ring times...The M3 is the first track focused car to get Xdrive so tuning done for the M5 and X3M might not be suitable for this purpose. BMW would want to try to extract every tens of a second they can out of this new advantage.
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      07-11-2020, 04:07 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
No, they don't want to get rid of manual, as they're the only manufacturer who is still sticking with manuals. And I'm pretty sure it's not profitable to offer manual for a dozen people in US... They don't need to lower the demand to blame the demand, as the demand is already non existent.

So there is no demand, no profit, very few additional sales, and they're still offering it. But Internet has to be toxic and cynical. 'They're plotting a conspiracy'. Sure.
Someone here on Bimmerpost posted the F80 generation M3 production numbers and around 25% were built with the 6MT. Even more surprising (or not) is that around 4000 of those 6MTs came to North America! Sign me up for the G80 6MT!

World
29,251 DCT
5,426 6MT
Total = 34,677

USA
11,509 DCT
4,548 6MT
Total = 16,057

15.6% worldwide 6MT
and
28.3% USA 6MT

Almost 84% of all 6MTs came to USA!!!
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      07-12-2020, 04:17 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
No DCT????
No, the DCT that BMW has on the shelf cannot support AWD ( Also the DCT is torque limited without doing heavy modifications for manufacture reliability- the cost to benefit ratio )

I've driven both and honestly the pros of the ZF-8 outweigh that .0002 second decrease in shift times. The ZF bangs them off pretty fast.
How are downshifts? Do they rev match and feel like a DCT? That's what I care about.
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      07-12-2020, 10:21 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
How are downshifts? Do they rev match and feel like a DCT? That's what I care about.
Check the “DCT or traditional AT” poll for bimmerposters thoughts and experiences. For a back to back comparison I don’t know of anyone I trust more here than CanAutM3 and he wrote this:

“I just test drove my buddies E90 M5 yesterday. One of my disappointments with the car is the 8AT. I test drove it back to back with my M4cs and his new 992 C4. The shifts feel much less crisp in the M5 compared to the DCT and PDK. The 8AT can't handle an all-out power shift and cuts engine power on upshift (yes, 4WD DSC off). The downshifts are not as immediate and smooth. It definitely feels less sporty. It feels heavy and sluggish in comparison. Traditional planetary automatics have come a long way, but they have not yet quite matched the sportiness and all out performance of a good dual clutch. There's a reason why all super/hyper cars are still DCT equipped”

Probably better to take further questions and discussions you have about it over in that thread.
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      07-12-2020, 11:23 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Probably better to take further questions and discussions you have about it over in that thread.
Thanks. Excellent response.
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      07-17-2020, 04:46 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The timeline is the only significant disappointment I have this far with everything G8X. Everything is just too late except maybe the leaks

The one saving grace that kept me from getting something else has been COVID. I almost never drive these days, better to hold on to the F80 for now then paying $20k depreciation on a P-car standing still.
So what are we thinking for the AWD version? 2022 now?
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      07-17-2020, 07:57 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by OF Hero View Post
So what are we thinking for the AWD version? 2022 now?
I really hope not but earliest second half 2021 seems likely for BMW to bother staggering the launch.
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      07-18-2020, 05:41 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
How are downshifts? Do they rev match and feel like a DCT? That's what I care about.

Yes rev-match

The DCT for sure is snappier and a more direct feel at 10/10ths

But at 8/10ths you won't know the difference... I'm betting as new M products are released the programming gets better. The G80 will for sure have the latest and greatest.
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      08-06-2020, 07:16 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by DocWeatherington View Post
Could be but I bet it's bigger than that, the DCT that's in the F80 dates back to 2008 so who knows.

Brace for change and let's see what the end result is. They (BMW) have a lot of smart people behind the scenes. This time next year we will know if the ZF sucks and if so how bad.
It actually dates to 2011 and was introduced on the F10 M5. The DCT found in the E9X M3 was of a very different design, optimized for high revs and bespoke to the S65.

I’ve driven enough ZF8 to know it won’t be as good as a DCT.
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      08-06-2020, 07:20 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I, too, would've loved and AWD/6MT option. I've never owned an AWD car, so there's a bit of curiosity there for me. I wonder if they just chose not to develop one because it was easier to transplant the M5's AWD system over to the G8X and save development time.
I would say it is to save development and production cost...
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      08-06-2020, 07:24 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
The M5 AWD/RWD is also the same unit in all the X M vehicles but with the RWD toggle option, electronically disabled.

Although, in theory, having the ability toggle AWD/RWD sounds cool, remember, the vehicle is now lugging around an extra 400lbs or so for the extra components. That's like walking around with skiing equipment strapped on, all year round, in case of that off chance that one day, you might end up at a skiing lodge. So to speak...
Not only that, even if the front wheel drive system is disconnected from the transmission in RWD mode, the front wheels still need to spin all the drive gear (driveshafts, front diff).
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