[spool twice]

Originally Posted by footie

I’m right in thinking that the shorter mostly city journeys you make the better the range is with an electric car?

yes, spot on. It's basically the complete opposite of an ICE car where they do better steady-state cruising where BEV's enjoy stop/go/crawl speed (basically the majority of non-highway driving).

If you drive 50/50, expect closer to EPA range. But if you drive 70/30 (city/highway), expect higher than EPA range, and vice versa.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by spool twice

can you imagine charging a 1,000 mile capable battery? how many hours would that take?

Let's say we do get to 5 miles/kWh, that's a 200kWh battery.

Even at let's say a 240V/100A station at home (and thats almost nonexistant), that's still a 10.4 hr charge, or overnight, assuming it can sustain 19.2kW rate of charging without need to trickle down after 80% SoC. On a DC fast charger @ 350kW, that's 1.75 hrs, and that's in a non-existant scenario where it would charge 350kW across 0-100%, which we know isn't even possible.

I do agree, some of these "requirements" are a bit far fetch and even unrealistic in even future state.

It looks like the "the parameters that will be of value to me" somehow becomes "requirements" to posters on this thread.

Instead of 1000 miles, how about 500 miles? @5miles/kWh that is 100kWh battery, @10 miles/kWh it drops to 50kWh, at 2x(and beyond) density.

Porsche currently can support 350kW charging, so 20-80% of 50kWh battery takes 5 mins, it is just that current home charging cannot max out that charging capability.

Although the curb weight(and heavy battery) appears to not affect miles/kWh much at highway speed, my feel is that pulling heavy loads on typical mixed driving still consume juice, so maybe 2x density tech can provide a good bump on miles/kWh.

Also even though 20-80% on 240V 30A@7.2kWh in 5 mins. looks insurmountable, I still think it is good parameter to entice innovations in many fronts.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

I will install a second charging station and we will be completely electric, except for a Mini project car and the X5 for those really long road trips because it seats 7.

Is your panel 250A or above?

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Is your panel 250A or above?

I'm getting my house upgraded to 200A next week with a 50A circuit for my L2 charger. It's not a cheap job, but the house needs it anyway.

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

It looks like the "the parameters that will be of value to me" somehow becomes "requirements" to posters on this thread.

Instead of 1000 miles, how about 500 miles? @5miles/kWh that is 100kWh battery, @10 miles/kWh it drops to 50kWh, at 2x(and beyond) density.

Porsche currently can support 350kW charging, so 20-80% of 50kWh battery takes 5 mins, it is just that current home charging cannot max out that charging capability.

Although the curb weight(and heavy battery) appears to not affect miles/kWh much at highway speed, my feel is that pulling heavy loads on typical mixed driving still consume juice, so maybe 2x density tech can provide a good bump on miles/kWh.

Also even though 20-80% on 240V 30A@7.2kWh in 5 mins. looks insurmountable, I still think it is good parameter to entice innovations in many fronts.

Did Porsche activate the 350kW charge rates? I thought it was still 270kW?

Regardless, peak charge rates are just that, and it's sustained to only a portion throughout the entire charge curve in usually a waning manner.

For that to be sustained for a longer rate, the battery would have to be larger capacity where "0-100%" is only 50-60% of the battery's full capacity - - -> more space for electrons to flow into the battery and move around efficiently since the closer you are to true battery capacity, the slower the charge rate.

If 200kWh battery on a solid state would equal the weight/size of a 100kWh lithium-ion version (doubtful since it wouldn't be a 2:1), and having 100kWh as usable, I can see it being closer to 10 mins.

But that doesn't resolve the weight issue but in practice would reduce charge times through shear total capacity alone to sustain the 350kw rate for a longer period.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by spool twice

Did Porsche activate the 350kW charge rates? I thought it was still 270kW?

Regardless, peak charge rates are just that, and it's sustained to only a portion throughout the entire charge curve in usually a waning manner.

For that to be sustained for a longer rate, the battery would have to be larger capacity where "0-100%" is only 50-60% of the battery's full capacity - - -> more space for electrons to flow into the battery and move around efficiently since the closer you are to true battery capacity, the slower the charge rate.

If 200kWh battery on a solid state would equal the weight/size of a 100kWh lithium-ion version (doubtful since it wouldn't be a 2:1), and having 100kWh as usable, I can see it being closer to 10 mins.

But that doesn't resolve the weight issue but in practice would reduce charge times through shear total capacity alone to sustain the 350kw rate for a longer period.

I am hoping 350kW(and up) can charge 20%-80%(60%) in 5 to 10 minutes on a 50kWh 2x(or more) solid state that can go 500 miles full charge.

Another point made previously by another poster is exotic light weight like CFRP is costly.

My thinking is that, similar to battery cost driven down with scale, cost reduction can also happen for these light weight alternatives with enough scale, and these alternatives can drop curb weight, which may help miles/kWh, which can in turn drop battery size and reduce charge time, and ....

[footie]

Originally Posted by spool twice

yes, spot on. It's basically the complete opposite of an ICE car where they do better steady-state cruising where BEV's enjoy stop/go/crawl speed (basically the majority of non-highway driving).

If you drive 50/50, expect closer to EPA range. But if you drive 70/30 (city/highway), expect higher than EPA range, and vice versa.

The vast majority of my journeys are just 5 miles that take in total 10-12 minutes depending on traffic so in theory I should get a bit above EPA range.

[footie]

It’s funny but currently they seem to be putting all the batteries in the floor but I read somewhere that both Porsche and Lotus aren’t going to do this with their next EV sports car, instead placing some if not most in the space usually occupied by the engine to help them create the handling characteristics of their petrol engines counterparts.

I wonder why BMW didn’t look at this idea for the i4, it would have helped rear legroom for sure.

I agree with what’s been said above battery tech needs to change, weight has to come down by a fair old margin be it through increase capacity of power thus reducing the number needed or increasing the charging capabilities so you don’t need the range because 150 miles can be added in the same time it takes to fill a tank with fuel, ideally this would be the one I would favour.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by footie

I agree with what’s been said above battery tech needs to change, weight has to come down by a fair old margin be it through increase capacity of power thus reducing the number needed or increasing the charging capabilities so you don’t need the range because 150 miles can be added in the same time it takes to fill a tank with fuel, ideally this would be the one I would favour.

For one I disagree that current tech meets 95% of all use cases, in reality the current tech meets 95% of current BEV owner's use cases, or else they won't own BEVs.

E.g. current BEV owners are conditioned to hide charging time, that does not work for many(who then don't choose current gen BEV).

Your point of 150 miles in 2-3 minutes also makes sense, e.g. if tech can eventually hit 10 miles/kWh, then 150 miles takes 15kWh, which takes 2.57 minutes to charge at full 350kW rate.

For 10 miles/kWh, 300 miles only needs 30kWh, which is huge savings of resources of current tech. This comes full cycle when one realizes that a large part of BEV industry is powered by fossil fuel.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by footie

I’m right in thinking that the shorter mostly city journeys you make the better the range is with an electric car?

Yes.

High speed is a range killer.
Go faster than about 70mph and range drops off on most EV.

There is a range difference if.you go 40mph and 70mph.

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by footie

The vast majority of my journeys are just 5 miles that take in total 10-12 minutes depending on traffic so in theory I should get a bit above EPA range.

My OBC says my average speed I travel is 23mph over the past 3 montbs, which should highlight stop/go traffic I face in my driving.

I anticipate my range will be above 350 miles , it's mostly flat here, normally above 75F throughout the year, and 99% of my driving is when it's dry outside.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by spool twice

My OBC says my average speed I travel is 23mph over the past 3 montbs, which should highlight stop/go traffic I face in my driving.

I anticipate my range will be above 350 miles , it's mostly flat here, normally above 75F throughout the year, and 99% of my driving is when it's dry outside.

What is your M4cs's mpg with 23mph average speed?

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

What is your M4cs's mpg with 23mph average speed?

13.6mpg, typically use the standard "key up" mode.

But, on a highway roadtrip I can easily get near 30mpg steady state 75mph, so I will give it that.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by spool twice

13.6mpg, typically use the standard "key up" mode.

But, on a highway roadtrip I can easily get near 30mpg steady state 75mph, so I will give it that.

With those mpg's the i4 M50 likely will be more (fuel) cost effective than M4cs for similar 0-60.

[nosnoop]

Originally Posted by footie

It’s funny but currently they seem to be putting all the batteries in the floor but I read somewhere that both Porsche and Lotus aren’t going to do this with their next EV sports car, instead placing some if not most in the space usually occupied by the engine to help them create the handling characteristics of their petrol engines counterparts.
I wonder why BMW didn’t look at this idea for the i4, it would have helped rear legroom for sure.

Lotus was talking about Mid-Engine sports car, so no, it won't be applicable to i4. No one would put the battery in the front. Once they switch to the Neue Klasse platform, space should not be a problem. Even a heavily modified CLAR like iX gives you plenty of leg room at the rear - no need to mess around with battery location.

[spool twice]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

With those mpg's the i4 M50 likely will be more (fuel) cost effective than M4cs for similar 0-60.

Yes absolutely, it fits my needs 95% of the time and will literally cost me under $4.50/charge at home from 10-80%

The only time I travel outside of town is for work (once a qtr) or to FTL/Miami area, but there are many charging stations along the route either through the free EA network, or pay to use EVgo, Chargepoint, or free city municipalities that aren't listed in random searches.

I actually suspect this car will be quicker 0-60, 1/4 mile, and trap higher than my CS, albeit by a small margin. But it doesn't matter too much for me, I rarely use the CS for its intended purpose.

...plus I don't want to be tied down with oil prices anymore. I need to cut that cord.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by spool twice

Yes absolutely, it fits my needs 95% of the time and will literally cost me under $4.50/charge at home from 10-80%

The only time I travel outside of town is for work (once a qtr) or to FTL/Miami area, but there are many charging stations along the route either through the free EA network, or pay to use EVgo, Chargepoint, or free city municipalities that aren't listed in random searches.

I actually suspect this car will be quicker 0-60, 1/4 mile, and trap higher than my CS, albeit by a small margin. But it doesn't matter too much for me, I rarely use the CS for its intended purpose.

...plus I don't want to be tied down with oil prices anymore. I need to cut that cord.

It is true gas price is spiking up, but electricity cost also is trending up too(albeit with delays). Maybe it is time to take corporate buses.

[spool twice]

the fluxuation per kWh isn't enough to swing beyond $1.00 vs $10 for gas for one refill, so I am fine with that trade-off, especially since it won't cost me a dime on the EA network for two years if I chose to use them in my area.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by spool twice

the fluxuation per kWh isn't enough to swing beyond $1.00 vs $10 for gas for one refill, so I am fine with that trade-off, especially since it won't cost me a dime on the EA network for two years if I chose to use them in my area.

The forest of free charge ports at work was my motivation to order a Model 3 SR a year ago when the price was $2k more than my current 330i. Unfortunately Tesla had no SR for me(but did switch and bait to a Model 3 performance@$20k extra), so I bought the 330i instead.

These days Model 3 SR is same price as i4 40 with similar waits, so there is no point not to get i4 40 if needed.

Home charging with PG&E without solar is not cheap, around $0.35 to $0.40 per kWh, so around $0.09 to $0.10 per mile.

In contrast, $4.45 AKI 91 gets around 32-35 miles with my mixed driving(or 40+ mpg on freeway), so around $0.13 per mile for now.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Haywood

I'm getting my house upgraded to 200A next week with a 50A circuit for my L2 charger. It's not a cheap job, but the house needs it anyway.

I have an all electric house with 225 service and all the electrician could generate for me was a 20 amp dedicated circuit. Before you make the investment, make sure that 200 will be adequate.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I have an all electric house with 225 service and all the electrician could generate for me was a 20 amp dedicated circuit. Before you make the investment, make sure that 200 will be adequate.

Yes that is a common issue and frustration among friends who consider/live with BEVs. My strategy is to not bother with home upgrades and take whatever is available, and then complement with work/public charge ports as needed.

[Haywood]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

I have an all electric house with 225 service and all the electrician could generate for me was a 20 amp dedicated circuit. Before you make the investment, make sure that 200 will be adequate.

Thanks, Steve. Yeah, when I talked to my electrician who is pretty seasoned, he said it would be enough. I don't have a huge house. Mid-size cape built in the 50's.